Pathfinder Why Owlcat's Kingmaker Sucks, in Plain Language

[Sykar]

Last sentence is nonsense. Conservatively you can easily reach -10 and more on THAC0 That is the equivalent of at least +30 to attack. That is just with weapon and strength bonus on base THAC0 once you factor in buffs you can probably achieve +35 - +40 effectively. Sorry to burst your bubble but high level D&D was always "bloated". From 3.5 on though you got some scaling defense so shit is not automatically over when you win initiative.

I am very aware of this fact, that is why I prefer low level DND to high level ones, as I stated earlier. I also sad that BG2 at least tried to contain it and had more interesting encounters as a result, not that they were entirely successful. By now everyone knows of rogue-dip kensai mage auto-attacking everything to death. This is not an argument in favour of anything though, this is indeed entirely my point that you yourself acknowledge so what are you trying to prove responding to me in a putative counter argument?

>Because the game allows the player exponential power growth but can only counter it by linear stat-bloat, which will never work.
The developers have gone on record and said that they have learned from this, i.e. they learned from making enemies into stat sticks. They said that they are working on introducing different tactical elements based on difficulty.

That's great and I am glad they learned unlike few here who are trying to prove otherwise, if they can add on the resource management of first game with more tactical combat then the second game will definitely be a much better and I am looking forward to it.

Because your post are not making a lick of sense. Stat bloat was always there. It means nothing in terms of "character expression". By your logic an RPG with no progression at all would be the height of "character expression".
BG 2 tried to contain it? Niggah HLAs were literally an invention by Bioware and it massively increased the power curve especially for melees. Greater Whirlwind attack spam was a thing.

 

[Shadenuat]

I am more concerned as to who the developers will listen to the most. The people who play on unfair. Or those of the likes of Gregz and the Porkies, oink oink.

You obviously didn't read my review

yeah we read lilura blog instead.

 

[Pink Eye]

I am more concerned as to who the developers will listen to the most. The people who play on unfair. Or those of the likes of Gregz and the Porkies, oink oink.

You obviously didn't read my review, combat difficult was never something that I complained about. It's the other 997 design decisions that you conveniently ignore that makes this game trash. I am amused that FreeKaner is pointing out some of the combat mechanics flaws however...yet you are still running to the defense of your silly game, and its incompetent developers. You are literally spending all day, every day, bumping the topics in here with shill comment after shill comment. It's suspiciously over the top.

Mate, try harder please. Provide something of substance and I might respond to you. Till then, quench your butt hurt. I can see ooze leaking out.

 

[FreeKaner]

Power increase is generally an expected result of RPGs, as long as you give tools to the players they'll come up with ways to get exponential result from them. In part fun of a RPGs does come from becoming powerful enough to overcome enemies. There are elegant ways of dealing with this, as adding enemies that require specific tactics, precision and tools to overcome and worse ways like deliberately going at the exceed of double the d20 in a d20 system. I have faith they can manage it, since making a good resource management system is harder than having encounters that require preparation to deal with which they seem to not shy away from thankfully. Unlike some other developers who take to heart the "design philosophy" that any and every combination of player character or party composition should be able to deal with any situation on their own end without taking into consideration the situation. A false idea of skill and knowledge.

 

[FreeKaner]

Because your post are not making a lick of sense. Stat bloat was always there. It means nothing in terms of "character expression". By your logic an RPG with no progression at all would be the height of "character expression".
BG 2 tried to contain it? Niggah HLAs were literally an invention by Bioware and it massively increased the power curve especially for melees. Greater Whirlwind attack spam was a thing.

That the problem always existed is supposed to prove that it is not a problem? Even the devs of the game seem to have acknowledged that they went wrong way about designing enemies and encounters, what are you defending here? Is this your idea of a sensible argument?

Hint, there is still a magnitude of difference between dealing with rolls up to 40 in a D20, which exists in very high level parts of BG2 and dealing with rolls at the excess of 20. Because it turns from a problem of quantity to a problem of quality. As you have to start stacking bonuses at the excess of 20, which means only natural 20 rolls are possible by enemies without any bonuses. This is mmo-ification.

Regardless, considering the devs did acknowledge this problem and will attempt to tackle it I have nothing else to argue. I hope they manage to make fun set piece encounters that require preparation and knowledge, perhaps adding in-game clues to it. Some of this does exist in PFK as well but not nearly enough. It's existence alone is great though because it shows that devs know the value of actual strategy and tactics beyond character creation screen, however impressive it might be.

 

[Gregz]

You are literally spending all day, every day, bumping the topics in here with shill comment after shill comment. It's suspiciously over the top.

Mate, try harder please. Provide something of substance

Can do:

...

100+ shill posts in less than 4 days.

 

[ga♥]

FreeKaner

Spoiler

Is a PoE fanboy.

 

[Sykar]

You are literally spending all day, every day, bumping the topics in here with shill comment after shill comment. It's suspiciously over the top.

Mate, try harder please. Provide something of substance

Can do:

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?search/88335682/
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?search/88335599/&page=2
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?search/88335599/&page=3
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?search/88335599/&page=4
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?search/88335599/&page=5

100+ shill posts in less than 4 days.

All links lead to error pages.

 

[Tigranes]

I ain't got time to get into all this detail, but by the broadest strokes, the actual experience of playing PKM - on Challenging, and more so in Hard - was definitely all about stacking your attributes and AC/BAB higher and higher every level.

You might get to like 70AC or whatever with buffs if you were really into it, you might swim along from 20 to 40 AC more casually, but that was the name of the game. And even on Challenging you could easily find 35+AC enemies meaning you had to also stack your attack bonus or basically need a crit roll to hit them. It's obviously and significantly more stacky than playing through BG (which, let us note, divided the 1-to-epic progression into 3 games that got shortened into 2.5 games). And yes, obviously it's closer to 3.5e D&D, but more extreme.

You can get into the details but seriously this is a game where you find +8 CHA bracelets and shit and you use all that bonuses to smash people by beating their AC progression with your BAB progression. Doesn't make the game 'too hard' or 'too easy' (completely irrelevant to this point). And maybe you like it. Either way it's there.

 

[Gregz]

You are literally spending all day, every day, bumping the topics in here with shill comment after shill comment. It's suspiciously over the top.

Mate, try harder please. Provide something of substance

Can do:

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?search/88335682/
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?search/88335599/&page=2
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?search/88335599/&page=3
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?search/88335599/&page=4
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?search/88335599/&page=5

100+ shill posts in less than 4 days.

All links lead to error pages.

Search for yourself

https://rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?members/pink-eye.27052/ -> Postings -> Find all content by Pink Eye

 

[Sykar]

I ain't got time to get into all this detail, but by the broadest strokes, the actual experience of playing PKM - on Challenging, and more so in Hard - was definitely all about stacking your attributes and AC/BAB higher and higher every level.

You might get to like 70AC or whatever with buffs if you were really into it, you might swim along from 20 to 40 AC more casually, but that was the name of the game. And even on Challenging you could easily find 35+AC enemies meaning you had to also stack your attack bonus or basically need a crit roll to hit them. It's obviously and significantly more stacky than playing through BG (which, let us note, divided the 1-to-epic progression into 3 games that got shortened into 2.5 games). And yes, obviously it's closer to 3.5e D&D, but more extreme.

You can get into the details but seriously this is a game where you find +8 CHA bracelets and shit and you use all that bonuses to smash people by beating their AC progression with your BAB progression. Doesn't make the game 'too hard' or 'too easy' (completely irrelevant to this point). And maybe you like it. Either way it's there.

Except AC is not the be all end all of defenses and is in fact basically useless against magic. In BG 2 you can find a +5 weapon that sets your strength to max fairly early. +4 Katana basically available if you know where to look right after Irenicus dungeon. Thanks to piss poor AI you could cheese the encounter for Staff of the Magi hard also available right after you leave Irenicus dungeon. Invis power was so broken if you repeatedly equipped and uneqipped it you could be effectively perma Invis which is why mods removed it. Etc.

 

[Shadenuat]

Just make them flat footed and hit touch ac.

Considering Tigranes plays TB, using all the trip blind aoo initiative combat invis blindness fear is obvious. granted it's other type of stacking but going around ac is something I did on my 1st playthough almost entirely since I don't like to play front loaded games and when dice are stacked against me when I can easily circumvent the issue by casting glitterdust.

 

[Tigranes]

???

So Sykar is telling me all about the ways you can break BG2 systems, and Shadenuat is telling me all about how to beat stacked AC. Uh, yeah, sure? We all know this. Why's it relevant?

As has already been said, the problem isn't that PKM sucks. It's great. The problem isn't that PKM's too hard. It's not.

The problem is that the entire system is built around a treadmill of increasing AC/BAB as the most important way to gain power and smash enemies, in a way that obviously exceeds AD&D CRPGs like BG1/2. You can tell me you think it's good design, I'll hear you out, but I don't know what trees you guys are climbing right now.

 

[Shadenuat]

I don't understand how obsidianite thinks.

either say something is shit or not, I can't argue with true neutral.

you increase your stats to beat enemies in an RPG. .......so what? you have control over said increases? totally. you can circumvent it? yes. so where's the problem?

also that barbarian rages and cleric blesses to kill enemies is somehow jrpg from 32 hp to 9982 hp design. I learn something new.

 

[Pink Eye]

???

So Sykar is telling me all about the ways you can break BG2 systems, and Shadenuat is telling me all about how to beat stacked AC. Uh, yeah, sure? We all know this. Why's it relevant?

As has already been said, the problem isn't that PKM sucks. It's great. The problem isn't that PKM's too hard. It's not.

The problem is that the entire system is built around a treadmill of increasing AC/BAB as the most important way to gain power and smash enemies, in a way that obviously exceeds AD&D CRPGs like BG1/2. You can tell me you think it's good design, I'll hear you out, but I don't know what trees you guys are climbing right now.

The problem here is that you're comparing DnD 3.5 to AD&D. I don't know what you are expecting from this rule set. The rule set is known for having ludicrous power bloat... From NWN 2 to Pathfinder: Kingmaker... This rule set is not any shape or form, balanced...

 

[Shadenuat]

the problem is PK is like BG1 in comparison of designers effort to actually make combat interesting.

somewhere around bg expansions (durlag) and then bg2, and its better parts, you see, the unknown designer(s) decided that, since they already have an engine and massive monstruary of sprites, they decided that maybe, just maybe, the monsters players fight everywhere should be varied, even if not always thematically appropriate, and the items you get should make players excited, instead of eh +2 short sword (u d think this is super obvious and most important in any fight monsters rpg ever, but for odd reason most rpgs get it wrong please dont say i sound like sawyer). so hes like, well this is some shadow dungeon so lets add werewolves and undead and draining shadows and some other weird shit and a BLACK DRAGON and, if you're in planar prison you fight some imps and slaves and elementals and fall into stones of arkham thing and golems and KAMBION etc.

now the kingmaker designer hopefully looked at this and tried to, and did well for first few parts, but then he

died.
or was sent into taiga or something, I don't know, but considering the state of bugged enemy abilities and critical lack of variation in many encounters (its casters. encounters heavy lack in good casters of different sorts.) I can only guess it's that or he got an amnesia and had to remember all he learned as DM all over again in dramatic journey with female ghost and skull and all that. and before that he spammed wolves and spiders everywhere.

somewhere around Varnhold lot designer got resurrected (or beaten up) and suddenly you get giants + human parties + dragons + fey + elementals + insertelse and that is what I would call the Ok Durlag Try.

after all that and with their previous resources I obviously wait for bandits with flaming arrows to turn into kangaxxes, all of them. so like BG1 > expansion > BG2; so must PK > varnhold > WoTR. If not, I'll eat Gregz.

Oh and the itemization guy with +8 charisma bracers at Owlcats, he never existed. A cat did it all.

tl;dr I believe the biggest fault of PK is owlcats being bad with tools they had. my proof is that Bioware had AD&D, and does anyone believe that system was more balanced and easier to work with?

 

[Tigranes]

I don't understand how obsidianite thinks.

either say something is shit or not, I can't argue with true neutral.

you increase your stats to beat enemies in an RPG. .......so what? you have control over said increases? totally. you can circumvent it? yes. so where's the problem?

also that barbarian rages and cleric blesses to kill enemies is somehow jrpg from 32 hp to 9982 hp design. I learn something new.

You're having one of those days, huh. That's ok. The spirit of fantadomat inhabits all of us.

I didn't think "PKM very nice, AC bloat treadmill sucks tho" was that hard to understand but hey what do you know

 

[Desiderius]

???

So Sykar is telling me all about the ways you can break BG2 systems, and Shadenuat is telling me all about how to beat stacked AC. Uh, yeah, sure? We all know this. Why's it relevant?

As has already been said, the problem isn't that PKM sucks. It's great. The problem isn't that PKM's too hard. It's not.

The problem is that the entire system is built around a treadmill of increasing AC/BAB as the most important way to gain power and smash enemies, in a way that obviously exceeds AD&D CRPGs like BG1/2. You can tell me you think it's good design, I'll hear you out, but I don't know what trees you guys are climbing right now.

You can climb that treadmill if you like (even then P:K makes that treadmill itself more enjoyable than other games which resort to it), but you can also obviate it altogether via smart play (which is likely the underlying design). Definitely need to accentuate more of the latter than the former next time, but the game really handled the former in spectacular fashion on unfair lvl 8ish on.

^
|
most memorable gaming experience ever.

If I ever do another playthrough Linzi just Dispels the Seamantle and voila no more treadmill but that was massive fun.

 

[Pink Eye]

???

So Sykar is telling me all about the ways you can break BG2 systems, and Shadenuat is telling me all about how to beat stacked AC. Uh, yeah, sure? We all know this. Why's it relevant?

As has already been said, the problem isn't that PKM sucks. It's great. The problem isn't that PKM's too hard. It's not.

The problem is that the entire system is built around a treadmill of increasing AC/BAB as the most important way to gain power and smash enemies, in a way that obviously exceeds AD&D CRPGs like BG1/2. You can tell me you think it's good design, I'll hear you out, but I don't know what trees you guys are climbing right now.

You can climb that treadmill if you like (even then P:K makes that treadmill itself more enjoyable than other games which resort to it), but you can also obviate it altogether via smart play (which is likely the underlying design). Definitely need to accentuate more of the latter than the former next time, but the game really handled the former in spectacular fashion on unfair lvl 8ish on.

View attachment 12432

He's back!

 

[Desiderius]

???

So Sykar is telling me all about the ways you can break BG2 systems, and Shadenuat is telling me all about how to beat stacked AC. Uh, yeah, sure? We all know this. Why's it relevant?

As has already been said, the problem isn't that PKM sucks. It's great. The problem isn't that PKM's too hard. It's not.

The problem is that the entire system is built around a treadmill of increasing AC/BAB as the most important way to gain power and smash enemies, in a way that obviously exceeds AD&D CRPGs like BG1/2. You can tell me you think it's good design, I'll hear you out, but I don't know what trees you guys are climbing right now.

You can climb that treadmill if you like (even then P:K makes that treadmill itself more enjoyable than other games which resort to it), but you can also obviate it altogether via smart play (which is likely the underlying design). Definitely need to accentuate more of the latter than the former next time, but the game really handled the former in spectacular fashion on unfair lvl 8ish on.

View attachment 12432

He's back!

I stop by to read occasionally. Freekaner's commentary has been exceptional and merits a response.

 

[Sykar]

???

So Sykar is telling me all about the ways you can break BG2 systems, and Shadenuat is telling me all about how to beat stacked AC. Uh, yeah, sure? We all know this. Why's it relevant?

As has already been said, the problem isn't that PKM sucks. It's great. The problem isn't that PKM's too hard. It's not.

The problem is that the entire system is built around a treadmill of increasing AC/BAB as the most important way to gain power and smash enemies, in a way that obviously exceeds AD&D CRPGs like BG1/2. You can tell me you think it's good design, I'll hear you out, but I don't know what trees you guys are climbing right now.

You can climb that treadmill if you like (even then P:K makes that treadmill itself more enjoyable than other games which resort to it), but you can also obviate it altogether via smart play (which is likely the underlying design). Definitely need to accentuate more of the latter than the former next time, but the game really handled the former in spectacular fashion on unfair lvl 8ish on.

View attachment 12432

^
|
most memorable gaming experience ever.

If I ever do another playthrough Linzi just Dispels the Seamantle and voila no more treadmill but that was massive fun.

I could show YT videos of a guy soloing the hardest parts of this game on his Gnome Illusionist Sorcerer which has terrible AC on Unfair difficulty.

 

[Pink Eye]

???

So Sykar is telling me all about the ways you can break BG2 systems, and Shadenuat is telling me all about how to beat stacked AC. Uh, yeah, sure? We all know this. Why's it relevant?

As has already been said, the problem isn't that PKM sucks. It's great. The problem isn't that PKM's too hard. It's not.

The problem is that the entire system is built around a treadmill of increasing AC/BAB as the most important way to gain power and smash enemies, in a way that obviously exceeds AD&D CRPGs like BG1/2. You can tell me you think it's good design, I'll hear you out, but I don't know what trees you guys are climbing right now.

You can climb that treadmill if you like (even then P:K makes that treadmill itself more enjoyable than other games which resort to it), but you can also obviate it altogether via smart play (which is likely the underlying design). Definitely need to accentuate more of the latter than the former next time, but the game really handled the former in spectacular fashion on unfair lvl 8ish on.

View attachment 12432

He's back!

I stop by to read occasionally. Freekaner's commentary has been exceptional and merits a response.

Aw. It's hard to trudge through these forums with your absence. I hope you're doing okay with life.

 

[anvi]

I agree with OP. I don't think it is terrible, but I think it tries to do too much and ends up doing a fairly weak job of everything. Some things are especially weak. The kingdom management thing really was just not enjoyable and was so unnecessary too. If they just focused on making an actual RPG, maybe it would be decent. Although even with that, there are mistakes. I gave it a good shot but I stopped playing near the end of CH2 or early in CH3 or so. It was just becoming repetitive and boring. I went and played TOEE instead and it was so much better.

 

[Lawntoilet]

You can climb that treadmill if you like (even then P:K makes that treadmill itself more enjoyable than other games which resort to it), but you can also obviate it altogether via smart play (which is likely the underlying design). Definitely need to accentuate more of the latter than the former next time, but the game really handled the former in spectacular fashion on unfair lvl 8ish on.

View attachment 12432

^
|
most memorable gaming experience ever.

If I ever do another playthrough Linzi just Dispels the Seamantle and voila no more treadmill but that was massive fun.

How did you have Tristian built in that fight? I've never even attempted to use a melee weapon with him.

 

[Desiderius]

You can climb that treadmill if you like (even then P:K makes that treadmill itself more enjoyable than other games which resort to it), but you can also obviate it altogether via smart play (which is likely the underlying design). Definitely need to accentuate more of the latter than the former next time, but the game really handled the former in spectacular fashion on unfair lvl 8ish on.

View attachment 12432

^
|
most memorable gaming experience ever.

If I ever do another playthrough Linzi just Dispels the Seamantle and voila no more treadmill but that was massive fun.

How did you have Tristian built in that fight? I've never even attempted to use a melee weapon with him.

Ecclesitheurge/Scion/MT I think. He was tanking. I was playing poorly or his AB would have been mid 50s. Now that Vital Strike is fixed he should be able to wreck house lategame with Aspect. You need a Cleric, might as well build him to take advantage of good Cleric self-buffs. All my casters could also fight to minimize rests.

The point is that the difference between 46 and mid50s still matters, which is good design, and that there are tradeoffs for getting there (giving up Touch of Good to get Mirror Image via Scion so he can tank, etc...). High numbers doesn't necessarily mean bloat if the numbers are meaningful and the result of interesting decisions.