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WTF was Viconia Evil in BG3

BruceVC

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It's an event we know pretty much nothing about.
1. Do you think she would do it for the evil lulz?
2. Do you think it would fit her character writing in BG2?
Not just for kicks, but there are a number of reasons why she'd kill a family.

And sure it fits.

Mazzy: Listen to me, drow. Though our leader has made the foolish choice of allowing you to join this party, you shall receive no welcome from me. Slayer of innocents! You taint the sun with your evil!
Viconia: Ha! You do not frighten me, tiny pretend-paladin. I've had taller footstools and am little concerned with whatever brawn your diminutive form could muster.
Mazzy: Cruel words will do you little good when your head is on a pike. Step across the line even once, and I will kill you.
Viconia: We shall see when Fate plays her hand who shall be the last one standing.

Viconia: Sarevok, may I share a whispered word with you?
Sarevok: Yes, drow? What is it you want?
Viconia: I miss the customs of my homeland, like the breaking in of new pleasure slaves. The largest and strongest were the hardest to break, but they were the most rewarding. Sarevok, I find your great size... intriguing.
Sarevok: Were you to break me, Viconia, you might find nothing but the chill emptiness of the grave within.
Viconia: That does not repulse me as you might imagine. We drow are ever eager to broaden our... experiences.
Sarevok: I orchestrated a war to slaughter thousands. I have felt the cold embrace of death. I have witnessed the horrors of the Abyss. But you, Viconia... you scare me.
Viconia: Cowards everywhere I turn! If you find your courage, Sarevok, seek me out.


Viconia: Sarevok, have you had the opportunity to consider my earlier offer? Untold pleasures await you if you would but submit to me.
Sarevok: I have considered it, Viconia. And I must reject you and your... temptations.
Viconia: A pity your manhood is so lacking. I am a cruel mistress, but my slaves always found their subjugation to be most satisfying to their own physical desires as well.
Sarevok: When Bhaal held sway over my soul, I reveled in the bloody carnage I wrought. But my will was not my own. As captivating as your dominance might be, Viconia, I will not surrender my being to the whims of another again... be they god or drow.
Viconia: Then you are of no further interest to me, rivvil... though I suspect your dreams will be filled with dark imaginings of the hedonistic pleasures you have denied yourself. But even your dreams will be but a pale shadow of my true decadence.
Sarevok: Of that, Viconia, I have no doubt.

Is that some kind of argument or something?
I'm really not sure what did you try to achieve here, aside from maybe giving someone a slight boner.
That's some pretty evil talk. Also she doesn't dispute Mazzy calling her a slayer of innocents.
Roguey lets not be too judgemental towards Viconia, everyone deserves a redemption arc story

Besides her sex slave suggestion with Sarevok makes up for it :bounce:
 

Roguey

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She's wanted by the police and TSR made it clear that in their stories, the police are always good and when one is bad, he must be punished.

OK, so lets pretend that this is true.

Evil shall never be portrayed in an attractive light and shall be used
only as a foe to illustrate a moral issue.
This means Viconia and every other "evil" companion in BG1 must actually be neutral or good, because according to you Evil characters can only be foes and not party members.

Clearly the TSR code means jack shit.
https://www.gamesradar.com/making-of-baldurs-gate/

These proved only minor limitations as the game ended up being filled with an array of popular and familiar creatures, plus a few lesser-known enemies from the D&D canon. However, there were more challenging restrictions coming from D&D owners TSR. “TSR’s Code of Ethics was somewhat limiting and forced us to often boil everything evil down into simply ‘being greedy’“, says Chris. “This one dimensional portrayal of evil was limiting but wasn’t something that prevented the team from accomplishing its larger goals for the content in the game. We were still able to tell the story we wanted to tell, we still allowed you to be as greedy or psychotic as you liked while you were playing, there just weren’t as many ramifications to being evil, or as many avenues to it, as we would have liked.”

Sure enough, this limited freedom to flesh out the ‘evil’ side of the game saw most quests and indeed the core plot playing out much better for good or neutral aligned characters. But while this aspect of the game was criticised by a handful of hardcore roleplayers, the finished product was hardly tarnished by it, and the critical and popular success of Baldur’s Gate proved this.
 

MerchantKing

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2. She never was some generic cardboard villain.
Then why did I have to kill her twice in the originals?
You didn't have to kill her. The choice was yours.

Decide what's the better explanation here:
1. Viconia killed a farmer family twice. Which is kind of weird she did it precisely two times.
First time it was a guy, his wife, and kids. Second time it was a guy and his two sons.

Reputation doesn't mean much more than people assumed she was evil and the flaming fist good. Reputation is not alignment (although it was treated as such in terms of how you got your bhaalspawn powers, for some reason).

Here the relevant sections of the TSR Code:

1: GOOD VERSUS EVIL

Evil shall never be portrayed in an attractive light and shall be used
only as a foe to illustrate a moral issue. All product shall focus on the
struggle of good versus injustice and evil, casting the protagonist as an
agent of right. Archetypes (heroes, villains, etc.) shall be used only to
illustrate a moral issue. Satanic symbology, rituals, and phrases shall
not appear in TSR products.


3: AGENTS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT

Agents of law enforcement (constables, policemen, judges, government
officials, and respected institutions) should not be depicted in such a
way as to create disrespect for current established authorities/social
values. When such an agent is depicted as corrupt, the example must be
expressed as an exception and the culprit should ultimately be brought to
justice.

4: CRIME AND CRIMINALS

Crimes shall not be presented in such ways as to promote distrust of law
enforcement agents/agencies or to inspire others with the desire to
imitate criminals. Crime should be depicted as a sordid and unpleasant
activity. Criminals should not be presented in glamorous circumstances.
Player character thieves are constantly encouraged to act towards the
common good.
BG1+2 were made under WotC who did not enforce this code of ethics.
 
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It does not, as Ed has gone into in great detail in his retrospective video. Evil is never rewarded, only punished.

I literally quoted the part that it violates constantly. If some idiot designers says that Minsc in BG1 was a dwarf sorcerer then that does not make Minsc a dwarf sorcerer, it makes them wrong. If they say that the TSR ethics restricted BG1 then they are wrong, because we have the same obvious evidence of counterexamples. What they think that is obviously wrong is not relevant.
 

Roguey

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Some of the BG2 endgame powers you get from evil choices are really fucking good.
BG2 was not restricted by TSR's Code of Ethics because they had been acquired by Wizards of the Coast in the interim and abandoned it. Torment wasn't restricted either. BG just had the unfortunate luck of being released in 1998.
 

Lagole Gon

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Pathfinder: Wrath
Some of the BG2 endgame powers you get from evil choices are really fucking good.
BG2 was not restricted by TSR's Code of Ethics because they had been acquired by Wizards of the Coast in the interim and abandoned it. Torment wasn't restricted either. BG just had the unfortunate luck of being released in 1998.
Oh.
So I guess you are basing your whole argument on 2 lines of character lore she has in BG1.
And not BG2 where 99% of her character writing comes from.

...

So what was the point of arguing TSR code again?
 

KeighnMcDeath

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Why does the name Viconia remind me of

16099661839278.jpg

Vivica A. FOX?
 

Roguey

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Oh.
So I guess you are basing your whole argument on 2 lines of character lore she has in BG1.
And not BG2 where 99% of her character writing comes from.

...

So what was the point of arguing TSR code again?
The guy who wrote her in BG2 was thrilled with her cameo and has no complaints:

The gasp I let out when I finally went to the House of Grief in BG3. You'd think that I, of ALL people, would have been prepared for who I found there, might even have SUSPECTED, but noooo
 

InD_ImaginE

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Oh.
So I guess you are basing your whole argument on 2 lines of character lore she has in BG1.
And not BG2 where 99% of her character writing comes from.

...

So what was the point of arguing TSR code again?
The guy who wrote her in BG2 was thrilled with her cameo and has no complaints:

The gasp I let out when I finally went to the House of Grief in BG3. You'd think that I, of ALL people, would have been prepared for who I found there, might even have SUSPECTED, but noooo


They can sodomite Viconia on screen, rip her throat and fuck her corpse and Gaider would still be "fine" with it

You know how Twitter works Roguey

Jesus stop trying to excuse bad writing on Larian part
 

laclongquan

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Viconia is Evil in both BG games. I remember there's something long ass need doing so she change to True Neutral at the end. It's one of big things back in the days and a major draw to choose her Romance instead of two others.

IIRC, the change of her alignment was considered to be an appeasing fans thing, created solely to draw interest. A black propaganda thing, as all dark elves thing tend to be.
 

Konjad

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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Oh.
So I guess you are basing your whole argument on 2 lines of character lore she has in BG1.
And not BG2 where 99% of her character writing comes from.

...

So what was the point of arguing TSR code again?
The guy who wrote her in BG2 was thrilled with her cameo and has no complaints:

The gasp I let out when I finally went to the House of Grief in BG3. You'd think that I, of ALL people, would have been prepared for who I found there, might even have SUSPECTED, but noooo


They can sodomite Viconia on screen, rip her throat and fuck her corpse and Gaider would still be "fine" with it

You know how Twitter works Roguey

Jesus stop trying to excuse bad writing on Larian part

Bro, did you play anything recent written by Gaider? He sunk so low that even Larian writers are way better, so I believe his tweet.

I wanted to put here Stray Gods demo link to Steam to make my point, but it seems they pulled demo out :lol: Must have not been convincing potential buyers :lol:
 

Roguey

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Incidentally BG3 does in fact acknowledge a banter from Throne of Bhaal:



Viconia: Minsc, I am finding myself unable to deny your effectiveness in battle.
Minsc: Eh... Boo, was that a compliment?
Viconia: Oh, it was, and your response is the reason for my query. Just how old is Boo?
Minsc: Boo? He is young by the standards of his miniature giant cohorts.
Viconia: So he has exceeded the normal lifespan of a normal rodent of his type?
Minsc: I believe he takes offense to the term "rodent."
Viconia: Perhaps he bears examining. Some form of exploratory dissection. It was an art in my homeland.
Minsc: You know, try as he might, Boo just doesn't get your kind of humor.

She wasn't joking. She tried to dissect Boo, had her eyes clawed out, and then ran away, this is canon.

"B-but my epilogue"

Like I said earlier, just because something *can* happen in your play-through doesn't mean it *did*.
 

Eisenheinrich

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In a sea of retarded posts this OP somehow build an island of retardation.

There is a canon version about the Bhaalspawn Saga. Larian sticks to said canon. That canon does not care about how you treated drowbitch some 20 years ago in your cumstained basement.
 

Lagole Gon

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Pathfinder: Wrath
Oh.
So I guess you are basing your whole argument on 2 lines of character lore she has in BG1.
And not BG2 where 99% of her character writing comes from.

...

So what was the point of arguing TSR code again?
The guy who wrote her in BG2 was thrilled with her cameo and has no complaints:

George Lucas was thrilled about Jar Jar and midichlorians.
Your point?
 

volklore

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Anyway Viconia's not portrayed as just randomly evil in bg3, she's head of a shar cult which is pretty evil in itself although not just ''evil for the lulz''.
Main issue is all screen time she gets is through Sheart words about her and her encounter which is very short. Jaheira and Minsc get a really nice sendoff in comparison.

Returning characters should be kinda considered under the spectrum of fanservice anyways because there's no reason to bring them back for any other reason and it's hard to argue Viconia and Sarevok don't get shafted in this aspect. They could keep them evil and decanonize their ''good'' ending while still giving them a better/cooler sendoff.
 

NecroLord

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Anyway Viconia's not portrayed as just randomly evil in bg3, she's head of a shar cult which is pretty evil in itself although not just ''evil for the lulz''.
Main issue is all screen time she gets is through Sheart words about her and her encounter which is very short. Jaheira and Minsc get a really nice sendoff in comparison.

Returning characters should be kinda considered under the spectrum of fanservice anyways because there's no reason to bring them back for any other reason and it's hard to argue Viconia and Sarevok don't get shafted in this aspect. They could keep them evil and decanonize their ''good'' ending while still giving them a better/cooler sendoff.
Sarevok's ending in TOB was rather tragic. You could redeem him, but he was always a tormented soul. I absolutely do not understand Larian's reasoning for bringing him back other than egregious fanservice.
 

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