Vapourware Zodiac Legion - X-COM and dungeons

[Galdred]

Steam Community page is up. I'll try to get a working demo soon through Steam.

 

[Jimmious]

Steam Community page is up. I'll try to get a working demo soon through Steam.

I guess I'm a Steam noob, but you have no Store page but a Community page? Is that possible? Cool anyways

 

[Galdred]

Steam Community page is up. I'll try to get a working demo soon through Steam.

I guess I'm a Steam noob, but you have no Store page but a Community page? Is that possible? Cool anyways

There are not that many requirements for the Community page, but the store page requires a trailer, and stuff like the end user agreement.

 

[Galdred]

So, first day at Play Paris by PAX.
Let's say that the number of visitors was below our expectation, and unless I can reach a conversion rate of 500%, this won't be worth it.
But feedback gathered during such events is pretty interesting, and many visitors were killed by the UI rather than their skeletons opponents.

Here is a short playtest in French.
Unfortunately, the game does not progress very quickly as I had to answer the questions while playing:

 

[vonAchdorf]

Is your booth tucked in a corner, or is the audience not interested in this kind of game?

The interviewer looked cute though.

 

[Galdred]

Is your booth tucked in a corner, or is the audience not interested in this kind of game?

The interviewer looked cute though.

Actually, they completely botched their marketing campaign, and there were very few visitors. Some other indie devs wanted to ask for a refund. But it is true that it is a niche game anyway. But many people are into turn based games, and it is a bit hard to dig into at a convention.

 

[vonAchdorf]

Which problems did you observe with your UI? It doesn't look convoluted or complicated to me.

 

[Galdred]

Which problems did you observe with your UI? It doesn't look convoluted or complicated to me.

It doesn't display range when selecting power, or the attack range. Many player suicided their archer by going into melee with him (the bow doesn't seem obvious enough I suppose).
Too many stats are displayed, so people attack with a random character against another one without knowing how effective that would be. I need to find a better way to convey who would make for a better target.
95% of the players lost the mage first. I thought giving him a shield would increase his survivability, but the end result was that people thought he was there for tanking, which resulting in atrocious mage casualties.
Some players did not notice that skeletons got endless reinforcements and tried to kill them all before proceeding with the mission (I should at least reward reaching the teleporter).
It was not obvious who still could act.
I also need to find a way to convey how the flanking bonus works (it works close to D20 actually: you get one when you sandwich the target, but players expected that going in the back worked, or that it didn't matter at all).
Players did not understand the difference between mana and fatigue (basically, casting spells decrease your max stamina, while using physical abilities only decrease your current stamina), and didn't use their physical abilities much.

Also, I think the demo map is too hard:
I routinely lose one guy here, so most players who did not know the map layout and the rules got trounced trying to figure them out (I think 3 players out of 20 managed to reach the objective, and that was after I buffed the player team a little).

So I will rework all of it (especially the visual display of range) to make it easier to take informed decisions (as opposed to randomly clicking and praying).

One game journalist told me that the game had great potential, but going to conventions was a bad move, because most players and journos were looking for quick games to play here, and it was too niche. I think he was right, but at least, this one was probably a bad deal for everyone (except the public I guess, there were a lot of board games or gaming PC/arcade machines available all the time).

 

[ushas]

Sounds you got some useful feedback at least. Was thinking, perhaps conventions and conferences are also useful for establishing contacts with journalists and other developers.

Some of those may not be necessarily UI problems, just matter of getting know the game. For example, unless it needs to be clear right away, I can imagine we will find out over time what's effective against who. Are you showing the player exact stats of enemies?

Re Q/A, yet to catch up, so only a few questions right now (apologies if already answered):
-- Is demo Steam only?
-- Do you plan the EA and/or the final game drm free?
-- Mac/Linux? (looks Moai supports it, in case of gathering some statistics - at least one linux fan over here)
-- For me personally would be intriguing to hear more about the neural network AI, if you would be in mood to write about that some more in the future, if it's still on the table. How to plan train it etc.

 

[Galdred]

Sounds you got some useful feedback at least. Was thinking, perhaps conventions and conferences are also useful for establishing contacts with journalists and other developers.

That is somewhat true, but you don't have much time to hang out with other devs, compared to professional conventions (like the GDC or smaller equivalent). Anyway, for contacts, it is true that doing a lot of events help, because networking only works if you meet the same persons over and again. Exchanging business cards doesn't achieve much, and people are usually much friendler the second or third time they meet you. But I think I'll stick to free/local conventions until I find one dedicated to RPG/tactical games.

Feedback is very useful indeed, and it is really depressing to see people struggle with the game. I'll probably add a tutorial and an easier level before this one, but I don't know how to do tutorial well, because they are usually not very engaging to play (at least, I cannot stomach them anymore, and I usually skip them whenever I can).

Some of those may not be necessarily UI problems, just matter of getting know the game. For example, unless it needs to be clear right away, I can imagine we will find out over time what's effective against who. Are you showing the player exact stats of enemies?

Some of those may not be necessarily UI problems, just matter of getting know the game. For example, unless it needs to be clear right away, I can imagine we will find out over time what's effective against who. Are you showing the player exact stats of enemies?[/QUOTE]
Indeed, that might be a problem of getting accustomed to the gear in the game (I don't know why people insist on targeting the guys hiding behind a shield when they could target someone with a two hander instead). The stats are displayed, but it is usually not very convenient to have to refer to them. I guess I'll have to find a good way to display the chance to hit and damage.

Re Q/A, yet to catch up, so only a few questions right now (apologies if already answered):
-- Is demo Steam only?
-- Do you plan the EA and/or the final game drm free?
-- Mac/Linux? (looks Moai supports it, in case of gathering some statistics - at least one linux fan over here)
-- For me personally would be intriguing to hear more about the neural network AI, if you would be in mood to write about that some more in the future, if it's still on the table. How to plan train it etc.

- I will make the demo downloadable from my website.
- I will try to get the game on gog and/or itch.io (not sure anyone outside dev is using the latter, though).
- For Mac, I will need to get one first. For Linux, I will try to make it work. Moai works great with linux indeed, and I tried to write portable code, so it "should" be fine. It used to work before, but I stopped testing builds on linux quite a few versions ago. So the plan is to get both out, but I cannot promise it yet.
- Sadly, it has been postponed (I will try to NN some parts of it later, but I have to take care of this geoscape first!), because there are a lot of things I need to add first, and the current zerg AI works fine so far.

 

[ushas]

Kudos for downloadable demo. Yeah, I can imagine it's unfeasible for you to test several platforms simultaneously. As far as recall, Invisible, Inc. runs well under linux. itch.io has this thing where you can choose how much to pay/donate.

The stats are displayed, but it is usually not very convenient to have to refer to them. I guess I'll have to find a good way to display the chance to hit and damage.

Oh, I see. Was just thinking whether it's uncovered by some intel spell or so.

Sadly, it has been postponed (I will try to NN some parts of it later, but I have to take care of this geoscape first!), because there are a lot of things I need to add first, and the current zerg AI works fine so far.

Np, just that it got my attention. You might end up using it in a next game, or another dev will. It's good people talk about innovating. Most guys I know using NNs (in unrelated fields) usually end up combining it with other systems. If worried about overtraining or so, maybe you might end up combining it with your normal AI anyway...
Just a question - was it meant for the strategy layer?

Speaking of the strategic part, read the FAQ, but it isn't completely clear to me how it will play (sorry bad memory, need to reread the thread). So there are two main sides and two main strongholds and the game ends upon us conquering the enemy's or loosing ours? But then there are 11 more zodiacs. Will they also play as individual entities, taking their turns, having own strongholds and everything, till joining either side? (possibly speaks my X-COM of Wonders wishful thinking though)

 

[Galdred]

Kudos for downloadable demo. Yeah, I can imagine it's unfeasible for you to test several platforms simultaneously. As far as recall, Invisible, Inc. runs well under linux. itch.io has this thing where you can choose how much to pay/donate.

Making the game run under Linux should not be too hard indeed. It used to run just fine, but I was tired of compiling and testing both versions. I will try to do it again for the demo.

The stats are displayed, but it is usually not very convenient to have to refer to them. I guess I'll have to find a good way to display the chance to hit and damage.

Oh, I see. Was just thinking whether it's uncovered by some intel spell or so.[/QUOTE]

Actually, not displaying the stats unless you have some intel (or some experience fighting a given enemy) might be a good idea, but I wonder whether it would feel frustrating or not to do so (because without the stats, it is not possible to compute chance to hit and damage).

Sadly, it has been postponed (I will try to NN some parts of it later, but I have to take care of this geoscape first!), because there are a lot of things I need to add first, and the current zerg AI works fine so far.

Np, just that it got my attention. You might end up using it in a next game, or another dev will. It's good people talk about innovating. Most guys I know using NNs (in unrelated fields) usually end up combining it with other systems. If worried about overtraining or so, maybe you might end up combining it with your normal AI anyway...

I would really like to do so. It depends on what kind of funding I could get, but usually, for niche indie game, it is not that much...

Just a question - was it meant for the strategy layer?

Speaking of the strategic part, read the FAQ, but it isn't completely clear to me how it will play (sorry bad memory, need to reread the thread). So there are two main sides and two main strongholds and the game ends upon us conquering the enemy's or loosing ours? But then there are 11 more zodiacs. Will they also play as individual entities, taking their turns, having own strongholds and everything, till joining either side? (possibly speaks my X-COM of Wonders wishful thinking though)

Good catch, it is still in prototyping stage, so I can still change a lot, but the intent is as follow.

There would be 4 "sides" on the map:
- The "league of opposing sorcerers"
These are your main opponents. They will try to ally or subjugate the neutral kingdoms and destroy your organization. They don't rely on Zodiac Magic, but use more dangerous raw magic themselves, which has the unfortunate consequence of drawing demons to this plane of existence.
- The demons
These are primal forces that are drawn to this plane because of the influx of magic. They will raid your kingdoms and the neutral ones. Even though they are not technically allied to the league of sorcerers, the sorcerers are able to somewhat shield their own provinces from them.
- The neutral kingdoms
These are your regular feudal kingdoms that are ill equipped to deal with magic and demons. The task of the Zodiac Order is to protect them, but some might be tempted to join the League, especially if you do a poor job of protecting them. Other might be directly invaded by the league.
- The Zodiac Order
The Zodiac Order is based on the Teutonic (being summoned by local lords to deal with pagans, trying to turn into a local superpower in the process) and Hospitalier orders (because it is split between its 13 signs, like the Hospitaliers were organized around its langues).
They use a more controlled form of magic (which is heavily tied to their artifacts).

Gameplay wise, things will be "Roughly similar" to Star Wars Rebellion/Supremacy, or Twilight Struggle, but simpler:

You deploy resources (envoys, agents and armies) to regions.
Envoys allow you to sway minor factions.
Spies allow you to find mission opportunities (h to assassinate, facilities to sabotages, vaults to raid...), and to prepare them(ie get some benefits during the mission itself, like delayed reinforcements, sick guards, starting with the map of the mission...).
And armies are there to control territory. When armies face each other, they get slowly grinded down by attrition, but some mission opportunities will appear, letting you influence the combats.
Most armies will be static, and will represent feudal levies and garrisons.
So basically, instead of the usual dice resolution you'd have for ground combat in Star Wars Rebellion (or coup attempt in Twilight Struggle), the outcome of opposed challenges will be determined by tactical missions (if you decide to send a party to do it).

In order to avoid making the management part explode into a newish Total War abomination, the number of resources (envoys, agents and armies) will be limited by the territories you control, your technologies, and the facilities in your stronghold.

 

[baud]

I like the explanation used in the video for Battle Brother: "a game with sword and hexagones"

 

[Galdred]

I like the explanation used in the video for Battle Brother: "a game with sword and hexagones"

I would describe Zodiac Legion as fantasy X(-)Com, or better as Descent(or Heroquest) meets X-Com, but that might not be feasible in an official promotional video...

 

[baud]

I like the explanation used in the video for Battle Brother: "a game with sword and hexagones"

I would describe Zodiac Legion as fantasy X(-)Com, or better as Descent(or Heroquest) meets X-Com, but that might not be feasible in an official promotional video...

Seeing how the guy you were talking to drawing a blank when you said Descent, I understand it might not be the best idea to use it in a promotional video.

 

[Galdred]

I like the explanation used in the video for Battle Brother: "a game with sword and hexagones"

I would describe Zodiac Legion as fantasy X(-)Com, or better as Descent(or Heroquest) meets X-Com, but that might not be feasible in an official promotional video...

Seeing how the guy you were talking to drawing a blank when you said Descent, I understand it might not be the best idea to use it in a promotional video.

It is more that I am not completely sure it is legal to use other trademarks in promotional material. But for some reason, "spiritual successor" or "inspired by" seems to work just fine, at least for indies.

Descent is not widely known indeed, but it is also the game's fault for being really clunky (and unbalanced). We had more than 30 pages of printed house rules and modifications for the Road To Legend campaign of Descent 1st edition.
I guess talking about Heroquest or DnD would make more sense, but Heroquest is a bit trivial and gets boring when player try to play optimally (like take a lot of turns to reposition before each room, and search everything for treasure until the density of loot in the treasure deck gets too low compared to traps and monsters), and the system is quite different from DnD (we use 32D32 instead of a 20 sided dice).

 

[baud]

I like the explanation used in the video for Battle Brother: "a game with sword and hexagones"

I would describe Zodiac Legion as fantasy X(-)Com, or better as Descent(or Heroquest) meets X-Com, but that might not be feasible in an official promotional video...

Seeing how the guy you were talking to drawing a blank when you said Descent, I understand it might not be the best idea to use it in a promotional video.

It is more that I am not completely sure it is legal to use other trademarks in promotional material. But for some reason, "spiritual successor" or "inspired by" seems to work just fine, at least for indies.

I think indies can use "inspired by", as long as it looks like a derivative work and not an asset flip. I'm interested in an medieval XCOM style game, so I'll follow the thread and try to swing by next time you're going to a convention near Paris, since I live around there.

 

[ushas]

Making the game run under Linux should not be too hard indeed. It used to run just fine, but I was tired of compiling and testing both versions. I will try to do it again for the demo.

Heh, here I was thinking to try demo under wine and report back how it plays for meanwhile you're deciding if/when viable to offer support

Actually, not displaying the stats unless you have some intel (or some experience fighting a given enemy) might be a good idea, but I wonder whether it would feel frustrating or not to do so (because without the stats, it is not possible to compute chance to hit and damage).

Maybe when and how much info is given and how vague vs. exact is something that's your design decision... I'm fairly sure that played games even without exact target info such as cth and dam all right, unless there is a complex number of mechanics involved you can deduct some things through observation and experience, additionally with ingame lore help (thinking how in QfG you can ask npcs about local wildlife, for example, but wasn't also x-com featuring alien autopsy?). Can imagine one can get all sort of intel on units of the region when spying, and/or have some tactical spell for those who want to see all stats of enemies (if there is more to deduct, eg. thinking of x-com mind probe now), for example. Information = power. But your direction may as well be the opposite, minimizing the noise and showing only important aspects in tactical (thus only derived cth and dam?) and then focusing the effort more on strategical depth. So... am practically saying nothing here...


Thanks for the strategic layer info, the concept sounds really intriguing (relics... Hospitallers... Oh!), fingers crossed

I think indies can use "inspired by", as long as it looks like a derivative work and not an asset flip.

Agreed, however, ideal would be if the game's description is self-contained enough so those references serve more for marketing and for faster driving home for those who do know/played them.

 

[Galdred]

The Test live interview is live. It is also only in French (but my French is also hard to understand...). I will try to add subtitles one way or another.

 

[Galdred]

Sorry for the lack of progress: I had to take some contract work to fund the development of the game until it is KS ready, so I didn't have time to tidy things up for a proper demo. I should find some time during the holidays, and my contracts should end around October (I plan to do 1/3 contract work and 2/3 work on the game).
I need to write a blog post about self funding one day

 

[Darth Roxor]

tfw last post in this thread so long ago, 'new posts' takes you to the OP

 

[Galdred]

tfw last post in this thread so long ago, 'new posts' takes you to the OP

Which is a bit outdated on top of it
I will remedy that tomorrow.

 

[YanBG]

Looking great! I read your post about the paperdoll system, i design one myself too and i have a few questions.

Do you still use TexturePacker? Since your frames of body parts are cropped and fit closely together in spritesheets, does it create a lookup table as well? Is it a csv file?
I already use csv(loaded into grid) for the data in my game but i wonder if these will become too big and reduce the performance(~200k frames of equipment).

 

[Galdred]

Looking great! I read your post about the paperdoll system, i design one myself too and i have a few questions.

Do you still use TexturePacker? Since your frames of body parts are cropped and fit closely together in spritesheets, does it create a lookup table as well? Is it a csv file?
I already use csv(loaded into grid) for the data in my game but i wonder if these will become too big and reduce the performance(~200k frames of equipment).

I was preparing my upcoming blog update about the paperdolling system, so it is a great timing!
I still use TexturePacker indeed.
I creates a lookup table that allows you to retrieve sprites from their original name, or from an idx.
My texture atlas is in lua, but you can specify a different export format.
There are a lot of engine export options, but if you use a custom engine, you will have to specify your own export format.
Mine(moai) looks like this:

return {
texture = 'base_armor_upper_red.png',
frames = {
{
name = "attack_north_breastplate_chainmail0000.png",
spriteColorRect = { x = 117, y = 118, width = 20, height = 29 },
uvRect = { u0 = 0.193339, v0 = 0.0238095, u1 = 0.216897, v1 = 0.18254 },
spriteSourceSize = { width = 256, height = 256 },
spriteTrimmed = true,
textureRotated = true
},
{
name = "attack_north_breastplate_chainmail0001.png",
spriteColorRect = { x = 118, y = 121, width = 20, height = 29 },
uvRect = { u0 = 0.193339, v0 = 0.0238095, u1 = 0.216897, v1 = 0.18254 },
spriteSourceSize = { width = 256, height = 256 },
spriteTrimmed = true,
textureRotated = true
},

The hit on performance is minimal on my side(I currently have 50K frames in game but I didn't export everything yet): light shaders take more GPU time, but the main bottleneck is computing Line of Sight for all tiles in the path whenever someone moves.
You can disallow texture rotation if performance worries you, and even trimming, but then, there would be little point in using TP.
I think the memory saved is really worth it.

 

[Darth Canoli]

Interesting, being a big fan of x-com, this sounds great.
I'm not sure where you are on your development but you might want to do another interview, except in english (if you plan an english release) and prepare it or cut the blanks / fails (like when you talk about descent and the interviewer clearly don't know what you're talking about.
You should make your promotional video like a movie if you're not very good with live (doesn't look like you are) and restart a scene when it's not good enough.

And you should probably cut / take down this one once you have a better interview, promotion is really important, i feel like your game deserves a far better advertisement.