Editorial What made Deus Ex so great?

[curry]

Deus Ex is probably the most overrated game ever.

Explain.

It's a shooter with some RPG elements, just like Mass Effect.

 

[BLOBERT]

BROS I HAVE HE CD NEVER PLAYED IT THOUGH PROBABLY SHOUL SOME DAY

 

[villain of the story]

Deus Ex didn't dwell in the post-2005 politically correct gaming trends of emofag whining and of catering to the omega loser psyche. Everything in the game, even minor cosmetic C&C are "So Fucking Alpha", which reflects the general outlook of periods prior to mid 2000s in western gaming. Writing doesn't falter from its strict firm grip but the game is also sufficiently self-aware for those rare comic relief moments.

When you get equally cosmetic and gimmicky C&C in games today, it's usually some trite whiny needy emofag "aaaaah, ching chong ding dong" bullshit or presented in a trite whiny needy emofag bullshit attitude.

Therefore, Deus Ex is a monocled gentleman's game by mere attitude. Others are games for whiny needy emofag crowds who are too afraid to tackle anything more serious than "OMG does my companion like me?".

 

[Irxy]

It's a shooter with some RPG elements, just like Mass Effect.

Yes, but they are different kind of shooters - ME is a casual corridor shooter, while DE is a tactical one (or was, until IW).

 

[villain of the story]

Oh yeah, that is one fucking quality post that I wrote. Take it, bitch.

 

[villain of the story]

It's a shooter with some RPG elements, just like Mass Effect.

Yes, but they are different kind of shooters - ME is a casual corridor shooter, while DE is a tactical one.

Bullshit. DE is more like a single player Free For All. Game offers nice enough options to approach combat your way and can provide a challenge sometimes, but the level of AI, basic arcade FPS controls and the way you have traditional Hit Points forbids calling the game a tactical shooter by any degree. There are a few situations that benefit from a "tactical approach" but the combat in general doesn't support tactics in the same context that there is a subgenre of "tactical shooters".

 

[Black]

Deus Ex is probably the most overrated game ever.

Explain.

It's a shooter with some RPG elements, just like Mass Effect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7FEj75sVXwo

Does this look like a fucking shooter to you, dumbfuck?

 

[some guy whatever]

A bomb!

 

[Irxy]

but the level of AI, basic arcade FPS controls and the way you have traditional Hit Points forbids calling the game a tactical shooter by any degree.

AI is ok for a 2000 game and a given setting, no idea what "arcade controls" are, and zone damage is absolutely not traditional. And even if its not as hardcore as some modern tactical simulations, its still a decent tactical shooter and obviously not a consoled arcade one like ME.

 

[zeitgeist]

It expresses ultimate truths about the human condition in all aspects of existence.

 

[Elwro]

it was years before i discovered you could nuke anna navarre on the plane (of course, that comes from their use of unkillable NPCs in some areas).

Whoa, you could? Nice.

 

[praetor]

I forgot- Desu and Dark Messiah are, I think, games which represent THE BEST experience system.

You gain exp/skill points for completing objectives, exploration and advancing the story. No bullshit exp from killing goblins or something like that.
Just playing through DE and DM and then switching to Arcanum with its retarded exp system makes me cringe.

i disagree. they're both shitty because, as some other codexer put it in another thread some time ago (iirc, it was draq), both systems suffer from the same "i did some fetch quests and now i'm better with the sword" problem. the best exp system would be a non-retarded, abuse-impervious implementation of the TES system

 

[Black]

Draq is wrong all the time.

 

[the_unshaved_masses]

I forgot- Desu and Dark Messiah are, I think, games which represent THE BEST experience system.

You gain exp/skill points for completing objectives, exploration and advancing the story. No bullshit exp from killing goblins or something like that.
Just playing through DE and DM and then switching to Arcanum with its retarded exp system makes me cringe.

i disagree. they're both shitty because, as some other codexer put it in another thread some time ago (iirc, it was draq), both systems suffer from the same "i did some fetch quests and now i'm better with the sword" problem. the best exp system would be a non-retarded, abuse-impervious implementation of the TES system

What part of roleplaying don't you understand?

 

[Jim Cojones]

i disagree. they're both shitty because, as some other codexer put it in another thread some time ago (iirc, it was draq), both systems suffer from the same "i did some fetch quests and now i'm better with the sword" problem. the best exp system would be a non-retarded, abuse-impervious implementation of the TES system

TES system (or any use based system that has been used in RPGs) sucks almost as much experience based at simulating how learning works in real life. Both are extremely abstractive and from two abstractive, I'll always choose one that is more fun and rewarding, not the one that is only marginally more realistic.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Get out of here Stalker.

Now go and put it on the highest difficulty and play the game to completion. You still won't find Wizardry IV, but I think you will be surprised. And it really depends on what you mean by difficulty. In System Shock 2, most fights are unavoidable. In Deus Ex, not so. Your character build literally dictates most of your entire gameplay experience, provided you use these skills and think. Building a stealthy hacker thief, dedicated to silently taking enemies down in a non-lethal manner when necessary, then trying to run and gun your way through would be suicide. Thankfully, you don't need to run and gun your way through with the correct skills and equipment.

Deus Ex is, to me, the perfect example of what I want out of a shooter with RPG elements. Can individual elements be better? Of course, but Deus Ex is much, much more than an element here, an element there; take it as the overall whole.

What I didn't like about the game was this "you need 45 lockpick points to open the chest, or alternatively 45 hacking skill to hack the terminal" stuff. All the time the gameplay felt more like calculating with a pocket calculator than really solving a problem.

I also don't like games where equipment is over-abundant and can be found in wooden crates and trash cans. And I believe I heard this is so on all difficulty levels.

In SS2 contrast everything was sparse and had to be conserved, and this is way it should be in my opinion. I get no satisfaction from a game requiring equipment if I only need to pick up the stuff from the ground. I want to earn it, like in JA2 or SS2.

But I think relatively high of Blackadders opinions. So yeah buddy, I was only talking out of my arse, I will take your advice to play the game again on the highest difficulty. Hopefully everything will be transformed as you say, since like the premise of the game very much in theory.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

What I didn't like about the game was this "you need 45 lockpick points to open the chest, or alternatively 45 hacking skill to hack the terminal" stuff. All the time the gameplay felt more like calculating with a pocket calculator than really solving a problem.

As opposed to what? A mini game? The amount of picks/etc you need correlate directly with your skills, as it should be. Likewise, a LAM grenade also does the job, or a convenient explosive barrel (if there is one).

Oh the things you can do with those barrels....good times. Using the strength aug, picking up a poison barrel and dropping it down onto the warehouse floor at the NSF. Blasting doors open with one and discovering that some fool had been standing behind it....and the ability to hack computers, then unleashing the creatures from their pens, causing huge firefights. I can keep going on about it for hours.

I also don't like games where equipment is over-abundant and can be found in wooden crates and trash cans. And I believe I heard this is so on all difficulty levels.

Haha...whoever told you this needs to be kicked up the arse. Go and play the game through and tell me I am wrong.

But I think relatively high of Blackadders opinions. So yeah buddy, I was only talking out of my arse, I will take your advice to play the game again on the highest difficulty. Hopefully everything will be transformed as you say, since like the premise of the game very much in theory.

Transformed? You haven't even played the thing in my opinion. A few hours are needed just to do the first mission properly, probably longer, unless you know exactly what you are doing or you head through the mission like Rambo. You haven't seen anything yet. Now get on to playing Deus Ex the whole way through, by yourself. Enjoy!

 

[Excommunicator]

I forgot- Desu and Dark Messiah are, I think, games which represent THE BEST experience system.

You gain exp/skill points for completing objectives, exploration and advancing the story. No bullshit exp from killing goblins or something like that.
Just playing through DE and DM and then switching to Arcanum with its retarded exp system makes me cringe.

i disagree. they're both shitty because, as some other codexer put it in another thread some time ago (iirc, it was draq), both systems suffer from the same "i did some fetch quests and now i'm better with the sword" problem. the best exp system would be a non-retarded, abuse-impervious implementation of the TES system

TES system (or any use based system that has been used in RPGs) sucks almost as much experience based at simulating how learning works in real life. Both are extremely abstractive and from two abstractive, I'll always choose one that is more fun and rewarding, not the one that is only marginally more realistic.

I disagree significantly with what praetor said, for the same reasons Jim Cojones stated. I got a lot more enjoyment out of the less realistic but more play-adaptive models used in Deus Ex and Dark Messiah (and Bloodlines too) than I did with those used in TES games. The main lesson to understand here is that limiting gains to narrow or singular circumstance(s) compromises situations that could otherwise be more flexibile to strategic approach (most apparent in DX of those mentioned), but flexible to the lean that a player has in what activities they want to participate in (the more personal entertainment factor). Strict Use-based systems will never have that advantage, and it is a significant one.

 

[Burning Bridges]

What I didn't like about the game was this "you need 45 lockpick points to open the chest, or alternatively 45 hacking skill to hack the terminal" stuff. All the time the gameplay felt more like calculating with a pocket calculator than really solving a problem.

As opposed to what? A mini game? The amount of picks/etc you need correlate directly with your skills, as it should be. Likewise, a LAM grenade also does the job, or a convenient explosive barrel (if there is one).

I found hacking and lockpicking predictable and causal, opposed to games with clever thought out puzzles, hidden stuff, levers and such. Good, I only played the first, and the beginning of the second mission, that's definitely not enough. And admittedly the use of cameras and such in DE is not bad at all.

I somewhere still have a backupped working installation with that OpenGL patch and highres textures (deus ex new visions), what do the pros have to say about that?

 

[J1M]

Deus ex is fucking awesome for one thing: Anna Navarre.

How many of you on your second play-through thought of the many way you wanted to kill her (and the devs let us try many ways, and were rewarded for such actions). Can you name many games since then that did that? Oh that's right, NONE. It's like a gigantic sand-box and the devs said "have fun kids! BUT... we are going to keep an eye on you and act appropriately based on your actions".

Give me a fucking time machine and let me have Spector (and crew) make just a few more games with this in mind. Oh gawd please yes.

LAMS.

LAMS are amazing but you are overstating Spector's role in both games by a wide margin. Many of the game systems that you probably liked in the first one were actually the brain child of Harvey Smith. Ironically, he was in charge of the second game and it was Spector's bigger picture decisions for the studio that really sank the project.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

I found hacking and lockpicking predictable and causal, opposed to games with clever thought out puzzles, hidden stuff, levers and such.

If you prefer mini games, I cannot help you and neither can Deus Ex. I hate the things myself, as they are usually braindead affairs that ruin the game experience for me. However, unless you become a hacking/lockpicking god, you will never have quite enough tools/picks for everything you come across. As for hidden things, there are plenty.

As for the patches, I have never needed any. I just play stock standard.

Just get yourself down to UNATCO headquarters and sign up. Don't come back to me until you have finished all your missions, Agent.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Hey I was not talking about minigames, I hate that stuff with a passion. What I meant was cleverly hidden solutions as in Ultima Underworld, Wizardry 8 etc.

Perhaps I just missed those in the short time I played DE. What I do remember is messages popping up how much skill points were needed for this and for that, which the programmer part of my brain immediately recognized as pseudocode ( if skill > requirement => profit else => wait ). so all I constantly had to do was checking if I had the required skill points otherwise I needed to find another solution.

 

[Carlos' Bitch1]

Hey I was not talking about minigames, I hate that stuff with a passion. What I meant was cleverly hidden solutions as in Ultima Underworld, Wizardry 8 etc.

There are usually multiple solutions to all problems in Deus Ex, as well as multiple ways to approach objectives. I bet you won't find half the hidden things in your first playthrough. Now go and have some fun. You seem to enjoy similar games to me, so there is no excuse.

Perhaps I just missed those in the short time I played DE. What I do remember is messages popping up how much skill points were needed for this and for that

What...?

Can somebody correct me here? The only messages that pop up are the types notifying you that you have gained some skill points. Am I forgetting something here? It does tell you how many picks, etc you need to open something when you put the cursor over a lock, etc, but this is better than wasting the few you have on a lock that may not open.

Just go and play it again, all the way through. Let me know who is correct after you finish it.

 

[Burning Bridges]

Similar it is to my favorite games, but I only still wonder how the game fares against my references like Ultima Underworld, System Shock, Thief, VtmB, even Stalker Call of Pripyat and such like.

I will see how it goes.

Blackadder, I didn't mean it literally when I said "popping up a message", but I do remember that the game made it explicitly clear to me what was the exact number of skill points and tools I needed. I remember it felt like I was "paying" for the lock to open, not as if I was really picking it.

 

[Mastermind]

Harking back to 2000, the game’ll be utilising distinct ammunition types again, as well as a renewed focus on the stealth aspect which was rendered redundant in Invisible War by the poor aiming and small environments.

I dunno what you're smoking but I made heavy use of stealth in Deus Ex 2. I also hardly ever bothered with the shotgun after trying it once or twice and finding it substandard.