Pathfinder Why Owlcat's Kingmaker Sucks, in Plain Language

[Desiderius]

Aw. It's hard to trudge through these forums with your absence. I hope you're doing okay with life.

Never better.

 

[Desiderius]

I could show YT videos of a guy soloing the hardest parts of this game on his Gnome Illusionist Sorcerer which has terrible AC on Unfair difficulty.

That's nice. Thanks for sharing.

A couple corner cases doesn't destroy a game. Playing the game as intended means just not exploiting the few remaining loopholes.

It can eventually be mastered to the point if triviality even without the loopholes, but that requires a satisfying amount of effort and experience.

 

[Sykar]

I could show YT videos of a guy soloing the hardest parts of this game on his Gnome Illusionist Sorcerer which has terrible AC on Unfair difficulty.

That's nice. Thanks for sharing.

A couple corner cases doesn't destroy a game. Playing the game as intended means just not exploiting the few remaining loopholes.

It can eventually be mastered to the point if triviality even without the loopholes, but that requires a satisfying amount of effort and experience.

View attachment 12434

It is not really that exceptional or outstanding. Should be able to adjust this sorcerer to other sorcerers. Wizards can probably solo it as well just needs better planning/execution. 18 Sorc and 2 Vivi at the end for +4 cha mutagen is hardly something exceptional in terms of character building.

 

[Sykar]

I can only wonder how it will work and if they won't have to deadfire in the difficulty after release.

I am more concerned as to who the developers will listen to the most. The people who play on unfair. Or those of the likes of Gregz and the Porkies, oink oink.

I would play it on Unfair if we would get better AI and more optimized builds the AI can control to full effect instead of mindless stat increases. Challenging with flavor builds is much more fun than the Russian roulette called "Unfair".

 

[Shadenuat]

I don't understand how obsidianite thinks.

either say something is shit or not, I can't argue with true neutral.

you increase your stats to beat enemies in an RPG. .......so what? you have control over said increases? totally. you can circumvent it? yes. so where's the problem?

also that barbarian rages and cleric blesses to kill enemies is somehow jrpg from 32 hp to 9982 hp design. I learn something new.

You're having one of those days, huh. That's ok. The spirit of fantadomat inhabits all of us.

I didn't think "PKM very nice, AC bloat treadmill sucks tho" was that hard to understand but hey what do you know

liking stats mattering is being fantadomat now?

then again, fantadomat is great and what this forum truly deserves.

I like stat checks. I like enemies having high AC. and I like when in JRPGs end boss kills me with 800 damage while highest char has 300 hp because I didn't increase my Speed to the point of said boss not even getting a single turn.
you don't even like romance with 500 yo loli (but totally legal because shes a dragon ok) green haired anime girls though, what do you know.

if you want some different challenges but high ac its totally fine i agree. but I don't believe enemies should have low stats while you can have high stats.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

You can climb that treadmill if you like (even then P:K makes that treadmill itself more enjoyable than other games which resort to it), but you can also obviate it altogether via smart play (which is likely the underlying design). Definitely need to accentuate more of the latter than the former next time, but the game really handled the former in spectacular fashion on unfair lvl 8ish on.

View attachment 12432

^
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most memorable gaming experience ever.

If I ever do another playthrough Linzi just Dispels the Seamantle and voila no more treadmill but that was massive fun.

How did you have Tristian built in that fight? I've never even attempted to use a melee weapon with him.

every character can do some retarded dip into 17 different classes with stacked retard passives and other dumb shit to be viable
D&D 3e was a fucking mistake
anything beyond dual-classing was a retarded design decision

 

[Shadenuat]

that's the whole point of the system idiot.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

that's the whole point of the system idiot.

and it's a completely shit system

 

[Shadenuat]

i want to be a fantadomat

 

[Sykar]

that's the whole point of the system idiot.

and it's a completely shit system

It is vastly superior to "Oh you rolled these stats have fun staying like this for the rest of your life unless you find super rare tomes or lucky with Wish spells" 2nd Ed. AD&D. The problem with 3.5 is not the rule set but that people have no constraint like a sensible GM would have. Basically any GM I know including myself would not allow like 90% of the builds I have seen because there is no RP reason for almost any of those retarded dips outside of "muh munchkin ADS needz sätizfäctunz!"
The most retarded shit I have ever seen was taking one level of of crossblooded sorcerer with Dragon/Orc bloodline and then go 19 levels Evocation/Admixture wizard to enjoy that bonus damage for all your wizard spells while ignoring the big drawback of a crossblooded sorcerer of knowing one spell less per spell level, even though that shit makes 0 sense that your sorcerer bloodline arcana affects wizard spells. I wonder what kind of retarded GM let that ever happen. I for sure would not.

 

[Shadenuat]

i would allow it, you can play with me. and then I would create a world to play where everyone is retarded multiclass. with Pratchett humour.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

that's the whole point of the system idiot.

and it's a completely shit system

It is vastly superior to "Oh you rolled these stats have fun staying like this for the rest of your life unless you find super rare tomes or lucky with Wish spells" 2nd AD&D. The problem with 3.5 is not the rule set but that people have no constraint like a sensible GM would have. Basically any GM I know including myself would not allow like 90% of the builds I have seen because there is no RP reason for almost any of those retarded dips outside of "muh munchkin ADS needz sätizfäctunz!"

Point buy originated in 2E material you fucking mongoloid

Spoiler

 

[Sykar]

No one was talking about character generation but progression you dumbfuck.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

No one was talking about character generation but progression you dumbfuck.

Then your sentence has nothing to do with the actual discussion. Are you one of those retarded ESL faggots?

 

[Sykar]

No one was talking about character generation but progression you dumbfuck.

Then your sentence has nothing to do with the actual discussion. Are you one of those retarded ESL faggots?

You were complaining about "dip ins" and "17 different classes" which you cannot do until you are AT LEAST level 2 you imbecile so yes this was all about progression. That still does not change the fact that there is no attribute progression in AD&D 2nd ED and that your stats stay fixed for the rest of your life. Are you retarded or outright brain dead?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

That still does not change the fact that there is no attribute progression in AD&D 2nd ED and that your stats stay fixed for the rest of your life. Are you retarded or outright brain dead?

You mean D&D as Gygax actually intended it rather than stupid masturbatory munchkinism?

the idea is a good one, but I wonder about the practicality of such a benison in regards the long-term aspacts of having so many PCs with truly exceptional stats--stats that are generally gained by adventure in which deities give such a boost to a single stat as a reward for outstanding performance, an artifact is gaines, or a wish used.

Perhaps the main application for training should be to boost stats to above average. That is, make a character with some average stats move up to above average, qualify as a cavalier or paladin, etc.

 

[Sykar]

Oh please as if munchkin was something specific to 3.5. I literally left a 2nd ED group because they were rolling freaking 5d6 keeping the 3 highest 7 times so you can also discard one roll entirely which unsurprisingly led to every character having at least a 14 as their worst stat, our warrior had no stat below 17 and was just barely less charismatic than my bard.
That of course had to be compensate by giving that first level group of bandits at least half plate armor if not outright full plate because otherwise they would be no challenge whatsoever.
Nevermind that dual and especially multi classing could be just as much abused relatively speaking. Doubly true for IWD/BG games.

 

[DavidBVal]

The good: Pathfinder combat (with turn-based mod) was fun enough for me during my playthrough to make the game worth of my time. I encountered no bugs (played 1 month ago). Overall, I have to say I had a lot of fun and was enticed by my party and kingdom progress, always motivated to get the next upgrade etc. Looking back, I see that most of that progress was meaningless, but served its purpose during the game I guess. I liked the book-episodes. Boss-battles were often interesting.

The bad: Hidden timers are a horrible design choice, and quest design always looked like it would be "the real deal" but most of the times the complexity in choices was illusory, with one clear forced resolution, unless you wanted them to end badly. You are forced to play all companion storylines, even companions you don't use, or you lose very valuable XP and items, not to mention you may lose your best advisors; this alone will probably be enough to bar me from ever replaying the game, because they are long, railroaded, and some of them very annoying. And ffs, Nyrissa's portrait is truly abominable. Is she supposed to be an otherworldy beautiful temptress? maybe to furry millenials.

Probably most of the good things come from Paizo's Kingmaker and the Pathfinder system, and most of the worse stuff comes from Owlcat design and execution. That's my feeling with the game.

I am the kind of person that focuses on the good side and normally I am able to enjoy a game just for some of its qualities, so I think I had a 7/10 experience while playing the game. I enjoyed it more than other "modern" RPGs like WL2 or D:OS. However if I had to rate the "Aftertaste" it left me with a month later, it'd be something like 5.5/10. Without the TB mod there's no way I would have completed it.

 

[Shadenuat]

Probably most of the good things come from Paizo's Kingmaker and the Pathfinder system, and most of the worse stuff comes from Owlcat design and execution.

 

[Pink Eye]

Aw. It's hard to trudge through these forums with your absence. I hope you're doing okay with life.

Never better.

God Bless man.

 

[frajaq]

buff stacking was a mistake

 

[Syme]

that's the whole point of the system idiot.

and it's a completely shit system

The problem with 3.5 is not the rule set but that people have no constraint like a sensible GM would have. Basically any GM I know including myself would not allow like 90% of the builds I have seen because there is no RP reason for almost any of those retarded dips outside of "muh munchkin ADS needz sätizfäctunz!"

A wise DM once said: "Whatever retarded bullshit you come up with, expect to fight 3 of that in a random encounter."

 

[Sykar]

buff stacking was a mistake

So (A)D&D was a mistake?

 

[LannTheStupid]

Pathfinder combat (with turn-based mod)

Hidden timers are a horrible design choice

I see this pattern emerging again.

 

[Serus]

Pathfinder combat (with turn-based mod)

Hidden timers are a horrible design choice

I see this pattern emerging again.

What pattern ?