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hoverdog

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Most non-multiplayer RPGs don't use hard threshold requirements.
DKS correctly removed it from Div2 (while replacing it with hard level requirements which is comparably bad) but they just had to go back. :roll:
I guess "most non-multiplayer RPGs" doesn't include any IE games, DA:O/DA2, Might&Magic games......

I wonder /what/ they include.
IE's (AD&D's) requirements were tied to attributes, which did not scale with levels. If you had a character with 10 STR you couldn't wear plate period, unless you also got Gauntlets of Ogre Power or the like. Other than that, you theoretically were able to wield Flail of the Ages +5 or Carsomyr even on the first level. Completely not comparable.
 

Roguey

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I guess "most non-multiplayer RPGs" doesn't include any IE games, DA:O/DA2, Might&Magic games......

I wonder /what/ they include.
2nd edition D&D and old M&M use class requirements, and they are also bad. 3rd edition uses (soft) armor feats, which is somewhat better.

Soft requirements are always better.
 

Arkeus

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IE's (AD&D's) requirements were tied to attributes, which did not scale with levels. If you had a character with 10 STR you couldn't wear plate period, unless you also got Gauntlets of Ogre Power or the like. Other than that, you theoretically were able to wield Flail of the Ages +5 or Carsomyr even on the first level. Completely not comparable.
They were also tied to classes- some classes could wear some armors but not some others, etc. It's the same in D:OS. If you have a hybrid, he cannot wear the 'best' of either, etc etc.

bullshit
it seems you didn't understand my claims.
1. lvl 6 helmet needs 10 str. you don't have 10 str even with warrior up to about lvl 6 unless you really gave your warrior only str from the beginning, ignoring speed, constitution and of course perception. you get 1 point at lvl 2, one at lvl 4, one at lvl 6. keep in mind that you only get 1 AP for each 2 speed points. you make a worrior without constitution and you made him for nothing since he's supposed to be tank. so wtf are you talking about no restraints or loot scaling???

Your character, at level 1, is 5 at everything +5points you can do anywhere you want. To do level 1 skill without any risk of failure, you need 8 in your 'main stat'. This means that your Melee will always have 8 str, mage 8 int, rogue 8 dex. If you go with the simple rule of 2Main *then* 2 secondary, for non-hybrid, then you will always get 10 at level 4.

And this is ignoring that a /lot/ of equipment gives stat bonus. By level 6 you can easily have 13+ str while still having 7/8speed/con.

As for hybrid, /that's the price of being an hybrid/.


2. you have your warrior without speed because you wanted to wear that helmet at low level and you want to use a weapon 3 lvls above you (not much but even so) you might onehit mobs of the same lvl as you but fuck you if you think you can kill any monsters 3-4-5-6 levels above you with only one hit every turn. also your warrior has no perception/constitution and is gonna get killed by traps at every step.

Hahahahahahah/
3. there are quests but not lots and lots. arcanum has lots and lots, this shit has a few and i've done all of them, because even if i skipped a lot of text I talked to everybody and it's not hard to use the journal. also i don't skip blindly, i skip boring explanations or stuff like "who are you" which doesn't serve any purpose and isn't written by yeats.
'you have done all of them', sure.

4. what 3/4 ways of solving? you can give the mayors staff back in 3-4 ways? you can find work for the sailors in 3/4 ways??? what a load of crap.
Yes- you can choose to help Dietmar instead, giving the staff to the mayor will bring new quests because the mayor is 'totally not a necromancer', you can choose to give the trio jobs with a captain which will bring specific quests later, or you can choose to give them work with the fabulous five, which means you'll need to save them and then one becomes a guard and you can convince him to open the doors to treasure rooms (and the two others will reappear laters), etc etc etc.

5. difficulty checks? this is where it gets funny because like i said, you can't kill lvl 14 spiders with lvl 10 grp on normal. they just hit you for 100 poison dmg/turn even if you have resistance and there's like 5-6 of them supported by mages. also your life seems to double like every 4 levels. so if you do attack them at lvl 10 you do that at half the life you're supposed to have. and the whole argument is based on a level difference of only 4 levels. wtf do you do with a lvl 10 grp against lvl 20 mobs? where does scaling stop and difficulty check begin? just calling it something else doesn't change shit. the game would be linear even if you could run through it in every direction solely by the fact that there are level zones. whether you metagame your way through or you save/reload a hundred times till you get lucky doesn't change the game design.

Hahahahah.

6. saying you are pretty sure means you are not sure at all. i haven't found any "major skill" buffs on any equipment and i even spent hours reloading at lvl 20 chests with 1-2 legendaries/load + rares.
Saying "i am pretty sure" means i don't want to load my game to check if i am right.

7. sneaking is major skill for rogue. what else is he gonna invest in? lore, crafting, lockpicking aren't even close to the importance of "major skills" and since you get that from gear you basically have no option but to skill major skills and wait for gear. so wtf are you talking about freedom?
Sneaking is a major skill for rogue and greatly increase the rogue's power in combat, lockpicking and pickpocketing are also quite good, and are you somehow refusing to get your rogue anything but scoundrel/one handed? you should totally give him willpower/armor, if you have too many points.

8. would be logical??? so you never actually had that problem? i thought you were pretty sure you found man-at-arms buff.
Because i don't get it off.
 

Night Goat

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I really like this game, but I agree that the non-combat skills are underwhelming. If a game has skills that keep you from dying and skills that don't do that, then the latter should either be cheaper than the former or use a different currency altogether.
 

Reapa

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IE's (AD&D's) requirements were tied to attributes, which did not scale with levels. If you had a character with 10 STR you couldn't wear plate period, unless you also got Gauntlets of Ogre Power or the like. Other than that, you theoretically were able to wield Flail of the Ages +5 or Carsomyr even on the first level. Completely not comparable.
They were also tied to classes- some classes could wear some armors but not some others, etc. It's the same in D:OS. If you have a hybrid, he cannot wear the 'best' of either, etc etc.

bullshit
it seems you didn't understand my claims.
1. lvl 6 helmet needs 10 str. you don't have 10 str even with warrior up to about lvl 6 unless you really gave your warrior only str from the beginning, ignoring speed, constitution and of course perception. you get 1 point at lvl 2, one at lvl 4, one at lvl 6. keep in mind that you only get 1 AP for each 2 speed points. you make a worrior without constitution and you made him for nothing since he's supposed to be tank. so wtf are you talking about no restraints or loot scaling???

Your character, at level 1, is 5 at everything +5points you can do anywhere you want. To do level 1 skill without any risk of failure, you need 8 in your 'main stat'. This means that your Melee will always have 8 str, mage 8 int, rogue 8 dex. If you go with the simple rule of 2Main *then* 2 secondary, for non-hybrid, then you will always get 10 at level 4.

And this is ignoring that a /lot/ of equipment gives stat bonus. By level 6 you can easily have 13+ str while still having 7/8speed/con.

As for hybrid, /that's the price of being an hybrid/.


2. you have your warrior without speed because you wanted to wear that helmet at low level and you want to use a weapon 3 lvls above you (not much but even so) you might onehit mobs of the same lvl as you but fuck you if you think you can kill any monsters 3-4-5-6 levels above you with only one hit every turn. also your warrior has no perception/constitution and is gonna get killed by traps at every step.

Hahahahahahah/
3. there are quests but not lots and lots. arcanum has lots and lots, this shit has a few and i've done all of them, because even if i skipped a lot of text I talked to everybody and it's not hard to use the journal. also i don't skip blindly, i skip boring explanations or stuff like "who are you" which doesn't serve any purpose and isn't written by yeats.
'you have done all of them', sure.

4. what 3/4 ways of solving? you can give the mayors staff back in 3-4 ways? you can find work for the sailors in 3/4 ways??? what a load of crap.
Yes- you can choose to help Dietmar instead, giving the staff to the mayor will bring new quests because the mayor is 'totally not a necromancer', you can choose to give the trio jobs with a captain which will bring specific quests later, or you can choose to give them work with the fabulous five, which means you'll need to save them and then one becomes a guard and you can convince him to open the doors to treasure rooms (and the two others will reappear laters), etc etc etc.

5. difficulty checks? this is where it gets funny because like i said, you can't kill lvl 14 spiders with lvl 10 grp on normal. they just hit you for 100 poison dmg/turn even if you have resistance and there's like 5-6 of them supported by mages. also your life seems to double like every 4 levels. so if you do attack them at lvl 10 you do that at half the life you're supposed to have. and the whole argument is based on a level difference of only 4 levels. wtf do you do with a lvl 10 grp against lvl 20 mobs? where does scaling stop and difficulty check begin? just calling it something else doesn't change shit. the game would be linear even if you could run through it in every direction solely by the fact that there are level zones. whether you metagame your way through or you save/reload a hundred times till you get lucky doesn't change the game design.

Hahahahah.

6. saying you are pretty sure means you are not sure at all. i haven't found any "major skill" buffs on any equipment and i even spent hours reloading at lvl 20 chests with 1-2 legendaries/load + rares.
Saying "i am pretty sure" means i don't want to load my game to check if i am right.

7. sneaking is major skill for rogue. what else is he gonna invest in? lore, crafting, lockpicking aren't even close to the importance of "major skills" and since you get that from gear you basically have no option but to skill major skills and wait for gear. so wtf are you talking about freedom?
Sneaking is a major skill for rogue and greatly increase the rogue's power in combat, lockpicking and pickpocketing are also quite good, and are you somehow refusing to get your rogue anything but scoundrel/one handed? you should totally give him willpower/armor, if you have too many points.

8. would be logical??? so you never actually had that problem? i thought you were pretty sure you found man-at-arms buff.
Because i don't get it off.

this is getting tedious... hahaha is not a counterargument. and you can't read. yes, you can have 10str at lvl 4 but that means not spending the points on speed, constitution, perception. this is not a hybrid. a warrior 'needs' str, constitution and speed. you can leave out perception but don't tell me you're gonna leave out speed or constitution. so fuck you 4 not doing the math. at lvl 4 you have seven points to spend: 5+3 str, 5+2 speed, 5+2 constitution. or 5+5 str and 5+2 constitution or 5+2speed. leaving out constitution will get you a weakling and leaving out speed will get you 1 less AP. how the fuck will you kill lvl 10 monsters with that build??? and where the fuck do you get +stat equipment in abundance so soon in the game? and if you can't tell what equip you will get how do you spend your stat points??? will you run around with all stats at 5 till you get your equip and get killed by monsters under your level?
a second solution is not 3-4 alternative ways.
what's there to reload? just start the game, make screenshot of your equip and case closed, till then it's just some stupid excuse.
 

Shadenuat

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Bro you're wrong. You can wear anything at level fucking 1. My build for archer for example - 10 DEX, 1 archer, 1 rogue for haste. That's what I figured out on my first playthrough. 10 dex = any armor. haste = even supah overleveled bow.
Yeah it sucks that loot is so level scaled but bro first time I got bow with double damage 2-3 levels higher than I am, I used only it with haste from rogue/pyro. Low perception? bless/mass bless from Geo.

Since stats do not matter THAT much - you get them during level ups, you get perks like Biggerstronger, you get lots of items +stat, my builds are p. much - 10 points of str/int/dex from the start, items+levels into speed/constitution(or +hitpoints)/perception - depending on char.
You also will get perks like Quick Draw on higher levels (-1 AP for any ranged weapon).
 

Reapa

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Bro you're wrong. You can wear anything at level fucking 1. My build for archer for example - 10 DEX, 1 archer, 1 rogue for haste. That's what I figured out on my first playthrough. 10 dex = any armor. haste = even supah overleveled bow.
Yeah it sucks that loot is so level scaled but bro first time I got bow with double damage 2-3 levels higher than I am, I used only it with haste from rogue/pyro. Low perception? bless/mass bless from Geo.

Since stats do not matter THAT much - you get them during level ups, you get perks like Biggerstronger, you get lots of items +stat, my builds are p. much - 10 points into str/int/dex, items+levels into speed/constitutuin/perception - depending on char.

nice one, but you don't kill lvl 5 groups with that build. your chars are fucking weak. another one that can't read... wtf? you can kill lvl 2-3 with any build but don't tell me the game isn't linear. lvl 2-3 is normal for lvl 1 chars to kill. lvl 4 groups if you do it right. but that's all planed from the beginning. the point is you can't run around with lvl 1 and kill lvl 6 grps. it will be quite a stretch even at lvl 3.

Also, who's gonna heal you? 1 mage henchman for 3 other chars?
 

Shadenuat

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That's completely different point. You said you hate that you can't equip items, but I am showing you how to equip everything.
Zoned world building is a different issue. But ppl seem to actually kill very overleveled groups of monsters on lower levels and break the flow of the game. Just look at the other thread (those fucking oil barrels one-shotting ghoul near lighthouse with smart stealth/telekenisis).

I like the game, a lot, but whether he's trolling by purposefully ignoring the good parts of the game or not, he makes some good points.
No, he is flat out lying about everything.
No he's right about many skills being useless. Like Loremaster - I have 6 points in it I believe, I still can't see fucking resistances.
And many others.
 

Reapa

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That's completely different point. You said you hate that you can't equip items, but I am showing you how to equip everything.
Zoned world building is a different issue. But ppl seem to actually kill very overleveled groups of monsters on lower levels and break the flow of the game. Just look at the other thread (those fucking oil barrels one-shotting ghoul near lighthouse with smart stealth/telekenisis).

like i said, you can't read... i never said i couldn't equip stuff, i said you couldn't equip stuff without making imbalanced chars. also it's not normal for a char to have only str in any given rpg. or int or whatever. and the ghoul if i remember correctly is the first zone you have to go to, so what flow breaking?
 

Shadenuat

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Having super high stat that is the most important for your class is not an "imbalanced char".
The ghoul is just an example of how you can kill a tough boss by completely ignoring the fight itself.

like i said, you can't read...
Maybe, but then you can't play for shit since you can't make an effective char who can use all the items.
 

Reapa

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Having super high stat that is the most important for your class is not an "imbalanced char".
The ghoul is just an example of how you can kill a tough boss by completely ignoring the fight itself.

i already know how to use environment. thank you. but that is beside the point. once you get to rex and get your maxed int, str and dex party wiped by one fireball we talk again about balance.
also like i said, the ghoul is not a tough boss, it's the first miniboss.
 

Shadenuat

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once you get to rex and get your maxed int, str and dex party wiped by one fireball we talk again about balance.
Who? The boss of the first map you mean? I don't want to use Roguey speech, but only a dummy would allow him to cast fireball on your whole party while you can un-chain party members and make them move independently.
 

MicoSelva

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I agree with one thing: level requirements for items are bullshit copied from hack'n'slash and MMORPGs and have no place in a proper RPG.

Stat requirements are ok, but only if they make sense. If a two-handed sword requires X points of strength then a better two-handed sword should not require more, unless it is made of something really heavy (but it wouldn't be better then, would it?).

In before simulationist scum.

These two things are especially annoying in D:OS, because the game does a lot to simulate that p&p experience, with cooperative dialogue, huge interaction opportunities, and such, but on the other hand can't get rid of its Diablo clone roots (DivDiv), even though it now has turn-based combat.
 

Reapa

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once you get to rex and get your maxed int, str and dex party wiped by one fireball we talk again about balance.
Who? The boss of the first map you mean? I don't want to use Roguey speech, but only a dummy would allow him to cast fireball on your whole party while you can un-chain party members and make them move independently.
sorry, but you sounded like a dummy and you totally ignored the argument that maxing out 1 stat is not some ingenious solution to the game and the fact that it's still level zoned and the first boss, the ghoul, is easy to kill with any build.
what barrels will you use against the fire boss??
 

Shadenuat

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sorry, but you sounded like a dummy and you totally ignored the argument that maxing out 1 stat is not some ingenious solution to the game and the fact that it's still level zoned and the first boss, the ghoul, is easy to kill with any build.
what barrels will you use against the fire boss??
I never said it was a way to "fix whole game". I only said that if you build your chars right, you will never have trouble equipping all the good equipment.

I agree that game is "zoned" and has diablo/wow roots in it. I am just not sure yet if it ruins the whole experience that much to say that game "sucks". Sure it's probably stupid to stealth through first map into second and try and fence with level 13 orcs, but it seems that "zones" are placed with a possibility for player to go through game at his own pace, in his own way.
It feels not as much as diablo/wow, but more like Gothic, where you could do a lot and run far, but some barriers were just impenetrable (orcs near level 1 zones in G2, troll in G1, and so on).

I guess what I would like to see is more "realistic" zoning, where cities and roads around them would have low level mobs, but the more you go to edges of the map the strongets mobs become, but I'm not sure... it have been a while since anyone even tried to make an Ultima-like, I don't even know how to level-scale shit properly so it would feel good.

what barrels will you use against the fire boss??
One guy said he lured most of the enemies at that fight into poison pit made by Ghoul, and exloded it for massive damage. Dunno how it helped, but must have killed at least a bunch of adds (Baron and Ghoul).
 
Last edited:

Reapa

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sorry, but you sounded like a dummy and you totally ignored the argument that maxing out 1 stat is not some ingenious solution to the game and the fact that it's still level zoned and the first boss, the ghoul, is easy to kill with any build.
what barrels will you use against the fire boss??
I never said it was a way to "fix whole game". I only said that if you build your chars right, you will never have trouble equipping all the good equipment.

I agree that game is "zoned" and has diablo/wow roots in it. I am just not sure yet if it ruins the whole experience that much to say that game "sucks". Sure it's probably stupid to stealth through first map into second and try and fence with level 13 orcs, but it seems that "zones" are placed with a possibility for player to go through game at his own pace, in his own way.
It feels not as much as diablo/wow, but more like Gothic, where you could do a lot and run far, but some barriers were just inpenetrable (orcs near level 1 zones in G2, troll in G1, and so on).

I guess what I would like to see is more "realistic" zoning, where cities and roads around them would have low level mobs, but the more you go to edges of the map the strongets mobs become, but I'm not sure... it have been a while since anyone even tried to make an Ultima-like, I don't even know how to level-scale shit properly so it would feel good.

there is no need for level scaling. just because you have levels doesn't mean you need level scaling. arcanum had levels, morrowind had levels, bg1+2 had levels but there you had much more freedom... much more...
one negative aspect doesn't make the game suck, it's the sum of all the negative aspects that put together break a game that otherwise might have been quite good. I'm not mad at them 4 failing, I'm mad at them for failing at something good.
 

Shadenuat

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Morrowind had a mixed system that had level scaling. That is why, say, Almalexia's or King's guards were so dangerous at high levels - their stats/resistances reached retarded proportions.

In Arcanum you could go a bunch of miles to the south and die to level 25 bears. It also had "locked" parts of world that could only be reached by metagaming.

There will always be some progression involved with levels. You're not going to win Horrors near Durlag's tower with level 1 party in BG1.
 

kris

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I have not played the game so I speak not as either a fan or hater. This "review" was shit. Was more like a rant from someone with different expectations and then posted his complaints.

This sure didn't deserve its own thread as said complaints could easily been posted in the thread about the game.
 

Reapa

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Morrowind had a mixed system that had level scaling. That is why, say, Almalexia's or King's guards were so dangerous at high levels - their stats/resistances reached retarded proportions.

In Arcanum you could go a bunch of miles to the south and die to level 25 bears. It also had "locked" parts of world that could only be reached by metagaming.

There will always be some progression involved with levels. You're not going to win Horrors near Durlag's tower with level 1 party in BG1.

If i remember correctly arcanum maze had lvl 10 zombies and at the end lvl 20 or something like that. also if you killed them you got scripted rare loot. almalexia is not morrowind, it's tribunal. tribunal was a whole other kind of game. tribunal was even linear.
 

Reapa

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I have not played the game so I speak not as either a fan or hater. This "review" was shit. Was more like a rant from someone with different expectations and then posted his complaints.

This sure didn't deserve its own thread as said complaints could easily been posted in the thread about the game.
you are entitled to your opinion and i find your opinion sucks. also i have posted things i like about the game, but don't expect me to review an RPG without RPG expectations. wtf? especially since this game is supposed to be the peak of incline.
 

Reapa

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sorry, but you sounded like a dummy and you totally ignored the argument that maxing out 1 stat is not some ingenious solution to the game and the fact that it's still level zoned and the first boss, the ghoul, is easy to kill with any build.
what barrels will you use against the fire boss??

what barrels will you use against the fire boss??
One guy said he lured most of the enemies at that fight into poison pit made by Ghoul, and exloded it for massive damage. Dunno how it helped, but must have killed at least a bunch of adds (Baron and Ghoul).

I'm talking about the fire boss alone. He seemed much stronger on his own and in his own environment with his own minions. not at rex. once i killed each one of them on their own grounds they were a piece of cake at rex. not sure why, but i think they might have been stronger on their own. maybe just because of their minion support.
 

kris

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I have not played the game so I speak not as either a fan or hater. This "review" was shit. Was more like a rant from someone with different expectations and then posted his complaints.

This sure didn't deserve its own thread as said complaints could easily been posted in the thread about the game.
you are entitled to your opinion and i find your opinion sucks. also i have posted things i like about the game, but don't expect me to review an RPG without RPG expectations. wtf? especially since this game is supposed to be the peak of incline.

But you didn't do a review. You wrote very little about the game more than small tidbits like "feels smaller". Then the bulk of what you wrote was big rants about levelscaling and small things you didn't agree with.
So it wasn't a review, it was a rant.
 

Reapa

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I have not played the game so I speak not as either a fan or hater. This "review" was shit. Was more like a rant from someone with different expectations and then posted his complaints.

This sure didn't deserve its own thread as said complaints could easily been posted in the thread about the game.
you are entitled to your opinion and i find your opinion sucks. also i have posted things i like about the game, but don't expect me to review an RPG without RPG expectations. wtf? especially since this game is supposed to be the peak of incline.

But you didn't do a review. You wrote very little about the game more than small tidbits like "feels smaller". Then the bulk of what you wrote was big rants about levelscaling and small things you didn't agree with.
So it wasn't a review, it was a rant.
this is how i make my reviews, if you don't like it make your own...
also, what else would you like to know about the game?
Those "rants" are basically the game.
 

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