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Pathfinder Why Owlcat's Kingmaker Sucks, in Plain Language

Desiderius

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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
It's designed to be replayed. If you're a one playthrough type, it's not really going to be your cup of tea.

Still learning significant things on sixth time through (maybe fifteenth restart?). Some repetitive fights sure, but content very deep, including KM (though yes still underwhelming).
 

trais

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It's designed to be replayed. If you're a one playthrough type, it's not really going to be your cup of tea.

I could replay the first few chapters again with different PC, and go around killing mites instead of kobolds under Old Sycamore for exp this time around, but there isn't any way to skip fighting hordes of owlbears and undead cyclopes, is there?
 

Desiderius

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Insert Title Here Pathfinder: Wrath
Looks like P:K's Kingdom Management turned out to be roughly equivalent to Deadfire's Ship Combat.

What happened there from a dev perspective.
 

Desiderius

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It's designed to be replayed. If you're a one playthrough type, it's not really going to be your cup of tea.

I could replay the first few chapters again with different PC, and go around killing mites instead of kobolds under Old Sycamore for exp this time around, but there isn't any way to skip fighting hordes of owlbears and undead cyclopes, is there?

If you play a Neutral MC you can negotiate peace at Old Sycamore, get a big chunk of EXP, and not have to fight them at all. Many such cases.

As for Owlbears and Cyclopes, it doesn't feel like hordes if you're learning a new class while fighting them/finding the right class to own them, which is why I think they're there. I've finally gotten to the point where I design different companions for different chapters (since you have so many pretty sure that was the intention), and it both keeps things fresh (as in new) and fresh in that the battles are far less grueling with skills optimized for the opponents I'm facing. There are also at least three viable builds for each companion, different ways the classes integrate with each other (the group skills/feats are the strongest ones), etc...

If you're still playing save or die Grease at lvl 14 you're kind of missing the point of the game, which is fine - the strength of the game is how much you miss the first time through and figure out later with the enjoyable Aha! that comes with that - but doesn't put one in the best position (yet) to say (with authority) whether a game sucks or not.
 
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Desiderius

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As for KM, for better or for worse most of the best (in both a statistical sense and an interesting/unique experience sense) gear is gated behind good KM, with what good KM entails being highly non-obvious.

Over many playthroughs determined that taking the 500 BP up front is a no-brainer, Artisans (they bankroll everything else in addition to providing best gear) and Rank-ups come before anything else (which ultimately means that every rest you take has a very real cost, learning to travel light has a huge benefit), and that midgame payoffs are real and they are spectacular.

On the flip side, as with everything else lategame is scandalously empty. All those fancy buildings you spend the game unlocking are totally meaningless.
 

DalekFlay

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So, Killing Stag Lord was challenging but fun, followed the Troll quest-chain which was quite amazing overall. Then, Season of Bloom got little bit tiresome with owlbear/manticore/wyvern spam, but by then I've managed to get a good grasp of ruleset and got through it quickly. Varnhold/Vordakai was a mixed bag (another spamfest, though this time is was spriggans followed by undead cyclops, but with few cool moments like having to wipe a dining hall choke-full of zombies). Armag's Tomb was really boring, basically just traps and skeletons, then more traps and skeletons, followed by even more traps and skeletons. At least the dungeon's boss went down quickly and easily thanks to the amazing power of Grease spell, so there was that. Tho' I had to reload once, because at my first attempt he won the initiative roll, charged at my main char, 1-shotted him with a crit and it was game over before I could even do a thing.

I agree the game is way too long for its own good, and I agree kingdom management becomes a tedious bore. However on this front I have to ask: do you think using the turn-based mod is having a negative impact here? The game's designed around RtwP, which means it expects quicker encounters. If you make everything a turn-based affair, it drags out every encounter. Though if you're turning it off in most cases, then I guess that's not the issue. Anyway... the game has lots of little issues, but I wouldn't say trash mobs is one of them, personally. No more than in any other game of this type, anyway.
 

trais

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If you play a Neutral MC you can negotiate peace at Old Sycamore, get a big chunk of EXP, and not have to fight them at all. Many such cases.
Which is kinda silly I believe, because IIRC both eg. CN and NG MC qualify for being able to stay away from the conflict, while CG cannot. I'm not a pathfinder expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I don't think that's how alignements should work. But that's just a nitpick, it doesn't bother me that much. Like I said, Stag Lord and Troll invasion parts of the game are perfectly fine, problems start later.

As for Owlbears and Cyclopes, it doesn't feel like hordes if you're learning a new class while fighting them/finding the right class to own them, which is why I think they're there. I've finally gotten to the point where I design different companions for different chapters (since you have so many pretty sure that was the intention), and it both keeps things fresh (as in new) and fresh in that the battles are far less grueling with skills optimized for the opponents I'm facing. There are also at least three viable builds for each companion, different ways the classes integrate with each other (the group skills/feats are the strongest ones), etc...
Yeah, but that's still doing the same shit, only in slightly different and more optimized way. Maybe it's just me, but finding the fastest way to clear a room of owlbears isn't really what I'm looking for in the RPG. I'm fine as long as I can get through encounters without reloading too much. And only time I had significant problems in my playthrough, was in a Barbarian camp near Varnhold where I had to fight 3 Defecated Sisters on top of bunch of Barbarians. And that's mainly due to my MC dying from ability score drain. So the fighting wasn't really grueling, it was just... boring. Killing your first 10 owlbears is fun, killing your 50th isn't.

And encounter design was really lacking after the early game. It's still pretty fresh in my memory, so I'm pretty sure Armag's Tomb had, aside from boss and miniboss, like 7 enemy types in total: melee skeletons, slightly stronger melee skeletons, skeleton archers, clerics of Gorum, spectres, one iron golem and an elemental or two in some of the hidden rooms. I wouldn't mind it, if it was small map like Stag Lord's fort, but that was two level dungeon with third level dedicated the boss.

If you're still playing save or die Grease at lvl 14 you're kind of missing the point of the game, which is fine - the strength of the game is how much you miss the first time through and figure out later with the enjoyable Aha! that comes with that - but doesn't put one in the best position (yet) to say (with authority) whether a game sucks or not.
Maybe it was my fault for not fully healing my party, or for playing with TB mod, but I don't think I did anything wrong in the fight where enemy just charged my MC in killed him outright with a single 100+ dmg crit without me literally being able to do anything, as it wasn't any of my dudes turn yet. If it was any other char I would just raise dead him/her afterwards, but ya know, it's game over when MC kicks the bucket. But I wasn't even angry, I just laughed at my bad luck, reloaded and finished the fight successfully on the next try.


I know it's a common complaint, but I seriously believe that difficulty is not a problem in this game. Especially that you can adjust it to your skill and how experienced your are with the ruleset. Kudos to devs for that. Like I said earlier, problem lies not with encounters, but with encounter design.
 

NJClaw

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Maybe it was my fault for not fully healing my party, or for playing with TB mod, but I don't think I did anything wrong in the fight where enemy just charged my MC in killed him outright with a single 100+ dmg crit without me literally being able to do anything, as it wasn't any of my dudes turn yet. If it was any other char I would just raise dead him/her afterwards, but ya know, it's game over when MC kicks the bucket. But I wasn't even angry, I just laughed at my bad luck, reloaded and finished the fight successfully on the next try.
If you are talking about the Armag fight, I experienced the exact same thing in my first playthrough (in RTwP). Once you know that that can happen, it's quite easy to avoid, but the first time it can be a bit of a shock.

The repetitiveness of the encounters clearly is a big flaw, but how much this actually impacts the fun you can have with the game really depends on how much you enjoy the system. To me, Pathfinder combat is so much fun that I would still keep playing the game even if every enemy from chapter 1 to 8 was an enraged owlbear.
 

trais

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I agree the game is way too long for its own good, and I agree kingdom management becomes a tedious bore. However on this front I have to ask: do you think using the turn-based mod is having a negative impact here? The game's designed around RtwP, which means it expects quicker encounters. If you make everything a turn-based affair, it drags out every encounter. Though if you're turning it off in most cases, then I guess that's not the issue. Anyway... the game has lots of little issues, but I wouldn't say trash mobs is one of them, personally. No more than in any other game of this type, anyway.

It might, but then I rolled magus as my MC, and babysitting him to perform his spellcombat correctly in real time was hair-pullingly annoying. Not to mention that I prefer TB combat over RTwP, so I feel that in overall TB-mod actually added to my experience, rather than detracted from it.
 

Desiderius

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Much obliged for measured, reasonable response.*

Yeah, but that's still doing the same shit, only in slightly different and more optimized way. Maybe it's just me, but finding the fastest way to clear a room of owlbears isn't really what I'm looking for in the RPG. I'm fine as long as I can get through encounters without reloading too much.

No, it's not slight at all. First there's the difference between having to reload repeatedly and having a plan that is manageable, then there's the difference between having a manageable plan and dominance. If you only get to the former then those fights will wear you down, but there is a great sense of satisfaction in getting to the latter at which point the sense of mastery achieved is a true joy. If you're locked into tank and spank or save or die, you'll never get to the latter, which seems to be where a lot of people frustrated with the game get stuck.

And encounter design was really lacking after the early game. It's still pretty fresh in my memory, so I'm pretty sure Armag's Tomb had, aside from boss and miniboss, like 7 enemy types in total: melee skeletons, slightly stronger melee skeletons, skeleton archers, clerics of Gorum, spectres, one iron golem and an elemental or two in some of the hidden rooms. I wouldn't mind it, if it was small map like Stag Lord's fort, but that was two level dungeon with third level dedicated the boss.

I wasn't thrilled with it, but you did miss the Devourer who is a significant step up from anything else. The Tomb also features significant rewards for people who have learned how to get the most out of their skills (like Perception), which is one of my favorite features in the game. The falloff in difficulty after Vordokai/Abandoned Keep (including the Armag fight itself) is a weakness of the game.

it wasn't any of my dudes turn yet.

That's what Initiative is for. My average Initiative roll by that time is in the thirties. Once you get a feel for the game you'll find that luck plays little if any role and there is an answer for literally everything, and usually several.

problem lies not with encounters, but with encounter design.

Completely agree, but you've also only scratched the surface of what's already there.

* - nobody is more sensitive to the plight of the developmentally laidback than I am, Dork Canoli, ImplodingAnus, and young master Dalek, but it's only fair for the intelligent to have some games for us too.
 

trais

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No, it's not slight at all. First there's the difference between having to reload repeatedly and having a plan that is manageable, then there's the difference between having a manageable plan and dominance. If you only get to the former then those fights will wear you down, but there is a great sense of satisfaction in getting to the latter at which point the sense of mastery achieved is a true joy. If you're locked into tank and spank or save or die, you'll never get to the latter, which seems to be where a lot of people frustrated with the game get stuck.
To each his own, but I don't find "dominating" singleplayer games really that satisfying. I'll be more than happy to humbly step aside and leave that most prestigious of occupations to the true masters.

I wasn't thrilled with it, but you did miss the Devourer who is a significant step up from anything else. The Tomb also features significant rewards for people who have learned how to get the most out of their skills (like Perception), which is one of my favorite features in the game. The falloff in difficulty after Vordokai/Abandoned Keep (including the Armag fight itself) is a weakness of the game.

Shame, because I did have Harrim in my party, who had almost, if not actually, max ranks in perception, 20+WIS and that artisan shield (Bulwark?) that gives +5 to perception on top of that. And Ekun, who also had close to +20 Perception himself. Plus my most of my party companions have mid to high perception rank-wise themselves, mostly because you have to put those skill points somewhere, and there isn't any point in doubling the Lore (Nature) duty, is there?

But I guess if dice hate you, you gonna roll 1 no matter what. But thanks for the info, I should have a hard save somewhere right before that Tomb, might revisit it someday just for that encounter.

That's what Initiative is for. My average Initiative roll by that time is in the thirties. Once you get a feel for the game you'll find that luck plays little if any role and there is an answer for literally everything, and usually several.

If enemy rolled high and you rolled low, then it doesn't matter what your general average is. Playing TB mod, I learned very quickly that initiative is very important and adopted my build accordingly, but sometimes Lady Luck just takes a dump on you. That's simply a part of the game and that's why you carry a bunch of Raise Dead scrolls with you. Unfortunately this game doesn't allow to res MC, so you have to reload.
 

Desiderius

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To each his own, but I don't find "dominating" singleplayer games really that satisfying. I'll be more than happy to humbly step aside and leave that most prestigious of occupations to the true masters.

Whatever, dude, you're completely mistaking my tone. You're well ahead of where I was in my first playthrough, and putting 2,000 hrs into a game is nothing to be proud of (or not proud of, it's a hobby), I'm describing a feeling/mental state not marking territory.

Shame, because I did have Harrim in my party, who had almost, if not actually, max ranks in perception, 20+WIS and that artisan shield (Bulwark?) that gives +5 to perception on top of that. And Ekun, who also had close to +20 Perception himself. Plus my most of my party companions have mid to high perception rank-wise themselves, mostly because you have to put those skill points somewhere, and there isn't any point in doubling the Lore (Nature) duty, is there?

Yes, for finding the weaknesses of mobs to get to the dominance previously mentioned. Everybody gets a check on those. And no, you can't critically miss a skill check (unlike a save or attack) so getting one toon super high (using the Trapfinding ability on Rogue/Slayer for instance, or Jaethal also gets free Perception per level) does pay off. IIRC that check was maybe 42? There's a 50 Intimidate Check in there too that you can autopass if you're really good.

If enemy rolled high and you rolled low, then it doesn't matter what your general average is. Playing TB mod, I learned very quickly that initiative is very important and adopted my build accordingly, but sometimes Lady Luck just takes a dump on you. That's simply a part of the game and that's why you carry a bunch of Raise Dead scrolls with you. Unfortunately this game doesn't allow to res MC, so you have to reload.

No, like NJClaw said, there are several ways to approach the fight where you'd never have to reload. That's what I mean by dominance and figuring those things out is what makes great games fun.
 

trais

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No, like NJClaw said, there are several ways to approach the fight where you'd never have to reload. That's what I mean by dominance and figuring those things out is what makes great games fun.
Well, you are right. No sarcasm. In hindsight I see that I could have predicted that this will be the "boss" room instead of yet another "2 skeleton berserekrs, 2 skeleton archers 1 cleric of Gorum room" and pre-buffed myself with invisibility or displacement+mirror image and then I would probably survive that fight. Or maybe I could have scouted ahead, haven't tried that either. Instead I stumbled blindly in there, watched a short cutscene, then died at the very start of the combat, before being able to react. Nevertheless, I'm fine with filing that under "shit happens" rather than "mistakes were made". For a very simple reason: that whole dungeon bored me to a point, where I just wanted to get this over with, didn't have patience for slow and methodical anymore. Overall, I think it saved me more time in the long run, so I consider that a "win".
 

DalekFlay

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It's definitely annoying when you get a random super high crit on your main character and wipe instantly. To be fair crits are toned down a lot on normal difficulty, so only masochists like us really experience that.
 

Desiderius

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No, like NJClaw said, there are several ways to approach the fight where you'd never have to reload. That's what I mean by dominance and figuring those things out is what makes great games fun.
Well, you are right. No sarcasm. In hindsight I see that I could have predicted that this will be the "boss" room instead of yet another "2 skeleton berserekrs, 2 skeleton archers 1 cleric of Gorum room" and pre-buffed myself with invisibility or displacement+mirror image and then I would probably survive that fight. Or maybe I could have scouted ahead, haven't tried that either. Instead I stumbled blindly in there, watched a short cutscene, then died at the very start of the combat, before being able to react. Nevertheless, I'm fine with filing that under "shit happens" rather than "mistakes were made". For a very simple reason: that whole dungeon bored me to a point, where I just wanted to get this over with, didn't have patience for slow and methodical anymore. Overall, I think it saved me more time in the long run, so I consider that a "win".

I don't know what you're trying to prove. Mirror Image is min/lvl, so yeah, you should have it up at all times by midgame with an extend rod. That was something I was doing in my first playthrough. One of the main reasons to play as Magus in the first place. Has nothing to do with slow and methodical.

A lot of us enjoy playing games like this quasi-ironman (minimal reload) as it adds suspense and challenge, and there are more than enough tools in P:K to do so without having to worry about RNG. But yes, it's the nature of playing a game because it's so replayable that when one is replaying it one is less often surprised.
 

trais

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Yeah, I know, it's just those earlier skeletons weren't really able to hit either my magus or Valerie, so I kinda forgot about reapplying buffs as I didn't need them. But like I said, that death to Armag haven't really bothered me, nor I see it as game's fault in any way.

It wasn't the first time I died to unlucky crit in the RPG and won't be the last time, that's for sure. Neither was I playing ironman or semi-ironman, so I didn't care about reloads. I just brought it up because I found it funny that on one hand same encounter is an insta-game over and on the other you can beat it without main threat being able to touch you, all depending on a dice roll or two. Not a fault of PF:K, just the nature of D20. I would even call it a feature, as knowing or correctly deducing/guessing which type of saving throw to target is something I enjoy in those type of systems.


Also, this anecdote kinda proves in my opinion that all the people who complain about game being too hard are just stubbornly trying to force a square peg into round hole, instead of looking for easier options.
 

DalekFlay

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Also, this anecdote kinda proves in my opinion that all the people who complain about game being too hard are just stubbornly trying to force a square peg into round hole, instead of looking for easier options.

Yeah, "challenging" for me has been overall pretty easy. The difficulty has always come from not being properly prepared for something, but then once you reload and do a different strat it's easy. The toughest thing I ever did in the game was the ending of The Bloom quest without any poison resistance and few restoration scrolls, but that was a handicap I gave myself and didn't bother fixing basically. When you read the complaints on the internet about paralyzing, stat drops, etc. it's obvious people didn't cast the right spells or bring the right characters. To be fair to them, most games never require this on typical difficulties. They have no experience with that kind of attention requirement.

Some people hate the "find out what to do and reload" design on its own merits though, which I respect.
 

Desiderius

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I get that the "it all comes down to a dice roll" is just making conversation, but understand that a significant chunk of the enjoyment of the game consists of finding all the ways to take the dice out of it completely. What felt like a slog my first couple times now feels like a breeze in large part due to that process, and getting to that point was fun and rewarding.
 

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I just finished the game. 150+ hours, "challenging" difficulty for 99.9% of it. I went from loving the game at 50 hours to thinking it was pretty good at 100 hours to wishing the pain would end at 150 hours, and so it made me think I should check the OP's list again. Looking at it though, a lot of this is still retarded. High level items in barrels? Welcome to RPGs. No farming random spawns for XP? What is this, Final Fantasy? Encumbrance is bad? Once I got a bag of holding I was never encumbered again. Choices have consequences? Oh no, heaven forbid! However, while I think most of these are silly there are a few that touch on the heart of what I grew to dislike...

Kingdom management is a tedious and joyless experience. The option to play with it disabled doesn't work. There are many cases where you can lose the game by "misplaying" this mechanic, without explanation.

Patches have made the dangers to your kingdom more obvious, but everything else is spot-on. I'm sure some people liked it, but for me it was a constant pain in the butt time waste that would never end. As I got further and further in the game it just kept getting more and more tedious. When I played recent Bioware games the "management" stuff at the home base was pointless and tedious as well, and Owlcat took that idea and made it take up even MORE time and MORE attention. Even on "effortless" it requires constant attention, which is the opposite of no effort. If I ever replay it I'll try auto, but everything I read said that was a broken experience. If it was removed entirely it would do nothing but improve the game.


Failure to resolve quests before deadlines results in losing the game.

The deadlines are no big deal, and easily dealt with. Do the main quest first for the most part, with minor side trips, and you'll be a-okay no problemo. However the problem with the timers is it makes the game feel linear and railroaded. Want to do X? In the mood for some exploring of Y? Well too bad, because if you don't do the quest we told you to do then it's game over! Some people like this too. I have seen responses like "well if you had a barbarian army prepared to destroy your kingdom, wouldn't you rush to it?" Problem is it's not real life, you autistic fuck. There's a reason 99.9% of RPGs don't do this, and it's called gameplay. It is more fun when playing an RPG video game to choose what quest to do and when, and it breaks up the monotony of doing similar things for too long. There's a moment in Kingmaker where you do this super long quest with an undead cyclops, and of course you mainlined it and did it all in one go because of the timer. Then the game immediately launches you into the next main quest, with no break, and you have to prioritize that because of the timer. Later on in the game you'll have long stretches where you have nothing to do but kingdom management, because you're just waiting for a timer. It removes a lot of the freedom and diversity you normally have when playing an RPG, and this is why I think most people dislike it. The "learn how it works" or "muh realism!' defenses don't apply.


Maps are reused 4-5 times in places.

This is annoying and reminded me of Dragon Age 2, but I think the real problem goes deeper. The game is entirely too fucking long, and doesn't justify its length. Not only are there plenty of repeating areas, but most areas in general are very similar to one another. There's a shit-ton of wilderness, a shit-ton of similar dungeons, and a shit-ton of first world neon plants, and not much else. Most areas are small, with interesting and bigger ones like the swamp witch village or dilapidated dwarf road being way too rare. This probably wouldn't irritate me much if the game weren't 150 fucking hours long. Half the game could easily have been removed and no one would have complained about length. The joy early on of finding new areas on the map and going there for a few quick battles and loot quickly becomes tedium later on when you repeat the same areas for the same shit without anything new or different. The joy of killing the bandit king and stopping a troll army turns into tedium when you're doing the same types of battles in the same types of places 100 hours later. Add on the tedious kingdom management above and the last third of your playthrough turns into a slog you can't wait to end.

In summary, the first 50-70 hours of Pathfinder: Kingmaker is up there with the best of the CRPG "renaissance" I've played. Even that section isn't my favorite because it's a very mechanics driven game and I am not a super mechanics driven guy. I like to think of myself as a mix of combat tactics and storyfag archetypes. However I still loved it and would give that 50 hours or so a 9 out of 10, with the timer and kingdom management being the small flaws. However the last 50 or so hours of the game I barely enjoyed at all, despite taking several breaks. It just goes on too long, is too repetitive, and becomes even more railroaded and tedious. I'd give this half a 5 out of 10 or less. Mix it together and you get a strong 7ish out of 10 enjoyable RPG, but if I ever play it again I'll kill Vodrakai or maybe Armag and then quit.
 

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Also, this anecdote kinda proves in my opinion that all the people who complain about game being too hard are just stubbornly trying to force a square peg into round hole, instead of looking for easier options.
Except people who complain about difficulty do not play it with the mod that pause a game for them after every tiniest action in the combat.
 

Desiderius

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Also, this anecdote kinda proves in my opinion that all the people who complain about game being too hard are just stubbornly trying to force a square peg into round hole, instead of looking for easier options.
Except people who complain about difficulty do not play it with the mod that pause a game for them after every tiniest action in the combat.

The game comes with a ton of autopause sets, or you can use the v key which advances things more or less frame by frame.

No mod needed unles you're just used to TB and prefer that.
 

trais

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Also, this anecdote kinda proves in my opinion that all the people who complain about game being too hard are just stubbornly trying to force a square peg into round hole, instead of looking for easier options.
Except people who complain about difficulty do not play it with the mod that pause a game for them after every tiniest action in the combat.

The game comes with a ton of autopause sets, or you can use the v key which advances things more or less frame by frame.

No mod needed unles you're just used to TB and prefer that.

There's no reason not to try TB mod though. You can turn it on/off on the fly, so speed-garbage-disposal is always an option.

And if you want an experience that is a bit closer to TT it does have full-round/standard/move/swift actions properly implemented, as well 5ft step, so necessities are there. And it's pretty bug-free, only times it derps out is with the stuff that's directly inherited from game's engine, like e.g. pathfinding :lol:
 

Daidre

Arcane
Joined
Jan 30, 2019
Messages
2,003
Location
Samara
Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture
Also, this anecdote kinda proves in my opinion that all the people who complain about game being too hard are just stubbornly trying to force a square peg into round hole, instead of looking for easier options.
Except people who complain about difficulty do not play it with the mod that pause a game for them after every tiniest action in the combat.

The game comes with a ton of autopause sets, or you can use the v key which advances things more or less frame by frame.

No mod needed unles you're just used to TB and prefer that.

There's no reason not to try TB mod though. You can turn it on/off on the fly, so speed-garbage-disposal is always an option.

And if you want an experience that is a bit closer to TT it does have full-round/standard/move/swift actions properly implemented, as well 5ft step, so necessities are there. And it's pretty bug-free, only times it derps out is with the stuff that's directly inherited from game's engine, like e.g. pathfinding :lol:

I enjoy playing the game as it is. When I am in the mood for 5ft fetishism, I'd rather play KotC that has a proper grid and AI that is smart enough not to turn whole TB exercise into one-sided snore-fest.
 
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DalekFlay

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Messages
14,118
Location
New Vegas
I much prefer turn-based, but there's enough turn-based stuff now that it's good to have variety.
 

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