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Why do modern RPGs have 0% soul?

RaggleFraggle

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The creative director also needs to be actually good at their job or you will end up with garbage.

While it's not an rpg, Scorn is a perfect example. It had one creative lead who oversaw the whole project for eight years. Had a lore bible laying things out and everything. After six years of development, during which over 50% of the game was completed, he decided to scrap their work so far and rebuild it from scratch to take advantage of new video cards. He cut out 90% of the originally planned content. He released a rushed, unfinished product that didn't accomplish any of the artistic goals or communicate the social commentary that he intended.
 

NecroLord

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The creative director also needs to be actually good at their job or you will end up with garbage.

While it's not an rpg, Scorn is a perfect example. It had one creative lead who oversaw the whole project for eight years. Had a lore bible laying things out and everything. After six years of development, during which over 50% of the game was completed, he decided to scrap their work so far and rebuild it from scratch to take advantage of new video cards. He cut out 90% of the originally planned content. He released a rushed, unfinished product that didn't accomplish any of the artistic goals or communicate the social commentary that he intended.
Indeed.
It could've been a great game.
But I digress...

All your typical lead directors these days are woke corpo types with zero creativity.
 

SharkClub

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Strap Yourselves In
Also well read,had good amount of cultural knowledge from older generation. Good example is the dnd and how much mythology,history and occult shit there is it. Warhammer is the same,fantasy one is just medieval earth but instead of nations you have different races with some mythology sprinkled in.
Goes for about any sci-fi or fantasy game out there too. People making those sorts of games back in the 80's had the knowledge and education, they had read some of the great European poems and fantasy fiction and they had read the sci-fi greats from the 1960's or back to the late 1800's when the genre almost spawned out of nothing. Nowadays I wouldn't be surprised if all the people """"""writing"""""" (and consulting for Sweet Baby Inc.) for video games (a lot of them are womyn diversity hires with no history in writing OR reading literature) only have experience with fantasy through Harry Potter and sci-fi through Star Wars.

But it's a symptom of a larger problem. The real problem with the lack of soul in games is as many in this thread have said already, the simple idiom of "too many cooks spoil the broth", without firm creative leadership under an auteur and them managing a very small team; a game will never have a coherent vision and should never be considered art because there is zero soul involved, just hordes of diversity hires injecting political propaganda into a game and pajeets collecting paychecks for making 50,000 polygon sandwiches to bog down your computer.
 

Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
Developer
Joined
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The creative director also needs to be actually good at their job or you will end up with garbage.

While it's not an rpg, Scorn is a perfect example. It had one creative lead who oversaw the whole project for eight years. Had a lore bible laying things out and everything. After six years of development, during which over 50% of the game was completed, he decided to scrap their work so far and rebuild it from scratch to take advantage of new video cards. He cut out 90% of the originally planned content. He released a rushed, unfinished product that didn't accomplish any of the artistic goals or communicate the social commentary that he intended.

That's what happened? I just thought it was rushed. This is way worse.
 

Alex

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Jun 14, 2007
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The creative director also needs to be actually good at their job or you will end up with garbage.

While it's not an rpg, Scorn is a perfect example. It had one creative lead who oversaw the whole project for eight years. Had a lore bible laying things out and everything. After six years of development, during which over 50% of the game was completed, he decided to scrap their work so far and rebuild it from scratch to take advantage of new video cards. He cut out 90% of the originally planned content. He released a rushed, unfinished product (...)

mqdefault.jpg


(...) didn't (...) communicate the social commentary that he intended.

redeem-yourself-dumb-and-dumber.gif
 

RaggleFraggle

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The creative director also needs to be actually good at their job or you will end up with garbage.

While it's not an rpg, Scorn is a perfect example. It had one creative lead who oversaw the whole project for eight years. Had a lore bible laying things out and everything. After six years of development, during which over 50% of the game was completed, he decided to scrap their work so far and rebuild it from scratch to take advantage of new video cards. He cut out 90% of the originally planned content. He released a rushed, unfinished product that didn't accomplish any of the artistic goals or communicate the social commentary that he intended.
Indeed.
It could've been a great game.
But I digress...

All your typical lead directors these days are woke corpo types with zero creativity.
Peklar wasn't woke. He wanted to communicate a theme that we're losing ourselves to technology. This was a key aspect of the worldbuilding in Scorn. As the artbook explained, Squishworld fell apart because the ruling class was obsessed with achieving higher states of consciousness by getting high. First they tried sex, then they tried drugs made from bodily fluids, then they extracted their souls from their bodies into flying squids that could inhabit "shells" willy-nilly, then they did something that broke reality and created a reality-warping rift in the middle of their capital. There were no survivors. Meanwhile, the technocrat class were originally bred so they could be put into juicing machines and turned into recreational drugs, but were so smart they were put in charge of maintaining the tech. They fought a civil war that ended up poisoning the skies with mustard gas and presumably killing what biosphere existed. Aside from a few survivors sealed in stasis pods, they all died too. Also, there's various giant creatures leftover that spawn meat monsters: the player character is birthed by giant wall of flesh whose origins is unexplained. The first area you come across is a factory where the livestock caste was bred and packaged so their body parts could be harvested for use elsewhere. All the buildings in this civilization are made of still-living body parts, which may or may not still be sentient.

Since most of the planned content was removed, it's impossible for this commentary to come across in the final product. You have to read the artbook and the interview in [lock.on] #5 to know what the devs were thinking, none of which are accessible to the general public via commonly used ebook stores... because of course not! Why expect convenience from these artsy fartsy asshats?! Anyway, all the youtube commentators focus on the surface level details and come up with completely incorrect theories about how the game is about aliens crossbreeding with humans or something similarly cliche and uninteresting. But the actual underlying message was supposed to be "technology and industrialization is destroying our humanity."

This message is especially timely since tech bros are currently trying to replace creatives with AIs while snorting crack off hookers' butts, invent VR and mind uploading to satisfy their increasingly deranged and violent sexual fantasies, force the "useless eaters" to toil away at the menial jobs AI cannot replace, etc. The social commentary is about as subtle as a brick to the face, and all it would take would be to show this Squishworld civilization at its height. Without dialogue, since Squishworld people don't have mouths aside from the homunculi technocrats who have lipless toothy mouths.

It's based on the art of Beksinski and Giger, so yeah it's a horrific hellscape.

The creative director also needs to be actually good at their job or you will end up with garbage.

While it's not an rpg, Scorn is a perfect example. It had one creative lead who oversaw the whole project for eight years. Had a lore bible laying things out and everything. After six years of development, during which over 50% of the game was completed, he decided to scrap their work so far and rebuild it from scratch to take advantage of new video cards. He cut out 90% of the originally planned content. He released a rushed, unfinished product that didn't accomplish any of the artistic goals or communicate the social commentary that he intended.

That's what happened? I just thought it was rushed. This is way worse.
Yeah. So few people care about this game that the only way to know about its development history is by watching the youtube videos made by a particularly obsessive fan who read and watches all the obscure promos and interviews for the last six years: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_RLU92At-4RZpY7rk_gC-5TYO-BkiAHw

Since this information isn't widely available, most of the people on the Scorn reddit and other discussion venues (other than the discord that TranshumanistGamer is a member of) don't know any of it and thus are incredibly annoying to talk to. I backed the kickstarter because I love Giger and Beksinski (I'm one of those artsy fartsy types who like to read their armchair psych profiles to puzzle out what makes someone draw these nightmarish hellscapes), so you can imagine how annoyed I am at wasting money and six years on this insulting disaster. The interviews with Peklar suggested he actually understood Beksinki and Giger psychology and incorporated that into his game world, but his subsequent dropping of the ball was surprising and a huge betrayal of trust.

Words cannot express how much I now hate Ebb Software. But by this point I'm used to disappointment so it doesn't live in my head rent free. There's so many things I'm angry about that they just blend together into an incoherent mass of existential angst now.

The creative director also needs to be actually good at their job or you will end up with garbage.

While it's not an rpg, Scorn is a perfect example. It had one creative lead who oversaw the whole project for eight years. Had a lore bible laying things out and everything. After six years of development, during which over 50% of the game was completed, he decided to scrap their work so far and rebuild it from scratch to take advantage of new video cards. He cut out 90% of the originally planned content. He released a rushed, unfinished product (...)

mqdefault.jpg


(...) didn't (...) communicate the social commentary that he intended.

redeem-yourself-dumb-and-dumber.gif
It wasn't woke commentary. It was intelligent commentary about how technology, industrialization and rampant hedonism among the upper classes is currently eating our souls and will cause the apocalypse. This isn't a new or uncommon sentiment, but damn does the Beksinki Giger aesthetic make it look beautifully gruesome.

It's too bad Peklar fucked it up though. Extracting your soul, turning it into a flying squid and riding robot bodies across tramlines across a beksinki giger cityscape sounds really interesting.
 

Serious_Business

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Fucking hell man, am I seeing double or this is the same shit thread from the other time? Oh yeah, there it is, the other one was titled "A problem with RPGs: RPG developers are not well-read in myth and fantasy". Well I guess that one was a bit more fucking specific, this one is just romantic wailing about soul and modernity, boo boo boo. Come on man, go live in the forest or whatever, have your resonant experience, fuck right off. I mean okay, here is the ironic point you're waiting for :

All new thread look the same, read the same, tell the same story. Posters betray any idea of innovation after first 3 negative replies. This is forum wide and exceptions are very rare

Yeah yeah. Fucking oof
 

Skinwalker

*meows in an empty room*
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As the artbook explained, Squishworld fell apart because the ruling class was obsessed with achieving higher states of consciousness by getting high. First they tried sex, then they tried drugs made from bodily fluids, then they extracted their souls from their bodies into flying squids that could inhabit "shells" willy-nilly, then they did something that broke reality and created a reality-warping rift in the middle of their capital. There were no survivors.
Ok, and where did the rift take "people" who went through it, and what would have happened if the main character had managed to go through? And why was he trying to do that? And where had the rift disappear to by the time he freed himself from the flesh-tree?
 

Tyranicon

A Memory of Eternity
Developer
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
7,840
This website has been around for over 20 years and the cRPG scene has mostly been stagnant the entire fucking time. What else is there to do but re-hash old talking points?

Bitch about released games
Bitch about upcoming games
Bitch about the genre <- you are here

Perhaps if devs actually made mind-blowing experiences we would have less desire to complain more. But as the good taste game-playing population is already old/grumpy, and devs seem to be getting worse at their jobs, I don't have much hope for that.
 

RaggleFraggle

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Mar 23, 2022
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As the artbook explained, Squishworld fell apart because the ruling class was obsessed with achieving higher states of consciousness by getting high. First they tried sex, then they tried drugs made from bodily fluids, then they extracted their souls from their bodies into flying squids that could inhabit "shells" willy-nilly, then they did something that broke reality and created a reality-warping rift in the middle of their capital. There were no survivors.
Ok, and where did the rift take "people" who went through it, and what would have happened if the main character had managed to go through? And why was he trying to do that? And where had the rift disappear to by the time he freed himself from the flesh-tree?
It’s not explained. Although since the artbook depicts it causing nearby architecture to warp and deform, I’m assuming it shredded anyone sucked into it. In the game we can see it is steadily wearing down the nearby statutes, revealing the raw flesh underneath. Also, it’s apparently called “the Nexus” and was at one point visible from the first level (as the first picture of it appears in that section).
 

quaesta

Educated
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Oct 27, 2022
Messages
160
It's not true. Kids these days if it is not a soulslike, they don't even recognize it as an RPG.
If it has enough marketing kids will see it. Look at BG3, the same people who didn't know what D&D 5 was, what a beholder is, or what D:OS was, ended up buying the game. Why? Because of ads.
 

Chippy

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May 5, 2018
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Fans got dumb. Developers got dumb.

For reference:

90s developers were like that smart couple at the start. There just weren't enough of them to cultivate a fanbase. Modern developers are the mouth breathers.

The end.
 
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Mar 28, 2014
Messages
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RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In
There's a multitude of reasons for that and most people who posted in this thread are probably correct:
-Big budgets obviously limit creativity, even studio heads need to do as they are told by companies that own their studios. You can't explore the nature of war if you're handled new Marvel license and are told that whatever you're writing can't upset the license-holder or your head will roll
-Climate of political correctness and larger culture war is obviously very hostile to creative geniuses. If you want to create something that feels fresh you obviously need to go be on the edge with few things. Can't really make a great work of art if you're constantly wondering if you're going to offend someone and self censor yourself. It's like trying to dance on the minefield. You at one time dance and try to avoid the mines, but the performance isn't going to be better than ok
-Writers only read and watch garbage

There's one last thing that I think matters that only apply to fantasy games. People making them are no longer genuinely interested in fantasy as a genre. Many fantasy games were created as a means of escapism, to feel like you're living in a fantasy world. Partially driven by people reading great works of fantasy (mainly LOTR) and wishing to be able to interact more with this world, or a world like that. Which is why Gygax player's were pushing so hard for inclusion of non-human races in early D&D, they wanted to feel like they're are another Fellowship of the Ring. So obviously a great care was put in these games. Like including Day and Night Cycle in Ultima V for example. From the gameplay perspective it's just an annoyance, sometimes you need to camp outside of town, other times a shopkeeper you need will run off to eat his lunch.

Now the entire genre is seen as a collection of props. Chararactes talk and act like current day people, demographics make no sense whatsoever, there's literally no difference between how elves and dwarves talk, powerful gods are morons, seasoned adventurers act like quirky teenagers, because none of it matters. Writers know how to write current day people from California and so they will, this being a fantasy just means that they need to make sure that they specify that a random character is called "an elf" in his bio. Every other aspect of the game is treated with the same care. It's just a product to be pushed to the market. People who make them may be talented individuals who want to do god job but none of them cares about this fantasy universe.

This lack of care is what I think people see when they say that something is "souless".
 

NecroLord

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You can't explore the nature of war if you're handled new Marvel license and are told that whatever you're writing can't upset the license-holder or your head will roll
This reminds me of that Tim Cain quote:
My idea is to explore more of the world and more of the ethics of a post-nuclear world, not to make a better plasma gun.
This stuff seems to have completely flown over Bethesda's heads...
 

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