Vapourware Zodiac Legion - X-COM and dungeons

[hello friend]

They don't even need to be mostly naked

I disagree. Galdred, don't listen to this man.

 

[Haba]

Don't worry, Galdred has a lore reason why in his setting women cannot wear clothes.

An evil curse or something.

 

[Galdred]

Don't worry, Galdred has a lore reason why in his setting women cannot wear clothes.

An evil curse or something.

Like "photosynthesis parasites"

I like armour on women, though!

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

So... does she have tennis elbow on her left arm (thus the copper arm support sleeve for her joints) if can she NOT find the same length for both arms? Wth sort of LBV is that skimpy shit? Pretty soon she'll be running around in just a thong as those tights/pants are about in thd graveyard. Makeshift bikini top for easy untying? Is this a streetwhore wanting to get fucked? Horny bitch?

 

[Cyberarmy]

I like armour on women, though!

yeah, it is OK

le armor

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Now he/she had the honor to be the woman he/she always wanted to be. No more pretending in his pink and lavender tights.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Don't worry, Galdred has a lore reason why in his setting women cannot wear clothes.

An evil curse or something.

Like "photosynthesis parasites"

I like armour on women, though!

I'm fairly certain those are hydrosynthesis parasites that also double as an epidermal breathing apparatus.

 

[Infinitron]

Here is a new version of the Jailbreak mission, now updated with traps and hidden mechanisms. We will soon add semi randomized levels to keep things fresh.

 

[Acrux]

Is UI scaling in the plans? Sorry if it's been discussed, but when I tried the demo I could barely read the text on a 1920x1080 screen.

 

[Galdred]

Is UI scaling in the plans? Sorry if it's been discussed, but when I tried the demo I could barely read the text on a 1920x1080 screen.

Yes, it is! I plan something like a font size settings, and to have a 1.5* version of icons so that we could have 100% 150%, *2 *3 and *4 sizes

 

[Galdred]

Here is our prototype woman body for instance:

She is very muscular, but the job remains to crush skulls with sword or axe after all.

We also have hair variations for male, but I still need to import/integrate them in game.

 

[Galdred]

I made a Twitter thread about the realism of medieval fights in general, and the way I would envision thel in Zodiac Legion, with some cool pictures from the fencing manuals of the time.

Spoiler

I had a discussion about realism in game with some of my friends when designing
@ZodiacLegion
They argued that no one cared as long as the combat presented interesting decision.

However, I find it strange to have spent so much time on fantasy RPG, on PC or tabletop, and still be totally unable to imagine how an armored fight would look like. I think it is better to have the gameplay reinforce the theme, and for that, some realism is needed.

Sword poleaxes were not really a thing, but they make sense (and the author gives instruction for you to get yours done at your local blacksmith).

One issue I have with armors in movies or games is that it doesn't do its job at all. It either provides minor protection, or is even detrimental, as you can see with every character going helmetless.
This is what too much disdain for realism gets you.

which makes having a good idea of how medieval combat was pretty hard, as it is usually not a topic historians are really interested in, because the specifics of 1v1 combat has little importance in the large campaigns or battles they study.

So, it took me quite some discussions with my HEMA instructors, and some reading to just get a good view of how medieval armored combat worked. But this scene, from the movie "The King" is a good start:

The main issue here is that the fighters do a lot of counter productive moves, but their outcome is kind of realistic (in that they exhaust them and don't advance the fight). Armor was a very big deal, and plate was totally impervious to cut, and almost impervious to thrust.
That is why you see so many of the manuals focusing on hitting the weak spots of the armor with a thrust, getting your opponent to the ground, or disarming him. A strong poleaxe hit to the head still remains an efficient way to go, but it is very hard to do.

So the dreaded grappling rules came into play a lot at the time, because of how important it was to bypass the armor, but grappling with armor and weapons was a slightly different affair, as you would lead with blows or use your weapon as a lever.

A book I found very interesting about the matter was The Use of Medieval Weaponry by Eric Lowe:
https://www.aeonbooks.co.uk/product/the-use-of-medieval-weaponry/94108/

It goes from the sources (Talhoffer, Fiore dei Liberi, Licthenauer, ...) and adds the personal experience of the author when it comes to asymetric weapon fights to describe the flow of medieval combat.
I want to make armors play a major role in Zodiac Legion, and most weapons do "stamina damage" against armor, until the target drops prone (stamina would also double as wrestling HP), with finishing blows against downed targets.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

The key takeaway here is that wrestling is in.
Oh yeah.

 

[Dadd]

Mmmm... Wrastling.

 

[Galdred]

Mmmm... Wrastling.

funnily, most armors didn't have much in the way of groin protection. Usually, the tasset would go down, but it would not protect from blows from behind. One suggested technique in one of the manuals was to start with a polearm feint to the foot, then raise it into the groin to force the opponent down.

The key takeaway here is that wrestling is in.
Oh yeah.

We'll have to find a good way to represent it, animation wise, especially since it should end with both characters in the same tile.

Some other random findings: one handed weapons are utterly useless against heavy armor. Even the specialized anti armor ones need to be used with two hands (like the rondel dagger or the small version of the bec de corbin). That is why no one who could afford plate armore used a shield.
Using a shield is pretty tiring. Even the bucklers because you need to hold them at arm length given their small coverage. It was recommend to throw it into the face of the opponent if your arm was too tired to use it effectively.

 

[ropetight]

Don't know how much of this is going to be in the game, but it is great that there is some out-of-the-box thinking about combat.
And there are lots of details.

Arrows used in longbow are longer than half a meter and have couple centimeters in diameter - more similar to small javelin than arrows that are used in archery today.
Guys in videos about English longbows are talking about 100+ pounds of force that is needed to draw such bow - don't know how it relates to strength of average man, but it seemed like years of training before you are able just to launch an arrow.
Also, you don't retrieve that arrow after it hits hard target - either it is very deep inside or it shatters.

As those high energy splinters are also deadly - cuirass and similar curved armor was made so it would have maximum deflection angle and also protect limbs and head from splinters (rims around waist, neck and shoulders). It had similar effect on early gunpowder weapons too.

Full plates were expensive and usually worn by nobles, so most of the soldiers used lighter armor as hauberk, cuirass or brigandine (depending on age).
Usually the compromise was made to protect only body parts that are most exposed; leave the legs unprotected but be lighter for marches.

Fascinating stuff - it is almost as people were intelligent in old times too, and not simpletons they are often portrayed to be.

 

[Galdred]

Don't know how much of this is going to be in the game, but it is great that there is some out-of-the-box thinking about combat.
And there are lots of details.

Arrows used in longbow are longer than half a meter and have couple centimeters in diameter - more similar to small javelin than arrows that are used in archery today.
Guys in videos about English longbows are talking about 100+ pounds of force that is needed to draw such bow - don't know how it relates to strength of average man, but it seemed like years of training before you are able just to launch an arrow.
Also, you don't retrieve that arrow after it hits hard target - either it is very deep inside or it shatters.

As those high energy splinters are also deadly - cuirass and similar curved armor was made so it would have maximum deflection angle and also protect limbs and head from splinters (rims around waist, neck and shoulders). It had similar effect on early gunpowder weapons too.

Full plates were expensive and usually worn by nobles, so most of the soldiers used lighter armor as hauberk, cuirass or brigandine (depending on age).
Usually the compromise was made to protect only body parts that are most exposed; leave the legs unprotected but be lighter for marches.

Fascinating stuff - it is almost as people were intelligent in old times too, and not simpletons they are often portrayed to be.

That's interesting, because as a French, the question had been on my mind for ages.
I really like the work they did on Tod's Workshop about it:




And the conclusion is much more nuanced than what you'd find in most thesis (ie, French knights were annihilated by arrows that pierce through their armor like it was papier mâché, or they only lost at Agincourt because of the mud).
Good armor deflects most of the arrows, but lucky hits can still bleed you or even kill you, as not all armor parts were equal.
It was also interesting to see the guy with a lot of longbow practice have trouble aiming for a specific part of the armor at relatively short range. It probably has to do with the physical strain making aiming more difficult than with a crossvbow.

Basically, longbows and plates were not that different from ranged weapons across all times:
They would not destroy the opponent by themselves, but you could not afford to ignore them, hence the knights charging at Agincourt after the English advanced.
Also, regardless of the weapons in use, assaulting stronger positions fortified by the defender, even just with stakes, usually ends up pretty badly for the attacker, armor or not.

We already made bows add STR damage in Zodiac Legion, to represent the fact that the stronger you are, the stronger bow you can use. I tried to make arrows bounce against armor, unless with a critical hit, as they could heavily damage the badly protected areas (or pierce through the holes in the visor).

 

[ropetight]

Same guys I referenced - great content!

Strength limitations and bonuses for larger bows is a must for any kind of realism.
Can't wait till November to see it all in action.

 

[Haba]

Yeah, realism is nice, but... not necessarily always fun.

Maybe just take Fallout power armour approach to it.

 

[Galdred]

Yeah, realism is nice, but... not necessarily always fun.

Maybe just take Fallout power armour approach to it.

You mean, very high damage reduction, but not enough to make you really want to risk taking a critical hit?

I think having strong armor also helps making magic feel stronger, because if you can just cut through plate with a lightsaber firesword instead of having to overpower the armored opponent, it makes magic weapons feel much more powerful.

I was also thinking about having something like in Chaos Gate:
In nuChaos Gate, weapons deal "regular damage" and stun damage. Regular damage is stopped by armor, but not stun damage. Once an opponent's stun HP reach 0, you can execute him regardless of his HP.

 

[Haba]

Health and stamina. The heavier your stuff is, more you drain your stamina. Being hit always drains stamina.

Then maybe tie the crit resistance to stamina, so the more tired you are, the better chance your enemies have finding a weak spot.

I agree with the magic weapons, just like in Fallout. They made the big guns feel powerful. And you savour them more if you've been despairing against the near-invincible enemies before getting them.

 

[Galdred]

What do you think about it. It makes sense (as having the advantage in a fight is not the same as being tired), but it would also be even more of a pain to track, as it would add yet another jauge.

 

[mediocrepoet]

What do you think about it. It makes sense (as having the advantage in a fight is not the same as being tired), but it would also be even more of a pain to track, as it would add yet another jauge.

Imo that makes more sense in an action game like Sekiro. In a tactics game or other RPG, that's usually represented by hits and critical hits. Based on the system you described, I think critical hits already represent outmatching the other side if they're affected by the attacker's and defender's relative skill/experience and not just RNG.

 

[Galdred]

What do you think about it. It makes sense (as having the advantage in a fight is not the same as being tired), but it would also be even more of a pain to track, as it would add yet another jauge.

Imo that makes more sense in an action game like Sekiro. In a tactics game or other RPG, that's usually represented by hits and critical hits. Based on the system you described, I think critical hits already represent outmatching the other side if they're affected by the attacker's and defender's relative skill/experience and not just RNG.

That is true. Also, in a swordfight, "building advantage" over your opponent takes time, but that may also be represented as a single round. I would usually attack without hoping to hit at all, but to force my opponent to get his weapon on the attacked side, so that I can chain another attack elsewhere or close the distance to grapple (and negate the fact that I am a lousy swordman). Or just forcefully bash his weapon out of the way to hit him with the next strike. Both the initial attack and the follow up strike would count as a single weapon attack in a TB RPG.

 

[Nortar]

It's completely unrelated but similar name and release time might play into your hand.