Divinity What makes a "Baldur's Gate" to you?

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

What is classic fantasy and why it affects us in way it does is eternal debate, which would lead to Tolkien and what is Tolkien and so on.

But if you want to see what was lost in transition seek no further than Larian's own franchise, Divinity. Just compare the look and feel of Divinity 1 to newest ones and you will see.

In a world where you start from nautiloid burned by 3 dragons as vampire or exploding wizard there is no place for peasants and soldiers, no place for childhood rogue friends with 1 gp daggers, or +2 swords or defeating kobolds giving any satisfaction. And there is no place for you.

You are soo wrong.

you have no idea how is important that wotc allowed spelljammers in BG3.

All the old D&D fans want wotc to bring back spelljammer and planescape, and BG3 is the perfect troyan horse.


Speaking of BG1 start: the bad guy in the intro is an over the top edgy fighter with a high fantasy armor AND GLOWING EYES.

You start in candlekeep, the center of knowledge of the entire planet.
The most guarded and protected library: in the last tabletop incarnation if you try to enter candlekeep with no permission 1 archmage and 4 mages appear and if they need help they call 4 more archmages for support.

and of course you also meet Elminster the first day of travel!!

So no BG was not about paesant and soldiers.

BG was about being protected by harpist and the chosen of mystra in a magical fortress.

Only people that don’t know the forgotten realms think the start of BG was “simple and humble”

you got your stupid flying spaceships in D&D and can go PEW!!! PEW!!! PEW!!! now and you could not be more happy...my god..its so depressing.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

That's the thing, form what I've seen of the D:OS games, Larian is doing corridors and labyrinths, not real open areas like in BG/2. The main thing they need to nail in my opinion is the exploration. The rest they will more or less cover. Sure, I'll detest the writing, but I know I'm in the minority about attaching significance to that.

Cyseal(D:OS) and Reaper's Coast(D:OS2) are way, way bigger than any area in any of the BG games.
These are areas that will probably take 40-60 hours to "fully" complete.

First time I played D:OS I remember finishing Cyseal and then remembering that the entire thing was basically a sidequest to my main quest and realizing there's still an entire rest of the game.

me too, and that's when I exited the game and never opened it again.

 

[Thal]

• Isometric
• Adapted D&D ruleset
• Party-based
• Story must pertain to the Time of Troubles/Bhaalspawn saga
• Travel a big non-linear open world

BG2 is of course part of the BG series despite not featuring the city, because it continues the story and features the same gameplay. Also, Throne of Bhaal was BG3, and that's also where the saga ended. Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance is not part of the series and is not even a spinoff. Having said that, I'm fine with Larian and WOTC calling their game BG3, if it secures them the resources to make a good D&D crpg. Baldur's Gates are my favourite crpgs of all time, but what Larian is doing isn't going to take them away from me. At worst their writing, plot and characters will take a dump on the series legacy, but again, that will change nothing about BG1 and 2. At best, Larian may well make a solid crpg for me to enjoy.

The real horror scenario is that Beamdog will somehow make the real originals completely unavailable, leaving us with maimed versions with their fan fiction and gameplay changes forever bolted in.

Better question: is BG 3 more BG than Fallout 3 is Fallout? Be sure to explain your reasoning in detail.

BG3, because it is more faithful to the core ideas of the series, whereas FO3 abandoned the entire core gameplay concept.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Codex as a whole also likes D&D and D&D-derivative systems. It's win-win.

From what I've noticed, 'Dex prefers AD&D 2nd followed by D&D 3.0/.5/.75 followed by 5th followed by 4th. At least, the posters whom I considered to be monocled do.

5th is streamlined shit, imo.

honestly 1st is my actual favorite, with all the weapon speed and special to hit adjustment vs. various AC for each weapon:

Also liked the stricter class restrictions, the assassin, and a few other things...

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

As I understand your post, "Balance" and "Streamlining" brought 3rd ed., 3.5, Pathfinder?

Chiefly, yes. But not solely. Balancing means, among many things, that they used equal XP progression, they gave Skills to everyone, they made features accessible to every class, etc... all in the name of balancing them, even if they didn't pronounce it out loud. This can also be understood as drifting away from the classic party composition and basics (you shoot, I hit, he casts, she picks locks, etc...) into a "everyone should be able to face up against the exact same challenges" mentality. And to me, this was the literal end of ROLE-playing. After all, what does role mean, if everyone can excel at the very same challenges? You no longer has a Thief whom you have to drag around solely for his skills, nope, he is automatically a badass ninja-tier slayer who can dish out damage faster than a railgun (in mmospeak, its smthg called DPS?).

Agreed. Though 3.0/3.5 I also like because BUILDS. In AD&D 2nd Edition, and dual-classing aside, all we are doing is leveling a template.

I'm a purist so I could never get into anything other than 2e, but for all I know, builds could be great.

exactly. I hate this shit. I roll my eyes now that everyone associates a 'thief' as a light armored 'damage dealer'..this came about because people did not like having a character who in combat did not have as much to do (and also games like DOTA, with extreme balancing) Its like everyone needs a trophy culture transferred to the forgotten realms. Over balancing is shit, it infected board games too. That and 'dice less' deterministic systems.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

everyone agrees BG 3 should be a computer game.....oh look, Bg3 is going to be a computer game!! Well then, we must agree its going to be spectacular! There simply is no other conclusion to come to. That is how it works.

It's going to be a new classic because both D:OSes were and this is D:OS with a BG makeover.

it is likely to sell well and be popular, like a big mac or popyes chicken sandwich.

 

[Roguey]

exactly. I hate this shit. I roll my eyes now that everyone associates a 'thief' as a light armored 'damage dealer'..this came about because people did not like having a character who in combat did not have as much to do (and also games like DOTA, with extreme balancing) Its like everyone needs a trophy culture transferred to the forgotten realms. Over balancing is shit, it infected board games too. That and 'dice less' deterministic systems.

The fun you can have as a thief in the context of a tabletop game doesn't work in the context of a party-based combat-oriented crpg. Adjustments must be made.

 

[catfood]

Baldur's Gate to me is riding around on horseback killing things an isometric party based D&D game that contains a good balance of combatfaggotry and storyfaggotry.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

exactly. I hate this shit. I roll my eyes now that everyone associates a 'thief' as a light armored 'damage dealer'..this came about because people did not like having a character who in combat did not have as much to do (and also games like DOTA, with extreme balancing) Its like everyone needs a trophy culture transferred to the forgotten realms. Over balancing is shit, it infected board games too. That and 'dice less' deterministic systems.

The fun you can have as a thief in the context of a tabletop game doesn't work in the context of a party-based combat-oriented crpg. Adjustments must be made.

only if you mean you have to develop the game for multi-player and co-op play which is one reason why co-op and multiplayer is such decline for party based CRPG's, it drives designers to remove specialization of classes and other tactical challenges that create tactical situation/choice. Instead they just create a bunch of different toons each with their own different left click ability that when engaged shoots forth from their (palm/knife/sword/ass/staff/dipped ballsack) and does an equal amount of damage as all of the other toons left click attack, albeit in a different color and explosion effect.

 

[Sigourn]

The tone of the writing is an important characteristic of Baldur's Gate. Basically Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale sat at different extremes: Icewind Dale was completely serious, while Baldur's Gate was very goofy.

 

[Lyric Suite]

exactly. I hate this shit. I roll my eyes now that everyone associates a 'thief' as a light armored 'damage dealer'..this came about because people did not like having a character who in combat did not have as much to do (and also games like DOTA, with extreme balancing) Its like everyone needs a trophy culture transferred to the forgotten realms. Over balancing is shit, it infected board games too. That and 'dice less' deterministic systems.

The fun you can have as a thief in the context of a tabletop game doesn't work in the context of a party-based combat-oriented crpg. Adjustments must be made.

Not when you have a party of six.

I know some people like to play solo, but those games are intended for you to have a whole group so who gives a fuck? Mages don't do fuck all either under a Vancian system much of the time, especially with restricted resting which is how those games should be played. What, should we give them free spells with cool-downs so they get to pew pew 100% of the time?

 

[Roguey]

I know some people like to play solo, but those games are intended for you to have a whole group so who gives a fuck? Mages don't do fuck all either under a Vancian system much of the time, especially with restricted resting which is how those games should be played. What, should we give them free spells with cool-downs so they get to pew pew 100% of the time?

When mages are useful, they're very useful, but thieves being the "open locks and disarm traps" class isn't anywhere near as fun as what a mage can do.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Yeah but making thieves into dps classes is such a lazy fucking solution and reeks of WoW and mobile games retardation. Maybe expand on what rogues can do in the game instead? Too teh hard, right?

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

I know some people like to play solo, but those games are intended for you to have a whole group so who gives a fuck? Mages don't do fuck all either under a Vancian system much of the time, especially with restricted resting which is how those games should be played. What, should we give them free spells with cool-downs so they get to pew pew 100% of the time?

When mages are useful, they're very useful, but thieves being the "open locks and disarm traps" class isn't anywhere near as fun as what a mage can do.

I usually just have my thieves fire away with a crossbow or try to sneak around and backstab someone, it gives them something to do. In AD&D games I have them on the look out for spell casters who begin to chant so they can try and interrupt, which is very useful even if they do low damage and don't cause a kill. Obviously a backstab can do tremendous damage if they can pull it off.

Also as he sits in the back with his crossbow he can act as a back up hand to hand defender to intercept any creature who gets past the front line or otherwise flanks us in the rear to protect our mage/spell casters so they can continue to cast spells if needed. So the thief acts as last line of defense in that regard as well.

 

[NJClaw]

The tone of the writing is an important characteristic of Baldur's Gate. Basically Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale sat at different extremes: Icewind Dale was completely serious, while Baldur's Gate was very goofy.

IWD was mostly serious, but it had some silly moments too. The most obvious one is the entire interaction with Oswald Fiddlebender, but there is also the part with Zack Boosenburry.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Codex as a whole also likes D&D and D&D-derivative systems. It's win-win.

From what I've noticed, 'Dex prefers AD&D 2nd followed by D&D 3.0/.5/.75 followed by 5th followed by 4th. At least, the posters whom I considered to be monocled do.

5th is streamlined shit, imo.

honestly 1st is my actual favorite, with all the weapon speed and special to hit adjustment vs. various AC for each weapon:

Also liked the stricter class restrictions, the assassin, and a few other things...

I think if you take the evolution of the rules it shows you the evolution of the player base. And yes, decline is the general trend.

 

[fantadomat]

You forgot to add vancian magic . Also BG didn't had an epic world defining setting,the first one was about market speculations and the second one was about some weird elf wanting to suck your powerz.

I didn't. Vancian magic was part of the ruleset, and I've added options for D&D ruleset/has to be AD&D.

Yet it is not part of the new shit,which also fallows the rule set lol. It is memorable enough to have its own vote.

 

[Twiglard]

1. Encounter design.
2. Idiosyncratic spell progression with convoluted magic protections, etc.

I could gladly live without having to strip 5 magic protection spells in every battle.

You forgot the absurdity of having to strip with a lower-level spell first, in order to strip with level 8/9 spells later. And the protections laster forever.

IMO Minsc wasn't nearly as bad as Aerie and Jaheira's scenery-chewing "neutrality".

 

[Desolate Dancer]

exactly. I hate this shit. I roll my eyes now that everyone associates a 'thief' as a light armored 'damage dealer'..this came about because people did not like having a character who in combat did not have as much to do (and also games like DOTA, with extreme balancing) Its like everyone needs a trophy culture transferred to the forgotten realms. Over balancing is shit, it infected board games too. That and 'dice less' deterministic systems.

Indeed, and the funny thing is that a Thief will become increasingly more useful even in the unmodded BG series. Backstab gets deadlier, especially for Assassins and they can one-shot many opponents later on in the game. Sure, many opponents are immune to it, but it still means that the Thief gets to do some heavy-lifting in combat. Sure, you need to do it wisely, perfect positioning, efficient weapon in the hands, Potions of Invisibility stacked for emergency, etc...

When mages are useful, they're very useful, but thieves being the "open locks and disarm traps" class isn't anywhere near as fun as what a mage can do.

This is totally subjective, if you want to be a thieving bastard, then sneaking, hiding in the shadows, picking locks and pockets is more fun for you. It's also very satisfactory when your thief backstabs an unwitting enemy mage to chunkdeath...

You forgot the absurdity of having to strip with a lower-level spell first, in order to strip with level 8/9 spells later. And the protections laster forever.

I admit that the original and even the perfected/modded BG spell system is convoluted and not intuitive, especially for newcomers. That being said, it's still fun and never really bored me, and thanks to SCS/Improved Anvil it basically got revitalized time and again.

 

[AwesomeButton]

I think magic systems in RPGs should be complex and convoluted. After all magic is a difficult discipline to study and not for everyone, this should be reflected even in the rules, helps the player to roleplay better.

 

[Desolate Dancer]

I think magic systems in RPGs should be complex and convoluted. After all magic is a difficult discipline to study and not for everyone, this should be reflected even in the rules, helps the player to roleplay better.

Complex, yes, convoluted, not so much. There must be some level of internal consistency (i.e. hard magical rules), even if wondrous things are possible within the setting (i.e. a la soft magic).

 

[rusty_shackleford]

magic is for faggots that wear dresses

 

[Ladonna]

Turn based combat makes Baldur's Gate to me. Time to get with the times people. Time to modernise.

Outdated fags crying about their RTwP, its the 20s! Get with the picture.

 

[anvi]

magic is for faggots that wear dresses

Yes you're right, now you go in first with your little sword and I'll stay back here with my meteor storms and time manipulation.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Outdated fags crying about their RTwP, its the 20s!

Joined: Aug 27, 2006