Decline WRPGs have hit rock bottom

[JarlFrank]

OpenMW isn't picked up by Steam as Morrowind, probably why.

Yes, but lets be real. Morrowind filter more normies. If Morrowind had quest compass and other Oblivion stuff and Oblivion din't had, Morrowind would be more played.

The number one filter for mediocre minds is always the presence of navigation challenge.

"Challenge" is a bit of a stretch. NPCs give you directions in excruciating detail and it's added to your journal.

People totally exaggerate the significance of the lack of quest markers/compass in Morrowind. It's a cool feature for immersion purposes but that's basically the extent of the difference from a gameplay perspective.

It's hugely significant, actually. Reading directions and following them requires paying attention to what is said, and looking at actual features of the landscape.
You have to read the NPC dialog, remember it (or keep checking your journal for the instructions), and keep your eyes open as you walk along the road.
"Follow the road until you reach the bridge across Foyada Mamea. Take a left turn towards the mountains. Near the big tree, you will find the entrance to the ancestral tomb I want you to steal an item from."
This makes you actually engage with the environment instead of staring at a fucking marker and just following the compass on autopilot.

Modern gamers have completely lost their navigational skills thanks to almost 20 years of quest compass brainwashing.
There's an indie Morrowind clone whose demo didn't have any markers whatsoever. They were forced to include markers as an optional feature (you can disable them in the menu) because so many people who played the demo were lost and claimed that the game didn't give them any directions.

The demo starts in a cave, little intro dungeon that shows you the ropes. Once you get out of the cave the game suggests to visit Garkai, the nearest city.
There were no markers showing the way, but there was a little footpath and a sign that says "Garkai" when you hold your crosshair on it. Can't be more obvious, can you? Obviously, a road will lead somewhere. And when there's a roadsign telling you where it leads, you just have to follow it.
But people went off into the wilderness instead and acted confused when it didn't lead them anywhere and they had no compass markers to show nearby points of interest. They were so conditioned by markers that even following a FUCKING ROAD was too much for them.

Worse, when they did reach the city and talk to NPCs to get quests, they claimed the quests had no instructions.
There's an extensive journal system that tells you exactly what to do. But you have to open your journal and read it.
Also, NPCs give you directions like in Morrowind. The relevant place names are even highlighted in a different color to draw your eyes to them.
Despite that, a lot of players still claimed the game didn't give them any direction.

Because modern players had their brains utterly destroyed by quest markers. They don't know what to do if there's no marker to follow.
Not having these shitty markers in your game is a HUGE improvement in gameplay, and a MASSIVE filter for casuals.

 

[Ash]

People like you earn the Codex its monocle

It's far, far more than just immersion. It is its own sub-category of gameplay itself, often overlooked (e.g platforming, puzzles, combat, navigation blah blah blah). There are even entire games exclusively dedicated to it e.g in the real world is orienteering or hedge mazes, and it used to be a staple in gaming (in certain genres anyway), all but eradicated now. Sadly, there were few gameplayfags to hold the fort. The rest of the "gamers" busy jerking off graphics, stories and "games as art" while half the entire artistic merit of video games (gameplay - interactive art) was being abandoned to cater to retards.

You want art? Navigation challenge? A cerebral experience? In this day and age? Play Darkwood, but it isn't for retards. A rare modern gem that shows why video games are the best form of art and entertainment this species will ever produce.

They were so conditioned by markers that even following a FUCKING ROAD was too much for them.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Yeah, it's hard to even explain to modern gamers how much they have lost due to this map marker, quest compass bullshit. Combine it with the way modern games make quests completely brainless follow the exact quest instructions affairs:

1. Talk to NPC Cocksmoker Jones, and ask him about the legendary grail of cocksucking. (NPC shown by quest compass)
2. Cocksmoker Jones tells you something but it's completely irrelevant to read because the quest journal will then tell you to go to NPC Bye Felicia McGee (shown by quest compass), and kill her ass.
3. Take the Tampon +3 dropped by Bye Felicia in step 2, and bring it to NPC Pudendum McFuckface (shown by quest compass)
4. Collect quest reward, Glorious Toupee of Undead Turning from Guild Leader Sanchez (show by quest compass).

Not a single brain cell synapse was fired during this whole process. Now if you've ever played some of the old time legends such as Ultima Underworld, Arx Fatalis, Betrayal at Krondor, Dark Sun: Shattered Lands, Anachronox, or Fallout, you will recall how in those games, instructions were really high level affairs, giving you some high level goal, and it was up to you to fucking figure out what to actually do.

So you combine the active thinking approach to solving quests with the active approach of navigating the world, talking to NPCs, and figuring general shit out, and you have a game that's akin to an actual adventure. You are adventuring, you are doing shit, the pleasure centers of your monkey brain are constantly firing because light bulbs are going off and you are solving shit like a fucking McGuyver on crack, this is what the fun of games is all about.

Meanwhile, in modern games, you are a fucking UPS guy, following your GPS to go to some place and collect some shit without having the least bit of input into it. It's fucking disgusting.

 

[Butter]

Meanwhile, in modern games, you are a fucking UPS guy, following your GPS to go to some place and collect some shit without having the least bit of input into it. It's fucking disgusting.

And these games are much more popular. Really gives a horrifying glimpse into the mind of the average bugman.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Yeah, it's hard to even explain to modern gamers how much they have lost due to this map marker, quest compass bullshit.

I get this same feeling when trying to explain to people why allowing savescumming and removing random encounters is a problem. There's a whole resource management, risk/reward and attrition aspect to RPGs that's basically been gone for over 30 years and any time someone tries to bring it back you get a bunch of people whining about convenience.

Fast travel is another, more recent example.

"Streamlined" indeed.

 

[Ash]

Yeah, it's hard to even explain to modern gamers how much they have lost due to this map marker, quest compass bullshit.

I get this same feeling when trying to explain to people why allowing savescumming and removing random encounters is a problem. There's a whole resource management, risk/reward and attrition aspect to RPGs that's basically been gone for over 30 years and any time someone tries to bring it back you get a bunch of people whining about convenience.

That's not just RPGs lol, that's almost all game design and genres across the board that are heavily affected. What's worse is the "convenience" aspect was solved decades ago by multiple means (e.g temp saves). But let's not go there, please. Gamers can't handle the truth.

The good news is, there is a lot of modern games seeing the light. Action Roguelites are more popular than ever, as well as old genres still going relatively strong that always offered ironmans (turn-based tactics - nu XCOM, nu Jagged Alliance, Battle Brothers etc), then in general lots of miscellaneous indies have game design sense to make the right decision and restrict that shit in some form.

The main conundrum, though far from the only, that makes unrestricted saving the antithesis of game design is the fact the player does not know the game, they don't know what challenges are to come (e.g a boss fight, which is always a difficulty spike by design), so how in the actual fuck can they appropriately determine save frequency that is fair and balanced? Impossible, not in any intelligent and optimized manner anyway. Only a designer can do that. If you don't, you're not a true master of your craft as far as I am concerned. Yes, this would even extend to my most beloved classic PC devs.

 

[JarlFrank]

Action Roguelites

Not an incline genre at all. Permadeath is more of an obstacle to proper game design than a benefit, as it forces the game to consist of short sessions rather than a larger continuous world.
Also, procedural generation will NEVER be even half as good as well-designed hand-made levels. When it comes to exploration, the flood of proc gen games nowadays is a plague. Current gen indie devs have forgotten how to design levels because of how much they over-rely on procedural generation.

 

[Ash]

I used to think the exact same way as you. I was wrong.

Permadeath - yes, but it depends. Is the game short? Permadeath works fine. Like tetris lol. Is the game long? Then it must leave room for error. XCOM2 for example does this by still letting you turn your game around if a squad gets wiped (what would be a game over in any other game, but not here). The odds are stacked against you, but it is possible.

Proc gen - there is an art and craft to it that has evolved a LOT these days. Once again I thought exactly the same as you, seeing all those terrible indies in the early 2010s with garbage level gen, but great level design can be achieved, especially since what proc gen has evolved into these days is lovingly handcrafted "chunks" of level design that are merely shuffled like lego blocks for a different orientation. Now don't get me wrong, handcrafted will always be best for absolute optimization of the player experience, but proc gen's upside is that it lets you replay content (e.g after you die) that is totally different than the last time you played, so it is a fresh experience and furthermore old tricks wont work (e.g enemy placement is shuffled, so you can't bounce grenades around corners where you know they will be like in Quake).

Lose a degree of optimal hand-crafted control and nuance, gain massive replayability and dynamic level design. It is for sure an incline genre (Spelunky 2 is perhaps the king of proc gen level design, me and my girl have been playing it for YEARS, never gets boring). And for perhaps the second place example of proc gen in a game that is more "mature", well that is the venerable Darkwood (it's not a roguelite though). But it helps that the ratio of handcrafted to random is like 85% handcrafted to 15% random lol. But yeah, the best proc gen is when it extensively and intelligently designed, with lots of handcrafted love put into it. Third place for proc gen level design for me goes to Everspace. It's set in the vast expanse of space, so the fact there is any level design emphasis at all is a good start, and what they did with it and the proc gen is fairly straightforward and yet so very smart and engaging.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Permadeath is more of an obstacle to proper game design than a benefit, as it forces the game to consist of short sessions rather than a larger continuous world.

Not when done properly. Good roguelike games make sudden deaths incredibly rare and generally telegraphed- if you get into melee with one of the three horsemen in Nethack or looked at Medusa, that's kinda on you. Instead, healing resources are limited, so resorting to using some kind of consumable, like a wand, scroll or potion to survive a fight, can be considered the equivalent of losing a fight. Doing that repeatedly (or failing to recognize you need to use something to begin with) will cause a death, which means fights have consequences beyond the next 5 seconds, which is all they have in games with resting between fights and trivial access to healing items.

Action roguelites tend to revolve around short sessions, but that's more a design choice to target a demographic than a drawback of the genre. You can just as easily have a longform experience like all those survival crafter games built around permadeath.

Also, plenty of these roguelikes/lites do have hand crafted levels anyways, like Risk of Rain 2, ADOM, DoomRL and plenty of others. They have their pros and cons; having nice rewards locked behind appropriate challenges is nice, as is special situations that would be unlikely to happen randomly. But on the flipside, it often means such areas are effectively pinnatas accessed with whatever item or skill trivializes it. Having a custom level with poison gas is cool until you start carrying around exactly one gasmask with you in every game from then on to trivialize that level and get the free rocket launcher it always contains.

 

[Ash]

Lastly, the particular combination of short sessions + permadeath + proc gen is what makes the RL so special. Yeah, you die a lot and go back to the start. But now the next run is very different, it is now not restarting the game. Now you are on level 2. How hard will level 2 be? If there is "meta progression", then it will be easier than if you performed shit on level 1. This is also a concept you may be unaware of - you die you lose everything except XP and unlocks, which is used to make the core mechanics continually evolve, your decisions to matter long-term not just for that particular run, and make the game feel like a long one rather than a mere short session 1980s 30 minute arcade game.

There are many different types of roguelite, those with meta progression, those without. Then there is a roguelite form for pretty much every genre of game. You name a genre or subgenre there has probably been a good quality roguelite for it, all of which are totally different games than one another. Some of my favorite modern games are RLs, some pretty great stuff there.

Side note but they also give small indie teams the power to make high quality games with great length. It just works. Please try Everspace, Synthetik, Spelunky 1/2 and more a try before you judge the almighty RL. It is one of few modern design trends I approve of. Yes, handcrafted level design is great, but consider this: most games have shit level design, what good does handcrafting do them? The best proc gen games have better level design than 85% of handcrafted games. And while level design is to me one of the absolute most important aspects of game design, a game still can be good even if it doesn't have the best level design, as long as it isn't terrible. But the thing is good RL's don't have bad level design. They have good level design. And it changes every time you play. Good stuff. Would it work in Quake, Tomb Raider and Thief to the same prestigious degree? No, absolutely not, but it's about trade off. And it is one that is worth seeing for yourself now that it has evolved into something special/there now exists many examples of good execution. I generally agree with you, you can't have a truly optimal game with a truly fleshed out world this way, but it does work wonders in other ways. Imagine if random generation gets so good that it spits out Romero-esque Quake maps on demand? That isn't going to happen, no, but in its current state it is capable of good quality, and you can see the merit in that if you're playing pistol starts and the map is different from the secrets to the ammo to the enemies and traps every time, no? Yeah yeah, you can just play endless user-made maps instead, but most games don't have the luxury of a massive mapping community.

It also depends on the game style. Two-dimensional games are a lot easier to proc gen than 3D, and with spelunky it has already been mastered (in a sense), goddamn years ago (2008) in fact. 3D is a whole other ballgame, certainly not mastered, but the context still counts. Like Everspace. Space game, a genre that often doesn't even have extensive handcrafted level design emphasis in the first place. currently my favorite example of 3D proc gen and in my opinion an absolute must-play. I call it Space Quake because the combat is so tight (it has better combat I think). The level design isn't Romero-esque, certainly not, but it WILL surprise you.

 

[Ash]

"Also, plenty of these roguelikes/lites do have hand crafted levels anyway"

Yes, also this. Some levels will be 100% handcrafted and static, traditional, for if the context demands it, or if it isn't even necessary to randomize in the first place e.g an exploration-only area, your typical town lets say, which in this case would be the village in Darkwood. 0% randomness to it. again, game isn't a roguelite but has a little crossover in that it has a minor element of proc gen as welll as a permadeath mode which I wouldn't recommend unless you're really after a challenge and have played the game many times. It's a long and hardcore game. A mix of survival horror, RPG, roguelite and more, truly unique and brilliant.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

OpenMW isn't picked up by Steam as Morrowind, probably why.

Yes, but lets be real. Morrowind filter more normies. If Morrowind had quest compass and other Oblivion stuff and Oblivion din't had, Morrowind would be more played.

The number one filter for mediocre minds is always the presence of navigation challenge.

"Challenge" is a bit of a stretch. NPCs give you directions in excruciating detail and it's added to your journal.

People totally exaggerate the significance of the lack of quest markers/compass in Morrowind. It's a cool feature for immersion purposes but that's basically the extent of the difference from a gameplay perspective.

It's hugely significant, actually. Reading directions and following them requires paying attention to what is said, and looking at actual features of the landscape.
You have to read the NPC dialog, remember it (or keep checking your journal for the instructions), and keep your eyes open as you walk along the road.
"Follow the road until you reach the bridge across Foyada Mamea. Take a left turn towards the mountains. Near the big tree, you will find the entrance to the ancestral tomb I want you to steal an item from."
This makes you actually engage with the environment instead of staring at a fucking marker and just following the compass on autopilot.

Modern gamers have completely lost their navigational skills thanks to almost 20 years of quest compass brainwashing.
There's an indie Morrowind clone whose demo didn't have any markers whatsoever. They were forced to include markers as an optional feature (you can disable them in the menu) because so many people who played the demo were lost and claimed that the game didn't give them any directions.

The demo starts in a cave, little intro dungeon that shows you the ropes. Once you get out of the cave the game suggests to visit Garkai, the nearest city.
There were no markers showing the way, but there was a little footpath and a sign that says "Garkai" when you hold your crosshair on it. Can't be more obvious, can you? Obviously, a road will lead somewhere. And when there's a roadsign telling you where it leads, you just have to follow it.
But people went off into the wilderness instead and acted confused when it didn't lead them anywhere and they had no compass markers to show nearby points of interest. They were so conditioned by markers that even following a FUCKING ROAD was too much for them.

Worse, when they did reach the city and talk to NPCs to get quests, they claimed the quests had no instructions.
There's an extensive journal system that tells you exactly what to do. But you have to open your journal and read it.
Also, NPCs give you directions like in Morrowind. The relevant place names are even highlighted in a different color to draw your eyes to them.
Despite that, a lot of players still claimed the game didn't give them any direction.

Because modern players had their brains utterly destroyed by quest markers. They don't know what to do if there's no marker to follow.
Not having these shitty markers in your game is a HUGE improvement in gameplay, and a MASSIVE filter for casuals.

Dammit, what is the name of the game?

 

[just]

OpenMW isn't picked up by Steam as Morrowind, probably why.

Yes, but lets be real. Morrowind filter more normies. If Morrowind had quest compass and other Oblivion stuff and Oblivion din't had, Morrowind would be more played.

The number one filter for mediocre minds is always the presence of navigation challenge.

"Challenge" is a bit of a stretch. NPCs give you directions in excruciating detail and it's added to your journal.

People totally exaggerate the significance of the lack of quest markers/compass in Morrowind. It's a cool feature for immersion purposes but that's basically the extent of the difference from a gameplay perspective.

It's hugely significant, actually. Reading directions and following them requires paying attention to what is said, and looking at actual features of the landscape.
You have to read the NPC dialog, remember it (or keep checking your journal for the instructions), and keep your eyes open as you walk along the road.
"Follow the road until you reach the bridge across Foyada Mamea. Take a left turn towards the mountains. Near the big tree, you will find the entrance to the ancestral tomb I want you to steal an item from."
This makes you actually engage with the environment instead of staring at a fucking marker and just following the compass on autopilot.

Modern gamers have completely lost their navigational skills thanks to almost 20 years of quest compass brainwashing.
There's an indie Morrowind clone whose demo didn't have any markers whatsoever. They were forced to include markers as an optional feature (you can disable them in the menu) because so many people who played the demo were lost and claimed that the game didn't give them any directions.

The demo starts in a cave, little intro dungeon that shows you the ropes. Once you get out of the cave the game suggests to visit Garkai, the nearest city.
There were no markers showing the way, but there was a little footpath and a sign that says "Garkai" when you hold your crosshair on it. Can't be more obvious, can you? Obviously, a road will lead somewhere. And when there's a roadsign telling you where it leads, you just have to follow it.
But people went off into the wilderness instead and acted confused when it didn't lead them anywhere and they had no compass markers to show nearby points of interest. They were so conditioned by markers that even following a FUCKING ROAD was too much for them.

Worse, when they did reach the city and talk to NPCs to get quests, they claimed the quests had no instructions.
There's an extensive journal system that tells you exactly what to do. But you have to open your journal and read it.
Also, NPCs give you directions like in Morrowind. The relevant place names are even highlighted in a different color to draw your eyes to them.
Despite that, a lot of players still claimed the game didn't give them any direction.

Because modern players had their brains utterly destroyed by quest markers. They don't know what to do if there's no marker to follow.
Not having these shitty markers in your game is a HUGE improvement in gameplay, and a MASSIVE filter for casuals.

Dammit, what is the name of the game?

assassin creed odyssey on exploration mode with hud turned off

 

[huskarls]

What the fuck are you typing, crying about questmarkers and roguelikes like its 2012. We gonna define what an RPG is next?

 

[Ash]

We did that a few weeks back already. Stay in the loop grandpa!

Not sure why we wouldn't cry about quest markers though. The situation remains the same today, it's an aspect of design sorely missed by some, and many remain completely oblivious to it so a schooling was in order.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

OpenMW isn't picked up by Steam as Morrowind, probably why.

Yes, but lets be real. Morrowind filter more normies. If Morrowind had quest compass and other Oblivion stuff and Oblivion din't had, Morrowind would be more played.

The number one filter for mediocre minds is always the presence of navigation challenge.

"Challenge" is a bit of a stretch. NPCs give you directions in excruciating detail and it's added to your journal.

People totally exaggerate the significance of the lack of quest markers/compass in Morrowind. It's a cool feature for immersion purposes but that's basically the extent of the difference from a gameplay perspective.

It's hugely significant, actually. Reading directions and following them requires paying attention to what is said, and looking at actual features of the landscape.
You have to read the NPC dialog, remember it (or keep checking your journal for the instructions), and keep your eyes open as you walk along the road.
"Follow the road until you reach the bridge across Foyada Mamea. Take a left turn towards the mountains. Near the big tree, you will find the entrance to the ancestral tomb I want you to steal an item from."
This makes you actually engage with the environment instead of staring at a fucking marker and just following the compass on autopilot.

Modern gamers have completely lost their navigational skills thanks to almost 20 years of quest compass brainwashing.
There's an indie Morrowind clone whose demo didn't have any markers whatsoever. They were forced to include markers as an optional feature (you can disable them in the menu) because so many people who played the demo were lost and claimed that the game didn't give them any directions.

The demo starts in a cave, little intro dungeon that shows you the ropes. Once you get out of the cave the game suggests to visit Garkai, the nearest city.
There were no markers showing the way, but there was a little footpath and a sign that says "Garkai" when you hold your crosshair on it. Can't be more obvious, can you? Obviously, a road will lead somewhere. And when there's a roadsign telling you where it leads, you just have to follow it.
But people went off into the wilderness instead and acted confused when it didn't lead them anywhere and they had no compass markers to show nearby points of interest. They were so conditioned by markers that even following a FUCKING ROAD was too much for them.

Worse, when they did reach the city and talk to NPCs to get quests, they claimed the quests had no instructions.
There's an extensive journal system that tells you exactly what to do. But you have to open your journal and read it.
Also, NPCs give you directions like in Morrowind. The relevant place names are even highlighted in a different color to draw your eyes to them.
Despite that, a lot of players still claimed the game didn't give them any direction.

Because modern players had their brains utterly destroyed by quest markers. They don't know what to do if there's no marker to follow.
Not having these shitty markers in your game is a HUGE improvement in gameplay, and a MASSIVE filter for casuals.

Whats the said Morrowind clone name? Is it good?

 

[JarlFrank]

OpenMW isn't picked up by Steam as Morrowind, probably why.

Yes, but lets be real. Morrowind filter more normies. If Morrowind had quest compass and other Oblivion stuff and Oblivion din't had, Morrowind would be more played.

The number one filter for mediocre minds is always the presence of navigation challenge.

"Challenge" is a bit of a stretch. NPCs give you directions in excruciating detail and it's added to your journal.

People totally exaggerate the significance of the lack of quest markers/compass in Morrowind. It's a cool feature for immersion purposes but that's basically the extent of the difference from a gameplay perspective.

It's hugely significant, actually. Reading directions and following them requires paying attention to what is said, and looking at actual features of the landscape.
You have to read the NPC dialog, remember it (or keep checking your journal for the instructions), and keep your eyes open as you walk along the road.
"Follow the road until you reach the bridge across Foyada Mamea. Take a left turn towards the mountains. Near the big tree, you will find the entrance to the ancestral tomb I want you to steal an item from."
This makes you actually engage with the environment instead of staring at a fucking marker and just following the compass on autopilot.

Modern gamers have completely lost their navigational skills thanks to almost 20 years of quest compass brainwashing.
There's an indie Morrowind clone whose demo didn't have any markers whatsoever. They were forced to include markers as an optional feature (you can disable them in the menu) because so many people who played the demo were lost and claimed that the game didn't give them any directions.

The demo starts in a cave, little intro dungeon that shows you the ropes. Once you get out of the cave the game suggests to visit Garkai, the nearest city.
There were no markers showing the way, but there was a little footpath and a sign that says "Garkai" when you hold your crosshair on it. Can't be more obvious, can you? Obviously, a road will lead somewhere. And when there's a roadsign telling you where it leads, you just have to follow it.
But people went off into the wilderness instead and acted confused when it didn't lead them anywhere and they had no compass markers to show nearby points of interest. They were so conditioned by markers that even following a FUCKING ROAD was too much for them.

Worse, when they did reach the city and talk to NPCs to get quests, they claimed the quests had no instructions.
There's an extensive journal system that tells you exactly what to do. But you have to open your journal and read it.
Also, NPCs give you directions like in Morrowind. The relevant place names are even highlighted in a different color to draw your eyes to them.
Despite that, a lot of players still claimed the game didn't give them any direction.

Because modern players had their brains utterly destroyed by quest markers. They don't know what to do if there's no marker to follow.
Not having these shitty markers in your game is a HUGE improvement in gameplay, and a MASSIVE filter for casuals.

Dammit, what is the name of the game?

 

[Damned Registrations]

'Arden Fall'? Bit on the nose, don't ya think?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

"Challenge" is a bit of a stretch. NPCs give you directions in excruciating detail and it's added to your journal.

Show me someone that didn't play Morrowind by refering to an external map and I'll show you a bold faced liar. I honestly don't care for the clairvoyant quest compass thing, but putting a dot on the in-game map wouldn't be out of the question particularly when a lot of games have the NPC tell you, "Let me mark it on your map." Hell, Fallout did this in 1997, so I don't know why Bethesda couldn't have done this in a game released 5 years later. No one ever bitches about them doing it in Fallout, so why would you think a nice dot on the in-game map in Morrowind would raise hackles?

Wut. You seriously think objective markers vs none is a matter of "immersion" and that's it?

This is why I don't like the clairvoyant compass markers that lead you right to the exact chest where the item is stored that no one has seen for centuries. That goes well beyond the "Let me mark this tomb on your map". How the Hell would I know that's the right chest if the compass didn't tell me that's the one?

Because modern players had their brains utterly destroyed by quest markers. They don't know what to do if there's no marker to follow.
Not having these shitty markers in your game is a HUGE improvement in gameplay, and a MASSIVE filter for casuals.

The way they're done in modern games is completely ass. It was a massive over-correction. You went from reading a journal entry that explains where it is, even though you have a map in the game, to a device on the HUD that tells you exactly where what you need to do is. A dot on my map is fine. I can open my map, I can see the dot, see how close I am to the dot and which direction that location is from where I am. Once I get there, it's all on me. In the vast majority of instances, the quest giver knows where the crypt or dungeon is, but there's no way that person would know what's inside there because that's why the quest giver needs you to do it. He's never been in there, he has no idea where the item or monster is, so why would you?

Also, procedural generation will NEVER be even half as good as well-designed hand-made levels.

Except in Diablo, Diablo II, Torchlight, Torchlight II, Dwarf Fortress, and so on. Admittedly, a lot more games that fuck this up, but there are games that do this well. Bethesda hasn't done procedural generation since Daggerfall, so it's not that shocking that they screwed it up with Starfield. I think a lot of the problem has to do with the tiles they use and the level of detail in those tiles that make them incompatible which results in less that can be done with them.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Show me someone that didn't play Morrowind by refering to an external map and I'll show you a bold faced liar.

Me and my friends all played it this way. No mods either. Pure, innocent console 'tards we were. Sure we missed a billion things but who cares? Game had more than enough content to keep you busy for 70+ hours exploring shit, and we could give eachother tips on how to find shit if we asked.

 

[Ash]

I honestly don't care for the clairvoyant quest compass thing, but putting a dot on the in-game map wouldn't be out of the question particularly when a lot of games have the NPC tell you, "Let me mark it on your map." Hell, Fallout did this in 1997, so I don't know why Bethesda couldn't have done this in a game released 5 years later. No one ever bitches about them doing it in Fallout, so why would you think a nice dot on the in-game map in Morrowind would raise hackles?

Even a dot on the map would be a game changer. It would still retain a good chunk of genuine navigation gameplay, but as-is you really have to pay attention and orienteer to reliably and consistently find locations. The thing is, if they did that, most that appreciate navigation gameplay would still be happy. The main thing is that it isn't braindead. That's what GPS quest markers are, and no game had them in the past and were all better for it. Why do we need them now except to sellout and curse society with lower mental development rate of children, as if we need any more of that? Makes me fucking angry, so much aggressive dumbing down and brainwashing of society in the name of greed and control that I fear great regression collectively as a species. Well, not really a fear. It's happening in real time.

Anyway, the dot, It would be a form of decline, but not enough to start crying about. There'd be that one dude bitching on an old janky early 2000s forum and many would probably laugh at him and call him a nerd and to shut up and look at the pretty Half-Life 2 graphics promo even though he is completely right. I might even be that nerd actually (not that I was on forums in 2003) the orienteering goes a long way for me in Morrowind when the core balance is completely retarded past a point and the content starts to repeat. I have still never beat the game even with over a hundred mods. It isn't worthy of that time investment. But the first 20-30 hours is one of the most wonderful RPG experiences out there.

More on dot vs no dot: Let me explain, what happens when you followed the given directions in morrowind, but somehow you can't find the damn place? You can give up like a bitch and go elsewhere, you can run around haphazardly searching, retrace your steps and try again, or you can CHART the area in a smart and organized fashion, refer to the map and so forth. Honestly, all are valid choices. and this creates more scenarios. Maybe you find a well-hidden dungeon nearby while searching. Maybe you catch blight desease from an annoying bug you wouldn't have otherwise, have no potions (lol) and have to clear the dungeon you are trying to find now with the blight? and So forth.
With a dot, none of this would happen. I would briefly refer to the map and then hone-in on the dot. Still way better than GPS though, and yeah is a reasonable middle ground for the normies.

Also, not sure if diablo was a good defense of proc gen there. Has long been an example of, if not the very motivation of the (correct) perception that hand-crafted is king. It is king, but it's not such a black and white topic. Proc gen has proven its salt at this stage, it has high value in specific contexts, long-time haters (as I once was) just needs to actually give some modern RLs a chance. Jarlfrank is a filthy save scummer by his own admittance though so it is never going to happen. Shame. I am betting there are games with degrees of proc gen he has played but doesn't even realize though, lol. Xcom EU/2? The battle maps are partially random gen. Played Morrowind? Yeah the landmass was initially random gen (and the base landmass is the shittest part of it lol, I'm not helping!). shit's here to stay. I do want more handcrafted ingenuity to come back for sure, but that was mostly another thing lost with the modern age. I don't want these shit handcrafted-modern games wtf (as always, exceptions apply).

 

[NaturallyCarnivorousSheep]

Show me someone that didn't play Morrowind by refering to an external map and I'll show you a bold faced liar.

I hate niggers and the antichrist

 

[BrainMuncher]

'Arden Fall'? Bit on the nose, don't ya think?

I can't see any cliff racers in the screenshots so maybe it's just a coincidence

 

[JarlFrank]

Show me someone that didn't play Morrowind by refering to an external map and I'll show you a bold faced liar.

I played Morrowind without an external map, just following what NPCs and my quest journal told me. Didn't even have a proper internet connection back when I first played Morrowind, so I couldn't access any online guides.

I also had a pirated version so I didn't even have the beautiful paper map, which is the only external map you ever have to consult. Seriously, every major dungeon in the game is marked on that map. Nowadays I always play with the paper map nearby because it's such a joy to reference it and explore the places painted on it.

Spoiler

I honestly don't care for the clairvoyant quest compass thing, but putting a dot on the in-game map wouldn't be out of the question particularly when a lot of games have the NPC tell you, "Let me mark it on your map." Hell, Fallout did this in 1997, so I don't know why Bethesda couldn't have done this in a game released 5 years later.

Some locations in Morrowind WILL be marked on your map though. Sometimes NPCs will put a marker on your map for major locations like cities or big dungeons. Smaller locations like mini-dungeons don't have map markers and require directions. It's a good mix.

 

[JarlFrank]

'Arden Fall'? Bit on the nose, don't ya think?

You know the funniest part about it? It wasn't even intentional. When someone pointed out to the lead dev that Ardenfall sounds incredibly similar to Vvardenfell, he said "Oh shit, must've been subconscious influence" and now he regrets going with that name because it sounds like a ripoff (when it isn't intended to be)