Pathfinder Why Owlcat's Kingmaker Sucks, in Plain Language

[rusty_shackleford]

going through steam accounts in the codex group and of the people who own kingmaker, barely any of them actually have the achievement for beating it


let the excuses flow

 

[Desiderius]

I technically haven't beaten it.

 

[DalekFlay]

Maybe he gets whiny later, but at this point, it simply looks like better presentation of some things could have helped.

The game absolutely does not explain things well enough for Pathfinder novices, which a ton of game players will be. I had pretty good knowledge of the basics because of old D&D games, but even I had to google a ton of shit. I kind of see that googling as "reading the manual" in the year of our lord 2020, but people aren't trained to do that shit anymore. I also think some of the quests and repercussions of those quests are vague at times, which causes confusion, and a lot of that might be a translation issue.

Still... I think the game is easy enough on "challenging" you don't have to be Mr. Wizard Ace at Pathfinder rules to do fine at it, so that must be even more true of normal. The wererats killed me a couple times until I realized I should protect myself from fire for the alchemist and focus on the sneaky ones one at a time, then it was easy. I just did a hard first world fight on the far Western edge of the map that took a couple tries before I figured out I feel like that kind of stuff is normal for RtwP RPGs.

going through steam accounts in the codex group and of the people who own kingmaker, barely any of them actually have the achievement for beating it

Some of us own it on the most prestiguous of websites, GOG.com.

 

[LannTheStupid]

going through steam accounts in the codex group and of the people who own kingmaker, barely any of them actually have the achievement for beating it

I am playing Kingmaker without any online client.

Well, you wanted excuses - here they are.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

kind of see that googling as "reading the manual" in the year of our lord 2020, but people aren't trained to do that shit anymore. I

The only good excuse for this to begin with was storage sizes.
ToEE set the bar for what information should be available to the player in-game, any game designer working on a cRPG should at least go experience that part of it.

 

[LannTheStupid]

I wonder if anyone complaining about the lack of information in Pathfinder: Kingmaker has ever read the in-game encyclopedia.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I wonder if anyone complaining about the lack of information in Pathfinder: Kingmaker has ever read the in-game encyclopedia.

If they want them to read the encyclopedia then they should link to it whenever possible. You know, like ToEE did.

 

[Silly Germans]

Ingame encyclopedia's only work if they are truly complete and comprehensive.
Some games tried but they often lack the technical details . As soon as that
happens you will end up asking Dr. Google for help, which makes the encyclopedia
pointless or even worse, a wast of your time. I think PoE 2 is one of those games.

 

[LannTheStupid]

If they want them to read the encyclopedia them they should link to it whenever possible. You know, like ToEE did.

I see huge difference between availability of information and convenience of its use. If the information is unavailable then compiants about the lack of it are justified; if the information is available but inconvenient then complaining reveals lazyness and nothing more.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

If they want them to read the encyclopedia them they should link to it whenever possible. You know, like ToEE did.

I see huge difference between availability of information and convenience of its use. If the information is unavailable then compiants about the lack of it are justified; if the information is available but inconvenient then complaining reveals lazyness and nothing more.

It's the developer's responsibility to provide good UX.
Hell, a fucking single French guy subsisting entirely on roots was capable of doing what companies with multi-million dollar budgets can't do. Absolute insanity.

 

[NJClaw]

Care to share some Kingmaker sales figures?

Wait, sales figures?

It sold enough to warrant a sequel, which gathered 2 million dollars with its kickstarter campaign. What sales figures do you need?

 

[Desiderius]

Jesus, Gregz, I technically haven't beaten a game in twenty years.

Different people play games different ways. Once I've mastered an approach I try a new one or a new game.

If you're still trying to convince yourself that P:K is too hard give it up, man, it's just not happening.

 

[Desiderius]

Hell, a fucking single French guy subsisting entirely on roots was capable of doing what companies with multi-million dollar budgets can't do. Absolute insanity.

What's insane about it? Multi-million dollar budgets attract parasites. That's Mother Fucking Nature for you.

Inspiring people to subsist on roots to help you with your work is the rare and important thing. We'll see if they learn how to make it more dynamic - they did have links in dialogue to highlight C&C so looks like they know how to do that sort of thing.

 

[Desiderius]

I'm butthurt about enjoying a game so much I played it for 2,000 hours? Your stupidity makes my head hurt and the misery inside you driving you to do whatever it is you're trying to accomplish here makes my heart hurt a little but no, my butt's just fine thx.

My theory is that MMO vets (Guild Wars/LotRO here) don't finish games because you get out of the habit in MMOs.

 

[LannTheStupid]

It's the developer's responsibility to provide good UX.

Responsibility to whom?

By Owlcat's standards Kingnaker was successful. The Kickstarter for WotR exceeded their expectations. It means they have fulfiled their responsibilities to everyone meaningful.

I think the plague of all modern Western creative work is the feeling that they should be accessible and inclusive for everyone. I hope that "invisible hand of the market" will set it right one way or another.

 

[DalekFlay]

I wonder if anyone complaining about the lack of information in Pathfinder: Kingmaker has ever read the in-game encyclopedia.

It absolutely does not have all the nuances in it. I mean, if you never played BG and have no idea what AC is then yes, the encyclopedia is a solid resource. If you're looking for the intricacies of the Pathfinder system and how it differs from others then you're probably gonna have to google some stuff. It has good tooltips and explanations for some important things, but lacks them for others. Same with quests sometimes not offering enough textual clues, when most others do. There's an inconsistency about how well the game provides information which bothers some people. How big a deal is that is depends on the person. For me it was a minor annoyance at times, for others it might be enough to put the game down.

Responsibility to whom?

By Owlcat's standards Kingnaker was successful. The Kickstarter for WotR exceeded their expectations. It means they have fulfiled their responsibilities to everyone meaningful.

Anyone buying Kingmaker in the first place is part of the relatively small niche there is for games like this. No one is randomly buying Kingmaker after playing Call of Duty and Assassin's Creed for years expecting it to be like those games, it's dedicated CRPG fans who are complaining. Why you'd want to alienate people when you're already selling to a small crowd, I have no idea. Though I guess if you live in bumfuck Russia and 2 million U.S. can keep your studio afloat for years then hey, maybe you don't give a shit.

 

[LannTheStupid]

Though I guess if you live in bumfuck Russia and 2 million U.S. can keep your studio afloat for years then hey, maybe you don't give a shit.

I think this is the only way to make a good game nowadays. May be this is how the market separates the sheep from the goats. Any Western attempt to sell more than a million copies will inevitably produce a mediocrity or a slot machine disguised as a game. May be the necessary separation lies either in studio income expectations or in the cultural rifts (thus Monster Hunter: World is both brilliant, popular, and the vision of its creator has not diluted yet).

 

[Darth Canoli]

(thus Monster Hunter: World is both brilliant, popular, and the vision of its creator has not diluted yet).

What the fuck does that dogshit for retarded console weeaboos has do with Kingmaker ?
Just watched a video to be sure, voiced tutorial explaining how to walk, open your inventory and lace your shoes, quest compass, jump and climb for no reason except is cool and roll slide to avoid enemy's attacks ... what vision is that exactly ?
Milking the Dark Soul fanboys ?

 

[NJClaw]

(thus Monster Hunter: World is both brilliant, popular, and the vision of its creator has not diluted yet).

What the fuck does that dogshit for retarded console weeaboos has do with Kingmaker ?
Just watched a video to be sure, voiced tutorial explaining how to walk, open your inventory and lace your shoes, quest compass, jump and climb for no reason except is cool and roll slide to avoid enemy's attacks ... what vision is that exactly ?
Milking the Dark Soul fanboys ?

Imagine being able to milk Dark Souls fanboys even before the release of the original Dark Souls.

 

[Darth Canoli]

So what ? They clearly have the same influences and they're both action-console-jrpg, i don't really care for their chronology.
Now, what's the link with Kingmaker ?

Spoiler

Except they all suck.

 

[GarfunkeL]

There's a Codex steam group?

There are groups on Steam?

EDIT: oh shit, I'm already a member

 

[trais]

I've skipped playing this game on release because I've read about all the bugs, so now it is my first time playing. I'm using TB mod and man, it improves gameplay a lot.

So, Killing Stag Lord was challenging but fun, followed the Troll quest-chain which was quite amazing overall. Then, Season of Bloom got little bit tiresome with owlbear/manticore/wyvern spam, but by then I've managed to get a good grasp of ruleset and got through it quickly. Varnhold/Vordakai was a mixed bag (another spamfest, though this time is was spriggans followed by undead cyclops, but with few cool moments like having to wipe a dining hall choke-full of zombies). Armag's Tomb was really boring, basically just traps and skeletons, then more traps and skeletons, followed by even more traps and skeletons. At least the dungeon's boss went down quickly and easily thanks to the amazing power of Grease spell, so there was that. Tho' I had to reload once, because at my first attempt he won the initiative roll, charged at my main char, 1-shotted him with a crit and it was game over before I could even do a thing.

But then I got the crown and the fucking kingdom management murdered me with it tediousness. Who the fuck designed that shit. I didn't mind it when I was dealing with small barony, in fact I enjoyed it quite a bit. Placing villages and buildings was fun. Sure, it was basically repeating same steps every time with few variations, but I really didn't mind it the first 5 times I had to do it.

But with kingdom, spam started again - this time with events and upgrades. Most annoyingly the events repeat themselves over and over again. Is it really necessary to deal with some illusionist counterfeiting gold coins every few months? Or a poltergeist in a temple? Or with the some fucking mermaid in the harbor? I would understand if I had to redo them after failures, as the underlying problem would persist to rear its ugly head in the future, but that shit kept and kept coming back even after successes and triumphs. I guess I was running into the same events again and again because there were only so few of them implemented - but then each and every one consisted only of few sentences of text, no custom graphics or anything - there's simply no excuse in having them in such limited amount.

Then there are barony/kingdom stat upgrades. What a fucking bundle of joy. With 10 stats, if each goes from rank 1 to rank 10, then you'll have to do them 90 times. 90 times the joy of watching 2 weeks passing by on the map screen, day by day, without letting you do anything in the meantime. Other than getting up from a computer to take a quick piss or make some coffee that is. Why not make it 3 ranks - starting 1st rank, then 2nd unlocks new council position, and finally 3rd maxes stat and give you some nice bonus. If devs needed some way of moving in game calendar forward, rank upgrades weren't the smart way to do it, that's for sure.

Sure, I could say "to hell with all this" and set the kingdom management to easy/automatic, but I know that it would be something always in the back of my head, nagging. Plus, I'm not sure if I can handle killing yet another ferocious (dweomer)owlbear without puking and I know Narissa still has plenty of them, waiting for me. So I can't say I'm looking forward to doing more quests, because I feel it will be same enemies, copy-pasted 15 times in different rooms, with some traps in between them.

So I think I'm done with this game. From what I've heard PF:K really frontloads its fun content and the late game is meh. Is there a reason for me to continue, or if I'm not having fun anymore by midgame, I presume, then I'm not gonna start having fun later in game?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

So I think I'm done with this game. From what I've heard PF:K really frontloads its fun content and the late game is meh. Is there a reason for me to continue, or if I'm not having fun anymore by midgame, I presume, then I'm not gonna start having fun later in game?

the game is about 50 hours too long for its own good, you already did all the good content

 

[Darth Canoli]

So I think I'm done with this game. From what I've heard PF:K really frontloads its fun content and the late game is meh. Is there a reason for me to continue, or if I'm not having fun anymore by midgame, I presume, then I'm not gonna start having fun later in game?

There is some fun bits swamped by all the shit you described and more, it's like 10/15% of the game.
Also, even if it's linear, i found the Varnholm DLC worth playing once (it's a standalone), no kingdom management here and a big dungeon to explore.

 

[LannTheStupid]

if I'm not having fun anymore

if you're not a member of the Owlcat team then don't force youself to play the game that is no fun anymore.