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Decline Why did the crpg decline happen?

Zed Duke of Banville

Dungeon Master
Patron
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Messages
12,901
With Bioware, when Baldur's Gate 1 released. Literally everything you complain about modern RPGs can be linked to Bioware: Real Time combat, romances, simplified character creation, cliché classic heroic fantasy story.
True, but this is also related to the distribution problem for computer games, which affected far more than just CRPGs. As the gaming industry expanded, stores failed to keep pace in terms of increasing the size of their retail space and therefore the number of different games available. This gradually drove relatively niche genres or subgenres into virtual extinction, as they disappeared from physical game stores and could survive only via direct orders (placed by mail or phone, later increasingly on-line, but always necessitating a physical delivery), which further harmed sales. For CRPGs, this meant, for example, that RTS games with RPG elements could amass considerable sales by exploiting the popularity of existing RTS gameplay, or that Bethesda could pioneer 3D Open World CRPGs and achieve considerable sales, while Wizardry-likes, Dungeon Master-likes, Tactical RPGs, and Ultima-likes had more or less disappeared by the mid-00s. Digital distribution of computer games began as a niche method, but the development of Steam into a proper platform resulted in a surge of players switching from physical to digital distribution, which limited the number of available games only by the platform's selectivity. By 2012, it was possible for near-defunct CRPG subgenres to make a comeback, since they didn't need to obtain any physical store space, just gain clearance from Steam to appear on the virtual store. The 'wasteland' era of CRPGs from 2004-2011 was replaced by an era of semi-hemi-demi-renaissance that would never have been possible if physical sales had remained dominant (as much as I otherwise regret the demise of physical, boxed computer games).
 

Lord_Potato

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Nov 24, 2017
Messages
10,765
Location
Free City of Warsaw
older games were designed with more care because the designers had to work with more limited ressources and also needed to make sure their game was in a good shape when shipping (bugfree and all)
Lol, no. The old games were shipped in a very buggy state, think Elder Scrolls: Arena, or Ultima 7/8. Ufo: Enemy Unknown also had some serious bugs, most important concerning difficulty levels. Daggerfall was unfinishable at launch.

It's just those bugs were quite difficult and expensive to fix, with no general internet access to distribute patches.
 

H. P. Lovecraft's Cat

SumDrunkCat
Shitposter
Joined
Feb 7, 2024
Messages
2,546
That's a stretch. I'm a firm believer that decline always originates from homosexuality so we must look at the earliest RPGs that were developed by homosexuals and contain homosexual content aka grooming. It seems that RPGs became increasingly more gay after Fallout 1. We can start there.

Diablo 1 ftr had zero homosexual subtext.
Humanity has risen! has a buddy, I see.
HHR is a gay man who can't live with himself. I'm a straight man who can't live with gays. There's a difference.
 

Hell Swarm

Learned
Joined
Jun 16, 2023
Messages
2,144
With Bioware, when Baldur's Gate 1 released. Literally everything you complain about modern RPGs can be linked to Bioware: Real Time combat, romances, simplified character creation, cliché classic heroic fantasy story.
True, but this is also related to the distribution problem for computer games, which affected far more than just CRPGs. As the gaming industry expanded, stores failed to keep pace in terms of increasing the size of their retail space and therefore the number of different games available. This gradually drove relatively niche genres or subgenres into virtual extinction, as they disappeared from physical game stores and could survive only via direct orders (placed by mail or phone, later increasingly on-line, but always necessitating a physical delivery), which further harmed sales. For CRPGs, this meant, for example, that RTS games with RPG elements could amass considerable sales by exploiting the popularity of existing RTS gameplay, or that Bethesda could pioneer 3D Open World CRPGs and achieve considerable sales, while Wizardry-likes, Dungeon Master-likes, Tactical RPGs, and Ultima-likes had more or less disappeared by the mid-00s. Digital distribution of computer games began as a niche method, but the development of Steam into a proper platform resulted in a surge of players switching from physical to digital distribution, which limited the number of available games only by the platform's selectivity. By 2012, it was possible for near-defunct CRPG subgenres to make a comeback, since they didn't need to obtain any physical store space, just gain clearance from Steam to appear on the virtual store. The 'wasteland' era of CRPGs from 2004-2011 was replaced by an era of semi-hemi-demi-renaissance that would never have been possible if physical sales had remained dominant (as much as I otherwise regret the demise of physical, boxed computer games).
Back in the 90s there were Mum and Pops stores selling big box PC games. They made up the biggest market share for niche titles and were a local shop for a niche audience. Like a shop selling model trains, they're not for everyone but a loyal audience would always come back for their next fix. As large companies took their place and started selling games on super market shelves the room for those niche shops dried up almost over night. Then the super markets had to start stocking games in ways the niche shops didn't. The niche shop could buy 2 copies of Wizardry and expect to sell both. A super market needs to stock 50 copies of Gears of war or Assassin's creed and will be ordering more the next week. The way games were sold at brick and mortar stores completely changed how viable niche products were. Getting on a Tesco or Walmart shelf became increasingly difficult and once digital markets took off getting scene became even more difficult.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,621
Location
Ingrija
How about one that casts you as counter intelligence, saboteur, mixed intelligence, has you engaging into sabotage, organized crime, resistance organization, whathaveyou?

Doesn't sound much like playing D&D and derivative games to me.

"Horror and CRPG mechanics don't mesh!" They do. They did. Some of them even tweaked the typical mechanics, such as Stone Prophet introducing (light) survival elements into exploration.

Nah, not really. It's only a "horror" when you're facing something you don't have counters against. Like facing lots of poisoning enemies while only having a couple of keoghtom's ointments to cure poison. Once your priest learns cure poison, poof - there goes the "horror". Survival elements in Stone Prophet are bypassed entirely by having a priest with create water memorized, you'd have to consciously gimp your party even to acknowledge it exists.

Real horror are level-draining enemies, but even they got gimped in later plebeian editions.
 

RaggleFraggle

Ask me about VTM
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
1,421
Yeah, if only we had more RPGs about saturnian squids riding dick dinosaurs in industrial age Mezobabylonian ice jungles, that would make RPGs great again overnight :roll:
I never said that. That's a nonsensical strawman.

You can make good medieval fantasy, but enough with the bloody dragons and hills and plains...
You can mix things up, add different creatures, planes of existence, more geographical variety.
Maybe, but at the end of day that's just a cosmetic palette swap. If you took a generic rpg and then set it on the elemental plane of fire (specifically the Mystara/Dark Dungeons version that has actual geography), then it's just a generic rpg set on the elemental plane of fire. You go around killing fire rats in the basements of ifrit peasant farmers, fight evil ifrit overlords trying to enslave the populace with whatever the plane's equivalent of orcs is, etc.

I'm specifically sick of the "medieval fantasy" part. I'm sick of all the tropes associated with it. The genre is oversaturated and mined out. After a while the games just blur together.

All media goes through a golden age and then subsequent periods of decline. The reasons for these are all the same: when the medium is new you had passionate hobbyists and talented pioneers, people who cared about the medium itself. As it matures, it becomes just another way to milk money out of the populace and to perform social engineering.
And here we have the root of the problems. The reason why rpgs are so cookie cutter and bland is symptomatic of a lack of creativity and passion on the part of the developers.
In my dark fantasy medieval RPG, I would remove all demihuman races. Fuck elves, gnomes, orcs, all of them gotta go...
Also no dragons and other typical fantasy monsters.
Focus more on noble human activities like plotting, scheming, raping, pillaging, war, but also chivalry and courage displayed by certain rare heroes.
Add more undead, demons and abominations. Magic is rare and dangerous to wield, also hereditary, transmitted through bloodline.
Hot chicks and barbarians are also mandatory.
Make whatever you want, dude. You do you.

I’m just completely burnt out on medieval. I want other genres. Bronze Age fantasy. Swashbucklers. Westerns. Space Westerns. Pulps. More creative takes on postapoc and cyberpunk.

It’s a huge waste that gamers can’t think outside their Tolkienesque/Gygaxian comfort zone.

The genre is oversaturated with cookie cutter medieval fantasy where you're the chosen one who has to save the universe, when there are a plethora of other genres and premises that could be explored. If you've played the classic Bioware, Black Isle, Troika and Obsidian crpgs, then you've pretty much played the entire medium. Crpgs in other genres are rare and tend to suffer from imitating popular entries in the genre rather than trying to do their own thing.
Ok why aren't you buying non cookie cutter medieval fantasy games then.

Truth is that's what people want in the genre.
I play when I can find them, but there aren’t a lot of options and Sturgeon’s law is in full effect here.

If consoomers refuse to leave their comfort zone, then that’s their malfunction. That’s a fucking stupid reason not to do new things.
 

NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Sep 6, 2022
Messages
13,921
I’m just completely burnt out on medieval. I want other genres. Bronze Age fantasy. Swashbucklers. Westerns. Space Westerns. Pulps. More creative takes on postapoc and cyberpunk.
So do I, especially a Hyborian Age campaign...
 

Hell Swarm

Learned
Joined
Jun 16, 2023
Messages
2,144
I’m just completely burnt out on medieval. I want other genres. Bronze Age fantasy. Swashbucklers. Westerns. Space Westerns. Pulps. More creative takes on postapoc and cyberpunk.
There are millions of crappy cyberpunk CRPGs with pixel graphics released every year. They barely sell. There's a reason why medieval is the most popular setting for fantasy games.
 

RaggleFraggle

Ask me about VTM
Joined
Mar 23, 2022
Messages
1,421
There's a reason why medieval is the most popular setting for fantasy games.
What reason is that? It’s not quality, sturgeon’s law is in full effect. There are millions of crappy fantasy crpgs released every year that nobody buys.
 

Necrensha

Educated
Joined
Aug 31, 2024
Messages
273
Location
Deep underground
What reason is that? It’s not quality, sturgeon’s law is in full effect. There are millions of crappy fantasy crpgs released every year that nobody buys.
It's easy. The majority of people do not want to think, therefore medieval fantasy is the easiest setting possible because everybody already knows what to expect.
 

Melcar

Arcane
Joined
Oct 20, 2008
Messages
36,366
Location
Merida, again
Medieval fantasy was always a big seller in the mainstream. Stories and movies on that setting have always been around. It's also important to point out that it's "European Medieval fantasy". Most people in "teh West" prefer familiar stories and settings, specially those that elevate Western virtues. Kind of like how WW2 games are (or were) hugely popular. Everyone just wants to cash in and avoid taking a risk.
 
Joined
Dec 18, 2022
Messages
2,377
Location
Vareš
In my dark fantasy medieval RPG, I would remove all demihuman races. Fuck elves, gnomes, orcs, all of them gotta go...
Also no dragons and other typical fantasy monsters.
Focus more on noble human activities like plotting, scheming, raping, pillaging, war, but also chivalry and courage displayed by certain rare heroes.
Add more undead, demons and abominations. Magic is rare and dangerous to wield, also hereditary, transmitted through bloodline.
Hot chicks and barbarians are also mandatory.
Hard to be a God, great game :smug:
 

NecroLord

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck
Joined
Sep 6, 2022
Messages
13,921
In my dark fantasy medieval RPG, I would remove all demihuman races. Fuck elves, gnomes, orcs, all of them gotta go...
Also no dragons and other typical fantasy monsters.
Focus more on noble human activities like plotting, scheming, raping, pillaging, war, but also chivalry and courage displayed by certain rare heroes.
Add more undead, demons and abominations. Magic is rare and dangerous to wield, also hereditary, transmitted through bloodline.
Hot chicks and barbarians are also mandatory.
Hard to be a God, great game :smug:
Never played it.
 
Joined
Dec 18, 2022
Messages
2,377
Location
Vareš
In my dark fantasy medieval RPG, I would remove all demihuman races. Fuck elves, gnomes, orcs, all of them gotta go...
Also no dragons and other typical fantasy monsters.
Focus more on noble human activities like plotting, scheming, raping, pillaging, war, but also chivalry and courage displayed by certain rare heroes.
Add more undead, demons and abominations. Magic is rare and dangerous to wield, also hereditary, transmitted through bloodline.
Hot chicks and barbarians are also mandatory.
Hard to be a God, great game :smug:
Never played it.
DtTjFBO.jpeg
 

Daemongar

Arcane
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Messages
4,900
Location
Wisconsin
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire

Proper CRPGs are computer implementations of D&D and derivative games, and D&D and derivative games are explicitly designed around mythic champions and puissant wizards (or their equivalents in spaaahce) doing larger than life things (like not dying in the first encounter). A WW2 CRPG where you shrug off a MG 42 burst in your face at point blank range then proceed to bayonet a Tiger II to death would be kind of retarded. And anything else would be a far cry from D&D and derivative games.
There was Boot Hill by TSR that tried to implement lethality of guns into a D&D type setting, but I'll be damned if I remember the rules. Also, I think in the AD&D module - Through the Looking Glass - I think some wizard had a gun "hogleg" and they had stats on damage which could do fatal damage.

I think WW2 and D&D type rules could exist, if you approached it kind of like how Battletech described armor (ah, fuck, no sense in trying to not be a nerd on this one.) They described a kid with a bat attacking a tank - he can hit it all day long, but he will never do any damage. But give that kid an rpg, now there is a threat. He has the type of weapon which can do some damage - but before he may as well have had a sword.

D&D weapons wouldn't be much good against standard WW2 armor, but once the players figure that out - which spells work, which don't, and where to find the weapons they need - it could lead to something. So, an intro dungeon with players meeting their first guy with a pistol, leading up to stronger and stronger enemies - well, now not only do you have a AD&D WW2 game, you also have the original Wasteland.
 

Beans00

Erudite
Possibly Retarded
Joined
Aug 27, 2008
Messages
1,680
I just want an rpg where I am allowed to commit crimes, do drugs, gamble all my money away and sell friends into slavery to buy more drugs.


Why is fallout 2 the only rpg that offers me this?


Imagine a san andreas rpg. You are a hood gangsta on the corner slinging crack rock, but you get high on your own supply and have a side quest to get more crack. But your fake ass gangster rival dayshawn isnt allowing that.

So what the hell do you do? Also the game would have a side quest to become a cyborg.
 
Joined
Dec 30, 2023
Messages
162
8h6hsFE.png



Such a decline comment and retarded guy. Larian? It would take and become into a tranny game, with genitals customization, vitiligo customization, body type and shit like this

 

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