Pathfinder Why Owlcat's Kingmaker Sucks, in Plain Language

[Desiderius]

You can climb that treadmill if you like (even then P:K makes that treadmill itself more enjoyable than other games which resort to it), but you can also obviate it altogether via smart play (which is likely the underlying design). Definitely need to accentuate more of the latter than the former next time, but the game really handled the former in spectacular fashion on unfair lvl 8ish on.

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most memorable gaming experience ever.

If I ever do another playthrough Linzi just Dispels the Seamantle and voila no more treadmill but that was massive fun.

How did you have Tristian built in that fight? I've never even attempted to use a melee weapon with him.

every character can do some retarded dip into 17 different classes with stacked retard passives and other dumb shit to be viable
D&D 3e was a fucking mistake
anything beyond dual-classing was a retarded design decision

No, he's a straight up Mystic Theurge, just like he was likely designed to be given his 16CHR and myriad ways for Clerics/Scions to overcome low MT BAB. Archon's Aura is the most powerful debuff in the game and you need to be in melee to make it most effective. The puzzle of making that happen with Tristian is the opposite of retarded or dumb - it's what makes games fun. The fact that solving that puzzle parallels Tristian's character arc in the game (and the resonance of that arc to the RL process of transformation of cucks into functional/valuable men) is what makes the game sublime.

As for splashes, most (especially Vivi) are actively bad, especially for offensive casters which need caster level above all else.

 

[Jinn]

What pattern ?

He thinks people who prefer turn-based combat are idiots, and thus also unable to handle mechanics like hidden quest timers.

Yes, this is the codex we live in today...

 

[Desiderius]

Pathfinder combat (with turn-based mod)

Hidden timers are a horrible design choice

I see this pattern emerging again.

What pattern ?

Inordinate fear of the passage of time (i.e. mortality).

 

[Desiderius]

It is not really that exceptional or outstanding. Should be able to adjust this sorcerer to other sorcerers. Wizards can probably solo it as well just needs better planning/execution. 18 Sorc and 2 Vivi at the end for +4 cha mutagen is hardly something exceptional in terms of character building.

The game has yet (to my knowledge) to be played on the hardest setting - unfair kingdom management. Tht would blow this rest spam build right out of the water. My last playthrough I radically minimized rest. Here's VTomb full clear Unfair, no rest:

But my kingdom management was still on regular, so I just got a ton of benefits like all masterpieces by Pitax. If you put KM on unfair you'd have to play like this just to survive.

And again, that Vivi splash is awful. Caster level is the hardest cap.

 

[DalekFlay]

Just started playing this for the the first time so I've only skimmed the thread for fear of spoilers. I will say I read a lot about the swarm enemies being a big bad of the game design, but I just did the spider cave at level 2 and had no real issue. The alchemist tells you how to fight them and even gives you the potions to do so. I did have one reload while learning how to deal with them, but it wasn't a big deal. Granted that's on hard, not extreme or whatever, but still.

 

[Pink Eye]

Pathfinder combat (with turn-based mod)

Hidden timers are a horrible design choice

I see this pattern emerging again.

What pattern ?

Inordinate fear of the passage of time (i.e. mortality).

It's okay. We'll punch mortality in the face!

 

[Shadenuat]

What pattern ?

He thinks people who prefer turn-based combat are idiots, and thus also unable to handle mechanics like hidden quest timers.

Yes, this is the codex we live in today...

you think TB somehow can serve as a river to hold off casuals?

all popular tabletop funfunny games are tb (even GASP women play them), most JRPGs are TB, many phone games, fuck, I play Warhammer, and it is kinda complicated - you need all the models (costing in thousands of $$$), to paint them, to set up table, myriad of books and supplements,

you would think people at least would remember rules for their own units, right? lol no. or maybe everyone would be good and don't whine that their personal favorite faction/unit is underpowered and game is too hard to them? lol
and if anything, english speaking people like to read rules wrong in the most retarded ways by the way.

if tb would make game easy for them, they'd praise it.
if it would make game punishing, they won't care if it's tb - see AoD reviews.

hell DOS2 is TB. and it has more degenerate mechanics I can count. you want to see linear trash with REAL jrpg numbers from 0 to 50000, mmo world, diablo loot and no choices? try DOS2. very popular gaem, highly praised by everyone.

 

[Serus]

What pattern ?

He thinks people who prefer turn-based combat are idiots, and thus also unable to handle mechanics like hidden quest timers.

Yes, this is the codex we live in today...

you think TB somehow can serve as a river to hold off casuals?

all popular tabletop funfunny games are tb (even GASP women play them), most JRPGs are TB, many phone games, fuck, I play Warhammer, and it is kinda complicated - you need all the models (costing in thousands of $$$), to paint them, to set up table, myriad of books and supplements,

you would think people at least would remember rules for their own units, right? lol no. or maybe everyone would be good and don't whine that their personal favorite faction/unit is underpowered and game is too hard to them? lol
and if anything, english speaking people like to read rules wrong in the most retarded ways by the way.

if tb would make game easy for them, they'd praise it.
if it would make game punishing, they won't care if it's tb - see AoD reviews.

hell DOS2 is TB. and it has more degenerate mechanics I can count. you want to see linear trash with REAL jrpg numbers from 0 to 50000, mmo world, diablo loot and no choices? try DOS2. very popular gaem, highly praised by everyone.

What you just wrote maybe true but it doesn't answer the question. What pattern.

 

[LannTheStupid]

What pattern.

There are 10 kinds of people: those who can handle passage of time and those who can't.

 

[DavidBVal]

Probably most of the good things come from Paizo's Kingmaker and the Pathfinder system, and most of the worse stuff comes from Owlcat design and execution.

I said "MOST"

 

[Serus]

What pattern.

There are 10 kinds of people: those who can handle passage of time and those who can't.

That's deep. I need to retire for a while to contemplate.

 

[Pink Eye]

What pattern.

There are 10 kinds of people: those who can handle passage of time and those who can't.

That's deep. I need to retire for a while to contemplate.

Drink some vodka and play Pathfinder. That will help ease the existential crisis.

 

[Shadenuat]

man I already want to play next campaign. I need my fix.

 

[Jinn]

Funnily enough, I'd wager this thread has gotten more people to play the game than to deter them from it.

 

[Pink Eye]

???

So Sykar is telling me all about the ways you can break BG2 systems, and Shadenuat is telling me all about how to beat stacked AC. Uh, yeah, sure? We all know this. Why's it relevant?

As has already been said, the problem isn't that PKM sucks. It's great. The problem isn't that PKM's too hard. It's not.

The problem is that the entire system is built around a treadmill of increasing AC/BAB as the most important way to gain power and smash enemies, in a way that obviously exceeds AD&D CRPGs like BG1/2. You can tell me you think it's good design, I'll hear you out, but I don't know what trees you guys are climbing right now.

You can climb that treadmill if you like (even then P:K makes that treadmill itself more enjoyable than other games which resort to it), but you can also obviate it altogether via smart play (which is likely the underlying design). Definitely need to accentuate more of the latter than the former next time, but the game really handled the former in spectacular fashion on unfair lvl 8ish on.

View attachment 12432

^
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most memorable gaming experience ever.

If I ever do another playthrough Linzi just Dispels the Seamantle and voila no more treadmill but that was massive fun.

This is one of my favorite moments in Pathfinder.

Spoiler

My monk managed to do TWO 100 crits, followed by two 50 hits, all in one round. It was amazing.

 

[Shadenuat]

Funnily enough, I'd wager this thread has gotten more people to play the game than to deter them from it.

well Gregz quotes are perfect reverse marketing review. "plays like boardgame"? "main quest time limit"? you meet monsters you can't beat right away and have to return later??

anyone who likes rpgs would be basically

 

[Pink Eye]

Speaking of Gregz. Here, anons made a beautiful collage. I have to share it!

Spoiler

 

[Shadenuat]

note the beginning of review of left bottom one.

 

[Gregz]

What pattern ?

He thinks people who prefer turn-based combat are idiots, and thus also unable to handle mechanics like hidden quest timers.

Yes, this is the codex we live in today...

That's not what he said at all, and did you miss his tag?

You bake bread for a living.

 

[Jinn]

That's not what he said at all, and did you miss his tag?

You bake bread for a living.

I was referring to this

I see this pattern emerging again.

The guy quoting the developer. The developer that I respect and was essentially defending. I agree with DavidBVal's reasonable feelings on Kingmaker for the most part.

I'd thank you to leave my profession out of things too, thank you very much.

 

[Silly Germans]

You can climb that treadmill if you like (even then P:K makes that treadmill itself more enjoyable than other games which resort to it), but you can also obviate it altogether via smart play (which is likely the underlying design). Definitely need to accentuate more of the latter than the former next time, but the game really handled the former in spectacular fashion on unfair lvl 8ish on.

View attachment 12432

^
|
most memorable gaming experience ever.

If I ever do another playthrough Linzi just Dispels the Seamantle and voila no more treadmill but that was massive fun.

How did you have Tristian built in that fight? I've never even attempted to use a melee weapon with him.

every character can do some retarded dip into 17 different classes with stacked retard passives and other dumb shit to be viable
D&D 3e was a fucking mistake
anything beyond dual-classing was a retarded design decision

They should simply couple the boni from class feats to your respective class level. This way you would actually
have to dedicate to the classes and not simply dip in a bunch of levels to get that one power build feat.
That would make actual class levels more meaningful without losing the importance of feats. At the moment
it feels like class levels only matter as a prerequisite for feats, especially for martial classes. If they scaled similar
spells, it would be more interesting.

 

[Shadenuat]

It's only really a big deal for Monk AC. and if you tie it to their level, they will have no ac at low levels.

 

[Pink Eye]

note the beginning of review of left bottom one.

"I've Dmed Pathfinder for over 7 years now, and I was never as much of a capricious and scournful god as this game is"

Yeah. Reminds me of the old steam days.

 

[Gregz]

note the beginning of review of left bottom one.

"I've Dmed Pathfinder for over 7 years now, and I was never as much of a capricious and scournful god as this game is"

Yeah. Reminds me of the old steam days.

Miss the accurate commentary from experienced gamers?

How old are you again, 17? Have you played any other D&D cRPGs? Have you ever played PnP D&D? My guess is no.

 

[Pink Eye]

note the beginning of review of left bottom one.

"I've Dmed Pathfinder for over 7 years now, and I was never as much of a capricious and scournful god as this game is"

Yeah. Reminds me of the old steam days.

Miss the accurate commentary from experienced gamers?

Nah. I just remember I used to school people like you in the steam discussions. Desiderius too.