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Why does Codex hate Oblivion so much?

Funposter

Magister
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To really understand the pits of Oblivion, play a thief/treasure hunter in Morrowind and then Oblivion. How the latter handled item placement and accessibility in its world in one of the most egregious sins committed in the history of game design. It's like receiving 20 cool gifts one Christmas, and just a pair of socks the next.
I am mildly pissed that they nerfed the Robe of St. Roris that hard, it was OP as fuck but it wasn't THAT easy to get super-fast unless you won the outlander-hobo lottery with the random potions in crates around towns

Robe of St Roris could have been nerfed to 1 pt effect CE for both effects and it still would have been insanely useful. Even at the 15 points it's sort of goofy to go and nerf it with all of the other amazing gear available. Any random lvl 1 character can get access to the best weapons in the game via. the Vassir-Didanat quest anyway, or hell, the random corpse in that blighted egg mine with a Daedric Dai-Katana lol.

Loot placement and itemization is really the least awful of Oblivion's sins in a way, because it's the one which mods most easily fix. None of them are perfect, but OOO, MOO etc. and a billion other overhauls all fix it to some extent and make special gear feel special. The worst thing is the writing and the quests, because that's something that can never really be fixed even by the most ambitious and well-organised modding team, primarily due to voice acting. A comprehensive overhaul could likely un-fuck all of the factions, side quests and main quest, but it would always feel like a mod when you get to the part where voiced dialogue stops playing.
 

Archwizard Hank

Learned
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The worst thing is the writing and the quests, because that's something that can never really be fixed even by the most ambitious and well-organised modding team, primarily due to voice acting.

What about Tensorflow style machine learning-powered voice synthesis? It might not sound great, but this is Oblivion we're talking about, basically anything would be an improvement.



We could train the model on sound clips of, fuck, I dunno, David Warner and even at its most artificial it'd still probably sound better than the line delivery of Generic Nord Male number 356
 

Ol' Willy

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deadmeme

Learned
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I like Oblivon. Especially the level scaling, which seperates man from kids. It is simplified compared to Morrowind and Daggerfall. That doesn't mean it is a bad game. Fallout is a simplified type of CRPG compared to Wizardry and Gold box games, but you still like Fallout. At least I can finish Oblvion unlike Fallout (I always get bored at New Reno after multiple playthroughs). Fallout is so simple if you die in it once, you are an idiot. What is cool about Oblivion? Characters like Lucien Lachance, Annoying fan, Maiq, Count Hasildor, Sheogorath, Haskill and many others. Masterrace music that gets my dick hard when I am slaying goblins. There are so many great quests to do. For example, the one when you enter Blackwood Company and you have to kill goblins, bit it turns out you didn't kill goblins but villagers but you weren't aware of that because of being drugged, in the last Thieves Guild quest you steal an Elder Scroll, and of course tons of Dark Brotherhood quests. Major thing I don't like about the game is that you don't need to have skill requirements for guilds.
 
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Derringer

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A comprehensive overhaul could likely un-fuck all of the factions, side quests and main quest, but it would always feel like a mod when you get to the part where voiced dialogue stops playing.
Why not just mute the shit voice acting?
 
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I just finished playing through Oblivion again with a few mods. I really have to say that I stand by my statements. The only thing that really bothers me is that it is stuck running singlethreaded and is really prone to crash.

I really hope they remaster it alongside Skyrim for the next console gen.
 

Luzur

Good Sir
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Oblivion is the embodiment of decline.

* Butcher the UI for the sake of consoles.
* Hide the cities behind loading screens, necessitating the removal of levitation so that the player can't go over the city walls.
* Make quests more "cinematic", necessitating the removal of teleportation spells so that the player can't break the quest scripting.
* Remove enchanting and alchemy cheese.
* Cut the number of major factions in half.
* Cut the number of armour slots by more than half.
* Introduce the most broken level scaling in history so that the player is never challenged and there's no sense of progression and the world stops making sense.
* No, really. Even quest rewards are level scaled, so those unique items you get early in the game get replaced with generic junk 2 levels later.
* "Streamline" the skill system until it stops making sense, like classifying axes as blunt weapons.
* Significantly reduce the importance of attributes.
* Significantly reduce the number of dialogue options.
* Replace Morrowind's contextual fast travel options with map-based fast travel.

But at least you get to hear NPCs have nonsensical conversations.

dont forget shrinking down "cities" and their population due to consoles get RRoD if they have to load more then 10 NPC's at once LOL
 

Avarize

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TES cities have been always been kinda weak though. Morrowind wasn't as bad but even there they weren't exactly large. Vivec and Imperial City were the size normal cities should have been.
 

502

Learned
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dont forget shrinking down "cities" and their population due to consoles get RRoD if they have to load more then 10 NPC's at once LOL

Who doesn't remember this grand army?



* "Streamline" the skill system until it stops making sense, like classifying axes as blunt weapons.

To me the biggest offense was having daggers and two handed swords in the same category. Skyrim's 1h-2h melee skills made more sense because Todd and his merry men had nowhere to go but up.
 

Luzur

Good Sir
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TES cities have been always been kinda weak though. Morrowind wasn't as bad but even there they weren't exactly large. Vivec and Imperial City were the size normal cities should have been.

Morrowind was a dangerous frontier area though, which kinda explains the small towns. Imperial City should have encompassed the whole island (which it does in the lore) and was supposed to have slums around the harbor. But yes these sizes should have been the normal town sizes, and then have the capitols be bigger, but then Bethesda would have been forced to make bigger landscapes which would kill consoles due to demanding too much RAM or something.
 
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Avarize

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Imperial City 4-5 times its size could have been epic. Especially with waterfront slums and extensive sewers/ruins beneath the city. I wouldn't even mind a TES game set in the city only and have it be absolutely massive and complex.
 

Funposter

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TES cities have been always been kinda weak though. Morrowind wasn't as bad but even there they weren't exactly large. Vivec and Imperial City were the size normal cities should have been.

Morrowind was a dangerous frontier area though, which kinda explains the small towns. Imperial City should have encompassed the whole island (which it does in the lore) and was supposed to have slums around the harbor. But yes thise sizes should have been the normal town sizes, and then have the capitols be bigger, but then Bethesda would have been forced to make bigger landscapes which would kill consoles due to demanding too much RAM or something.

It's a problem with scale and development. Bethesda's engine alongside the way they design NPCs (schedules etc.) isn't able to handle cities that are too large, hence why the Imperial City was segmented. It's also just absurd that capitals of counties/holds/whatever are considered "cities" when they hold maybe 50 people. This would feel less silly if TES games didn't take place across an entire province, but instead maybe a smaller portion of it. Imagine a TES game that took place only in Skyrim's Whiterun Hold - the main city of Whiterun can now afford to have a massive population (bigger than the IC, if segmented). Rorikstead and Riverwood, small villages in the original game, are still villages but considerably more realistic since they can afford to have 100+ people, maybe re-introduce Black Moor Keep as a settlement to fill in room. Oblivion and Skyrim were able to afford 855 and 1016 unique NPCs respectively. Part of the problem is that they're too spread out.
 

Luzur

Good Sir
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TES cities have been always been kinda weak though. Morrowind wasn't as bad but even there they weren't exactly large. Vivec and Imperial City were the size normal cities should have been.

Morrowind was a dangerous frontier area though, which kinda explains the small towns. Imperial City should have encompassed the whole island (which it does in the lore) and was supposed to have slums around the harbor. But yes thise sizes should have been the normal town sizes, and then have the capitols be bigger, but then Bethesda would have been forced to make bigger landscapes which would kill consoles due to demanding too much RAM or something.

It's a problem with scale and development. Bethesda's engine alongside the way they design NPCs (schedules etc.) isn't able to handle cities that are too large, hence why the Imperial City was segmented. It's also just absurd that capitals of counties/holds/whatever are considered "cities" when they hold maybe 50 people. This would feel less silly if TES games didn't take place across an entire province, but instead maybe a smaller portion of it. Imagine a TES game that took place only in Skyrim's Whiterun Hold - the main city of Whiterun can now afford to have a massive population (bigger than the IC, if segmented). Rorikstead and Riverwood, small villages in the original game, are still villages but considerably more realistic since they can afford to have 100+ people, maybe re-introduce Black Moor Keep as a settlement to fill in room. Oblivion and Skyrim were able to afford 855 and 1016 unique NPCs respectively. Part of the problem is that they're too spread out.

Well if Bethesda reworked their engine and only focused on the PC they prob could make their games bigger (like CP2077), but eh that demands effort ya know.
 

Funposter

Magister
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Messages
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TES cities have been always been kinda weak though. Morrowind wasn't as bad but even there they weren't exactly large. Vivec and Imperial City were the size normal cities should have been.

Morrowind was a dangerous frontier area though, which kinda explains the small towns. Imperial City should have encompassed the whole island (which it does in the lore) and was supposed to have slums around the harbor. But yes thise sizes should have been the normal town sizes, and then have the capitols be bigger, but then Bethesda would have been forced to make bigger landscapes which would kill consoles due to demanding too much RAM or something.

It's a problem with scale and development. Bethesda's engine alongside the way they design NPCs (schedules etc.) isn't able to handle cities that are too large, hence why the Imperial City was segmented. It's also just absurd that capitals of counties/holds/whatever are considered "cities" when they hold maybe 50 people. This would feel less silly if TES games didn't take place across an entire province, but instead maybe a smaller portion of it. Imagine a TES game that took place only in Skyrim's Whiterun Hold - the main city of Whiterun can now afford to have a massive population (bigger than the IC, if segmented). Rorikstead and Riverwood, small villages in the original game, are still villages but considerably more realistic since they can afford to have 100+ people, maybe re-introduce Black Moor Keep as a settlement to fill in room. Oblivion and Skyrim were able to afford 855 and 1016 unique NPCs respectively. Part of the problem is that they're too spread out.

Well if Bethesda reworked their engine and only focused on the PC they prob could make their games bigger (like CP2077), but eh that demands effort ya know.
I'm trying to be realistic, since focusing on consoles will never change. That being said, Fallout 4 has a less ridiculous job to pull off using their limited resources and its biggest city is still the size of a normal TES city, but that's maybe an example of Bethesda just being terrible at worldbuilding/not understanding Falliout.
 

Bad Sector

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Vivec and Imperial City were the size normal cities should have been.

This isn't so much a TES thing as a common element in game worlds where you get to visit multiple cities. It is something you see in other "open world" games too.

I do not remember where i read it since it was years ago but essentially the best way to think those cities is like a theatrical representation: in the theatre you may have just a couple of stands as a representation of a big market instead of an actual big market (which of course isn't possible to do in a theatre). Similarly, in games these small cities are just representations of huge cities and their size is in relation to each other's size instead of in absolute terms.

So Vivec is actually supposed to have several thousands of citizens and each canton is supposed to be like a self-contained city - which actually kinda fits in relation to the other cities since most small villages are spread out into a single cell and each canton is also a single cell but unlike a village, it has several "levels" too, meaning it can house more than a small village.
 

Avarize

Magister
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Vivec and Imperial City were the size normal cities should have been.

This isn't so much a TES thing as a common element in game worlds where you get to visit multiple cities. It is something you see in other "open world" games too.

I do not remember where i read it since it was years ago but essentially the best way to think those cities is like a theatrical representation: in the theatre you may have just a couple of stands as a representation of a big market instead of an actual big market (which of course isn't possible to do in a theatre). Similarly, in games these small cities are just representations of huge cities and their size is in relation to each other's size instead of in absolute terms.

So Vivec is actually supposed to have several thousands of citizens and each canton is supposed to be like a self-contained city - which actually kinda fits in relation to the other cities since most small villages are spread out into a single cell and each canton is also a single cell but unlike a village, it has several "levels" too, meaning it can house more than a small village.
That does nothing for me. I enjoy cities in games and if they are small they don't feel like cities. Also large cities can pack more city content in them. I haven't ever seen a truly great representation of a city in an RPG.
 

Devastator

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Oblivion seems more like a tech demo than a game. A world to play in a for a few hours until you get bored. The devs even put in clues that you should never play this game unironically, like that dialogue wheel where you chase happy and angry faces like a toddler.

In a way, Oblivion is basically poor man's Mirror's Edge. After the initial interest wears off, the most fun thing to do is to pump athletics and acrobatics. You can then traverse towns in circles by parkouring over rooftops and use that time to contemplate where it all went wrong.
 

Bad Sector

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
That does nothing for me. I enjoy cities in games and if they are small they don't feel like cities. Also large cities can pack more city content in them. I haven't ever seen a truly great representation of a city in an RPG.

Makes sense, since unless the RPG is all about a single city (assuming games with a seamless world, like Bethesda's games and not games that only focus on single areas with an abstracted overworld in between, like older Bioware games) you'll have to travel between several cities during the course of the game and considering the distances that can be tedious without some form of fast travel.

I mean, even in CP2077 after a while i started getting annoyed whenever i had to travel from one part of the city to another since i did that several times by that point, i certainly wouldn't like to have to do that in a world where there were multiple Night City-sized cities... and IMO fast travel is a cheap way out.
 

sser

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Because if you play Morrowind first you get to experience one of the most surreal and unique settings ever put to video games and done so with immense heart and dedication, and then you play Oblivion and it's a bunch of greenfields and fantasy England and the snapback is simply too much to handle.
 

Poseidon00

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Oblivion was damn ambitious with their character routines and I have to respect that. People leaving towns and traveling to others on certain days of the month and shit, that should be standard.
 
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Because it sucks. Now the real question is why does some (most?) of the Codex hate it more than Skyrim when Skyrim sucks even more. I mean, I'd rather play neither, but if I was forced to play one it wouldn't be Skyrim.
 

Butter

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Because it sucks. Now the real question is why does some (most?) of the Codex hate it more than Skyrim when Skyrim sucks even more. I mean, I'd rather play neither, but if I was forced to play one it wouldn't be Skyrim.
Oblivion sucks as both an RPG and an action game. Skyrim doesn't even try to be an RPG and borders on OK as an action game once you mod the fuck out of it. It's the same with FO3/FO4.
 
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TES cities have been always been kinda weak though. Morrowind wasn't as bad but even there they weren't exactly large. Vivec and Imperial City were the size normal cities should have been.

Morrowind was a dangerous frontier area though, which kinda explains the small towns. Imperial City should have encompassed the whole island (which it does in the lore) and was supposed to have slums around the harbor. But yes these sizes should have been the normal town sizes, and then have the capitols be bigger, but then Bethesda would have been forced to make bigger landscapes which would kill consoles due to demanding too much RAM or something.

If they weren't so gung-ho on sticking to their busted fuckin' Gamebryo engine, the novelty of being able to pick up a spoon, and the Radiant AI system that didn't even kind of work like what they originally showed...they could've probably had a huge Imperial City with lots of NPCs walking around. I mean GTA games had cities with people all over the place, and on console; I'm sure five years after GTA3, (which was a PS2 game) if they really wanted, they could have found a way to make the Imperial City larger.
 

Luzur

Good Sir
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TES cities have been always been kinda weak though. Morrowind wasn't as bad but even there they weren't exactly large. Vivec and Imperial City were the size normal cities should have been.

Morrowind was a dangerous frontier area though, which kinda explains the small towns. Imperial City should have encompassed the whole island (which it does in the lore) and was supposed to have slums around the harbor. But yes these sizes should have been the normal town sizes, and then have the capitols be bigger, but then Bethesda would have been forced to make bigger landscapes which would kill consoles due to demanding too much RAM or something.

If they weren't so gung-ho on sticking to their busted fuckin' Gamebryo engine, the novelty of being able to pick up a spoon, and the Radiant AI system that didn't even kind of work like what they originally showed...they could've probably had a huge Imperial City with lots of NPCs walking around. I mean GTA games had cities with people all over the place, and on console; I'm sure five years after GTA3, (which was a PS2 game) if they really wanted, they could have found a way to make the Imperial City larger.

But that would require effort and building a new engine from scratch bro LOL
 
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Because it sucks. Now the real question is why does some (most?) of the Codex hate it more than Skyrim when Skyrim sucks even more. I mean, I'd rather play neither, but if I was forced to play one it wouldn't be Skyrim.
Oblivion sucks as both an RPG and an action game. Skyrim doesn't even try to be an RPG and borders on OK as an action game once you mod the fuck out of it. It's the same with FO3/FO4.

I thought it sucked even more as an action game than Oblivion did. It has all the same problems as Oblivion when it comes to action, but it's also got new ones too because of the new system they came up with while trying to copy BioShock.

While I wouldn't say Skyrim is an RPG, it does want to have the veneer of one, and that veneer is a huge sloppy mess that does nothing to benefit the direction they seemingly want to take it. I thought the loss of the class system was a huge point against Skyrim, and just further layid bare how bad everything else was.
 

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