Why so many TB RPG's have ultra slow animations and braindead AI?

[JarlFrank]

Apart from that I can't at the moment think of any CRPGs with decent AI.

Play KotC2

 

[Cryomancer]

Apart from that I can't at the moment think of any CRPGs with decent AI.

Play KotC2

KotC1 also has good AI.

 

[Serus]

Apart from that I can't at the moment think of any CRPGs with decent AI.

Play KotC2

KotC1 also has good AI.

I agree that both KotCs are good in that regard, however at least part of the perceived competence of AI in those games comes from very well designed encounters not the AI itself.
Battle Brothers is not terrible as far as computer TB games' AIs go. At least comparatively to most other games.

The issue is not making an AI equal to a human but one able to do basic stuffs. Stuff like being able asses the strength of a unit and attack the weaker/most dangerous one. Being able to place melee troops between enemy and own ranged troops and so on. All the rest can be taken care with relative strength of player forces vs computer forces or encounter design. Many/most games don't even achieve that. By laziness or on purpose: "Our customers are dumb and don't care about challenge. They will like the game with good graphics or part of a popular franchise". BTW, they are often correct, at least in case of mainstream high budget games.

 

[Old Hans]

This problems aren't that bad in Rt/RtWP games, but when you have 666 mobs in the screen, waiting each one of them to do the same 5 second animation or to walk into the obvious deathzone

i cant think of a single turn based game where anything close to this ever happens, except maybe wizardry 8

 

[Ol' Willy]

The problem with AI in many games is caused by the fact that AI is usually programmed using routines.

AI has a set of routines which it will execute regardless of player actions. This makes AI really primitive and once you learn these routines, you can easily exploit them.

Instead, AI should be programmed to be reactive to player actions. While still having some basic routines, AI should "understand" its surroundings and player actions and react to them accordingly.

For example, let's say you have a party of ranged characters. AI has melee chars and tries to attack through open space, getting massacred. Routine based AI will just keep rushing and dying. Reactive AI will "understand" that its actions bring no success while taking losses, and thus, will react. Either it will try to neutralize your ranged attacks or will look for another venue of offensive.

Suffice to say that I have seen just a mere handful of games where AI understands what the line of sight is, and this is one of the most basic concepts.

 

[octavius]

Orcs in Wizard's Crown are smarter and more resourceful than the whole Mulmaster Beholder Corps in Curse of the Azure Bonds. Exploiting the non-existent AI I managed to defeat the Corps without even using the Dust of Disappearance. While in WC I tried to barricade my party in a room, but the Orcs didn't take the bait, but instead had their archers find the optimal LOS and shoot into the room.
What kind of topsy turvy world are we living in where Orcs outsmart Beholders and Drow?!?

 

[Butter]

This problems aren't that bad in Rt/RtWP games, but when you have 666 mobs in the screen, waiting each one of them to do the same 5 second animation or to walk into the obvious deathzone

i cant think of a single turn based game where anything close to this ever happens, except maybe wizardry 8

Pool of Radiance has several notoriously and obnoxiously long encounters because it's dozens and dozens of basic enemies who all have to take their turns and you don't have Fireball yet. The Sokol Keep encounter makes the average Wizardry 8 encounter feel brisk.

 

[Old Hans]

This problems aren't that bad in Rt/RtWP games, but when you have 666 mobs in the screen, waiting each one of them to do the same 5 second animation or to walk into the obvious deathzone

i cant think of a single turn based game where anything close to this ever happens, except maybe wizardry 8

Pool of Radiance has several notoriously and obnoxiously long encounters because it's dozens and dozens of basic enemies who all have to take their turns and you don't have Fireball yet. The Sokol Keep encounter makes the average Wizardry 8 encounter feel brisk.

thats true but I wasnt really thinking that far back in history. on a related note I once discovered a trick to reducing the size of the random encounter groups was to have a less than max group size

 

[Cryomancer]

I was playing Rogue Empire, thinking that ranged minions are worthless due their brainded AI and saw this options on leveling up

Evolved intelligence is a must have. It makes ranged minions like skeleton archer and wraiths to not be in front line dying and make them useful for a necromancer.

AI in those games comes from very well designed encounters not the AI itself.

Well, in a part of kotc1, I casted fire wall to damage enemy undead, one of the skeletons moved my cleric to my own fire wall, knocked her down and pinned her into the ground. I never saw any other CRPG where enemies do something similar.

 

[Nortar]

AI should "understand" its surroundings and player actions and react to them accordingly.

This reminds me of an encounter I had in Naheubleuk.

One of the characters, the Ogre, has a charge attack - he takes a running start and body-smashes at his target for massive damage.
But this attack takes full round to prepare and triggers on the Ogre's next turn.

So most of the time the target can just move away.
Or the Ogre could be stunned or even killed.

But that one time I caught my target in perfect immobilized position,
and not enough enemies could reach my ogre in time to disable him, so the devastating charge was imminent.

But all the mobs who could not get to the ogre, lined up along his charge path instead.
And when the Ogre charged past them, each had hit him with an opportunity attack.
The bastards managed to kill my Ogre before he got to the finish line.

I thougth that was pretty clever plan for AI.

 

[Ladonna]

Orcs in Wizard's Crown are smarter and more resourceful than the whole Mulmaster Beholder Corps in Curse of the Azure Bonds. Exploiting the non-existent AI I managed to defeat the Corps without even using the Dust of Disappearance. While in WC I tried to barricade my party in a room, but the Orcs didn't take the bait, but instead had their archers find the optimal LOS and shoot into the room.
What kind of topsy turvy world are we living in where Orcs outsmart Beholders and Drow?!?

Have you played Natuk? Some real pita's in that game.

 

[thesecret1]

when you have 666 mobs in the screen, waiting each one of them to do the same 5 second animation

You are supposed to stare in awe at the beautiful animations, shockingly smooth and pretty even after the 100th time!

 

[InD_ImaginE]

KotC AI is good because Pierre is omega autist that's willing to write a bunch of conditional IF statement that 90% not going to see any use. It's a project of passion and it shows

Game studios be it AA or AAA are bunch of waggies who can't be arsed with that. So the easy solution is just to crack the number up against the player or compensate the dumb AI with the fact that AI "factions" in a game feels no attrition unlike the player. This then compound to the "resting problem" where if the player is not limited in rest (e.g. DnD/PF) or resource, no matter how unfair the game is then it will be a nothing burger.

 

[Serus]

AI in those games comes from very well designed encounters not the AI itself.

Well, in a part of kotc1, I casted fire wall to damage enemy undead, one of the skeletons moved my cleric to my own fire wall, knocked her down and pinned her into the ground. I never saw any other CRPG where enemies do something similar.

First, thank you for misquoting. This takes some skill to do in the circumstances. For the record, i said:

"I agree that both KotCs are good in that regard(=AI), however at least part of the perceived competence of AI in those games comes from very well designed encounters not the AI itself"

I agree that KotC AI is very good - comparatively. But that's because it does the "basic" stuff, i mentioned before, very well. Stuff that 90% of games don't do at all and most of the rest only do it only half-assed. This case you mentioned, the games check if a permanent damage source is present near by and act on this accordingly to its skills. That's great, I love it and Pierre is one of the very few people who is able and wants to do it. But that behaviour of AI is only a very short-term tactic. Even in KoTCs, I don't believe that the AI can plan ahead more than 1 turns in advance. Which is 1 turn more than usual of curse. Or coordinate well many enemies at once. Or make a general strategy for the whole battle in case of bigger encounters. This is where encounter design comes in. Most encounters are in small spaces, and in the big ones you can see that enemies act "smart" individually but without a coherent strategy as a whole. In a hand made encounter the enemies are placed in the right place to act and Pierre can even test their behaviour in first turn or two of an encounter and make corrections. All this is not possible in a random encounter. This is why KotCs' AI looks even better than it is. "Better than it is" != poorly done. In fact it is one of the best CRPG if not best in that regard. It's just that Pierre doesn't have much competition to be honest. Imagine if most TB crpgs had a Pierre or another Jacques making the AI. One can dream.

 

[anvi]

Use Speed Hack see my sig.