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Vapourware Zodiac Legion - X-COM and dungeons

Galdred

Studio Draconis
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Can't you just make the thrust angled so it aims at the center of the target hex? Right now it just looks like your dude is thrusting perpendicular to the edge of the hex he is facing.

Yes, our artist just tried, and it looks better indeed:


View attachment 36062
Even though the attack stlill looks like a miss that only connects thanks to perspective, it is not too blatantly off the mark
Why is he naked?

Barbarians need no armor (our test character is naked, and everything else is based on him).
How is that different?
He misses less in this case, and it ends with the blade kind of "on" the opponent. But we will change the angle further indeed.

Can't you make sounds for hits?

There are in the game, but we are only testing the new animation with gif at the moment.

Like Freedom Force. :D

:lol: I wonder if there would be a way of making that look tonally/thematically consistent.

I don't think it would fit here, but we need to improve our feedback texts anyway.

Hexagons and walls don't go too well together, as human constructions usually have 2 strong 90° axe while hexagons have 3 60° axes. For a way around this, we decided to use squished hexagons (for isometric look), and alternating on a 3 sequence, with a bit of shift :
Exemple of hexagonal architecture in project Ragnarok :

YrkQ3SH.png
Looks GREAT. Please consider dooing something with dungeon floors...they look too repetitive and dull

It is hard to avoid repetition with tiles (we have like 6 random ones or so). Most rooms have a relatively high props density, or a carpet (and we are working on a wooden floor too) so you shouldn't find such empty areas in the game.

astronomy.png
 

agris

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The chainmail pants has been animated by the AI after the artist draw the first frame only, by mapping it to one of our existing animations:
Do you have a high-level write up of the process, software used, etc? I think this will be the key to adding more weapons/armor variations to sprites in Fallout.
 

Galdred

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The chainmail pants has been animated by the AI after the artist draw the first frame only, by mapping it to one of our existing animations:
Do you have a high-level write up of the process, software used, etc? I think this will be the key to adding more weapons/armor variations to sprites in Fallout.

I tried it with ebsynth, but the quality was just OKish. However, it was painless to install, and it has a correct UI, with a lot of arcane settings.

Then, I switched to some obscure git project based on some research paper here, and it worked much better. However, it was also much harder on my GPU, and the installation process was a pain. I don't even remember exactly the steps I had to follow, but I had to set up a different python venv to make it work with the specific library versions. But the results were much better than any of its alternatives (I tried almost everything, from Google Frame Interpolation for Large Motion, to Flowframes, DAIN AI, Runway...).
You basically train one custom model for each set or animation you plan to generate (you can train for a whole if they have common frames), by providing the initial frames (the one you'll use in the reference animation), and the "modded frames" the one you want to animate following the reference animation. The closer they map to each other the better. I did it with a single frame, but using more cannot hurt!

Then you run the provided script until you are happy with the results. You need to forceclose it when you are, because otherwise, it defaults to 15M epochs (I stopped at 100K max, and 10K is usually enough for small pixel art sprites).
Then you run the generate command with your newly created model + reference animation (as png files), and voila, the program generates the corresponding frames.
 

mediocrepoet

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Codex 2012 Codex+ Now Streaming! MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
All jake and smoke but where the thrusting at?
View attachment 36121
Don't mind the halberd of Mordenkainen. We added something a bit like the "flash" by making the damage text brighter, and start from the HP Bar.

That's way better, not just because it actually seems to contact, but also that there's some feedback around it. I think the only thing I'd change if it wasn't too much trouble is making the sword disappear when it's supposed to be sticking the other guy. Maybe push it behind or into the model?
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
All jake and smoke but where the thrusting at?
View attachment 36121
Don't mind the halberd of Mordenkainen. We added something a bit like the "flash" by making the damage text brighter, and start from the HP Bar.

That's way better, not just because it actually seems to contact, but also that there's some feedback around it. I think the only thing I'd change if it wasn't too much trouble is making the sword disappear when it's supposed to be sticking the other guy. Maybe push it behind or into the model?
The sword disappearing should not be an issue in game, if the z zorting works as intended.
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Our latest Steam news:

Some of it is redundant with the latest codex updates, but we went into more details about combat in armor, and how we will change it in game:

To kill a knight...
Authenticity and historicity in the combat of Zodiac Legion
Greetings, commanders! In this update, we're excited to share with you the forthcoming changes to our combat system and the design objectives that guided these modifications.

Knowledge is power
In designing Zodiac Legion's combat system, our primary goal was to imbue it with a sense of authenticity that aligns with the game's narrative of transitioning from a traditional late medieval era into an age of magic. As combat is a critical aspect of the game, we wanted to make sure that it reflected historical medieval fights as closely as possible. This entails a realistic portrayal of armored combat, shifting away from the individual idiosyncrasies commonly seen in many games and films, where armor doesn't function as expected and provides sub-par levels of protection.

To rectify this, I undertook extensive research, through historical treatises and personal combat. This also allowed me to gain insight from enthusiasts who have spent considerable time studying or practicing these disciplines.
503cb7d4b9f64c99632b3ff7d4f0054c6eb735ab.jpg



The Role of Armor
One crucial fact about late medieval combat is that plate armor was virtually immune to cuts and even thrusts. Recent tests suggest that breastplates were even resistant to arrows fired from a longbow, and injuries were primarily inflicted when less armored body parts were hit (i.e, by "critical hits").



In hand-to-hand combat, armor often necessitated the use of specific techniques to strike an opponent's vulnerable parts or to gain access to them. Techniques like half-swording or the mordschlag employed weapons in ways that deviated considerably from their original intended purpose. Grappling, often a dungeon master's worst nightmare, emerged as a critical skill to facilitate this, as the protection offered by armor also made it possible to go much more up-close against an opponent.
Interestingly, the classic D&D armor system aimed to depict this. Initially, I believed damage reduction was a superior mechanism, but understanding that most attacks should be virtually 100% reduced by armor, I now appreciate the need for recognizing the many poorly protected (or completely unprotected) areas on most armor.

4143c880dd2004250cc54f66032fcd6141d628d5.png


Armor and Attacks in the game
To more effectively represent heavy armor within the game's context, we're considering two distinct methods.
The first approach involves regular attacks only inflicting "impact damage" on heavily armored characters, with heavier weapons causing more of this damage than balanced ones. To inflict significant damage, a thrusting or impact weapon would require a critical hit.
The second approach involves introducing special targeted attacks, varying by weapon but capable of achieving one of the following:
Reducing the opponent's defense against future attacks by attempting to seize their weapon arm
Stunning the opponent through a forceful blow to the head
Forcing the opponent to the ground
Thrusting at the target's least protected areas

Both strategies will also help differentiate between weapons and armor types. The difficulty of hitting a weak point, and the consequent reduction in protection, will depend on the armor type. In contrast, the effects of critical hits or the special attacks available will depend on the weapon type.

Armored Teamwork
Most of these techniques would be impractical to perform within a formation as grappling leaves both fighters very exposed. However, team support already plays an essential part in our game rules, as characters aid their teammates in both attack and defense, unless this support is negated by the presence of other characters. Therefore, we don't anticipate significant changes to this aspect.
Taking teamwork into account, some of the special attacks may leave both the attacker and the defender with the "exposed" condition. Additionally, "pushing contests" between formations, a common feature in ancient and medieval foot combat, could isolate opponents, allowing your second line to engage or finish them off with minimal effort.
47ba7c292536863d5bd7873f426d333139f5130e.gif


What about magic?
The idea of magic becoming more available as the game progresses is one of the reasons we wanted authentic combat in the first place. It’s a game-changer that opens up new tactical options. While armor provides excellent protection against physical attacks, it offers less defense against magical powers. Some spells might bypass armor completely, striking directly at the enemy's life force, making magical artifacts and protection incredibly valuable. On the other hand, magic can also enhance the capabilities of your mundane warriors by punishing enemies for maintaining their formation with a fireball, and leveraging telekinesis to pull your target into your own formation.
b7c9a03017faa2d211711674e3dad347914a7cfa.gif



Authentic assets
A good part of the work of the past weeks has been focused on using AI to improve our animation workflow by drafting frames of new elements from our existing ones. That should allow us to add a few missing armor types, like gambesons or brigandines.
It's also easier to add new animations by first only making them for a single set (here, a "naked" barbarian), and then generating an initial draft of all the variations needed to accommodate our existing sets.
The animations we're working on implementing include making opponents prone, reloading a crossbow, or thrusting/half-swording:

a3f41945058212105b4b6ecbf217c287886a22d0.gif
41248998a8a75a7dd4c1d7aa1f6575d4a87de42a.gif
dc3e999c405312af875091bec7a35400c7e27993.gif




Conclusion

Thank you for your attention. As always, we're eager to hear your feedback about the planned changes, and what else you would like us to talk about.
May the stars align in your favor.


The conclusion regarding the way I think medieval combat worked is that Blood Bowl might be the most accurate representation of it (without the ball, but with weapons added):
Staying in formation was quite important, regardless of what some historians seem to believe (it is a debated thesis, as many supposed that medieval warfare was a Hollywoodesque series of 1v1 duels, but modern historians like Verbruggen made a very convincing argument that it would make zero sense), and the best way to deal with opponent was to isolate and knock them down, before fouling them (well, the latter part might not apply, but it remains similar).
 

Harthwain

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Staying in formation was quite important, regardless of what some historians seem to believe
It was important since the ancient times. I mean, we had the phalanx (Greek and Macedonian), front rank rotation (Romans), the testudo (Romans)...

It is hard to believe that people in the Medieval period didn't have any kind of organization whatsoever. One could make an argument that they fought in loose formations, like the Gauls and such, after which it came down to moment-to-moment action, but I'd say it also depends on what kind of soldier we're talking about (levies pulled away from their farms will obviously won't fight as well as professional soldiers with plenty of experience under their belt). And there are examples of formations in this period, too, such as a shield wall employed by Saxons.
 

Galdred

Studio Draconis
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Staying in formation was quite important, regardless of what some historians seem to believe
It was important since the ancient times. I mean, we had the phalanx (Greek and Macedonian), front rank rotation (Romans), the testudo (Romans)...

It is hard to believe that people in the Medieval period didn't have any kind of organization whatsoever. One could make an argument that they fought in loose formations, like the Gauls and such, after which it came down to moment-to-moment action, but I'd say it also depends on what kind of soldier we're talking about (levies pulled away from their farms will obviously won't fight as well as professional soldiers with plenty of experience under their belt). And there are examples of formations in this period, too, such as a shield wall employed by Saxons.
Indeed, but some military historians seemed to be of the opinion that knights were full retard until Englishmen put this retardation to an end.

Charles William Chadwick Oman said:
In France those absurd perversions of the art of war which covered themselves under the name of chivalry were more omnipotent than in any other country of Europe. The strength of the armies of Philip and John of Valois was composed of a fiery and undisciplined aristocracy which imagined itself to be the most efficient military force in the world, but which was in reality little removed from an armed mob.

That said, it is true that maintaining formation was very difficult because of the lack of cohesion within knightly armies, but that had more to do with the fact that they did not form consistent units and weren't trained together (the whole point of knightly armies were to be able to protect vast arrays of lands with a minimal force, not to engage in clashes between nations). But that doesn't mean formation was not important, rather that it was very very difficult to enforce it. That is why the rules of the Templars threathened anyone who would break rank to ride faster than the bannerman with exclusion from the Temple.

Regarding Agincourt, Sir Jean de Bueil wrote the following, in old French:

« Une aultre bataille y eust en France, nommée Agincourt, que le roy Henry
d’Engleterre gaigna parce qu’il garda l’alayne de ses gens et encores dit que la
nuit il les fist rafreschir ; et les Françoys firent le contraire. […] le lendemain,
marcherent à travers d’ung grant gueret à l’encontre de leurs ennemiz et les
allerent requerir bien loing, tellement que, quant ce fust au combatre, ilz
assemblerent si très peu de gens et les ungs après les aultres, et estoient hors
d’alaine, qui furent desconfiz. Et, pour ce, une bataille à pié ne doit point
marcher ; mais doit tousjours attendre ses ennemiz pié coy. Car, quant ilz
marchent, ilz ne sont pas tous d’une force, ilz ne pevent pas tenir ordonnance.
[…] Une puissance qui marche devant une autre puissance est desconfite, si Dieu
ne lui fait grace. »

He basically says that French having to attack at Agincourt threw their formation in disarray, and made the knights exhausted. He infers that infantry should never attack, but always wait for the opponent. So military writers of the time recognized the importance of staying in formation, but it seemed impossible to achieve in attack(and on foot) under most circumstances(he says that the attacker needs a divine intervention to prevail), even though there are a few examples of such (mostly from the Swiss, but then, we are moving into drilled regiments territory.
However, the author clearly states that only when it comes to infantry. Mounted knights did manage to stay in formation, if the charge went well.

Levies were the reason knight charges were usually so successful, as they were very unlikely to hold formation. But even as soon as Hastings and Bouvines, well organized infantry could stand a cavalry charge.
So my understanding is that the first part of infantry clashes was indeed meant at disrupting the opposing formation, as in the good old ancient times, and once it was done, isolated warriors would be mopped up.
 
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