Mass Effect - 2-minute video of a full conversation.

[doctor_kaz]

Combat will probably be a liability, just like every other Bioware RPG since at least Baldurs Gate 2.

Art direction is mediocre. Environments are bare and boring looking. So are generic sci-fie aliens and ships. A big disappointment since art direction in Jade Empire was excellent and the only appealing part of the game's visuals

Exploration will be practically non-existent again with linear railroad areas like Jade Empire and Kotor. Best you can hope for probably is hub-and-spoke semilinearity like Kotor and NWN.

Dialog is basically Kotor or Jade Empire, but sentences have been replaced by short phrases. Apparently, this superficial change is Teh Revo1utionary!!1!!

Kotor without Star Wars seems like the most accurate description that I have seen.

 

[Dark Matter]

Exploration will be practically non-existent again with linear railroad areas like Jade Empire and Kotor. Best you can hope for probably is hub-and-spoke semilinearity like Kotor and NWN.

BS. Sure, individual areas look fairly linear, but have you seen the galaxy map and the number of places you can visit? The game seems to have a greater sense of exploration than nearly every other game I've played. A game with lots of small but unique/different areas has a greater sense of exploration and discovery than one huge, open-ended gameworld which is basically the same throughout(like Daggerfall).

 

[galsiah]

...For one thing, the game actually contains RPing elements...

Does it? Please elaborate.

Your options:
(1) Yes.
(2) What?
(3) Why?
(4) This sort of thing.
(5) kthnxbi.

Please pick an option, and I'll tell you what you meant to say.

 

[Dark Matter]

...For one thing, the game actually contains RPing elements...

Does it? Please elaborate.

Your options:
(1) Yes.
(2) What?
(3) Why?
(4) This sort of thing.
(5) kthnxbi.

Please pick an option, and I'll tell you what you meant to say.

Bioware games usually always give you multiple paths to take in individual quests depending on whether or not you're role-playing as a good/evil character. I have no reason to believe Mass Effect will be any different.

 

[Futile Rhetoric]

Bioware games usually always give you multiple paths to take in individual quests depending on whether or not you're role-playing as a good/evil character. I have no reason to believe Mass Effect will be any different.

Good? Evil? Pah! Such antiquated ideas. It's all about being extreme!

 

[bryce77]

instead of a timer counting down how many hours u play i wanna mod in a counter for how many collars i grab

 

[galsiah]

Bioware games usually always give you multiple paths to take in individual quests depending on whether or not you're role-playing as a good/evil character. I have no reason to believe Mass Effect will be any different.

That wasn't an available option.

Multiple paths and consequences are great. Walking them with a blindfold isn't. Touting a system that cripples a player's ability to know what decision he's making before he makes it, is rather odd - if it's supposedly an "RPG element".
In fairness it's an interesting concept - but that's no argument to put it in a game. If the best they can do with the interesting concept is to make sure that anything the PC says actually has the substantive content of one short phrase, it needs to be put away. It also has design implications for PC decisions - subtle shades of grey are pretty much out as an option, since you can't always convey the subtlety/distinction in a short one-liner.

It might perhaps be a good game, but I don't think it deserves credit for touting a dialogue system just because dialogue is more RPG-like than FPS-like. They're touting something which sucks.

 

[Dark Matter]

Bioware games usually always give you multiple paths to take in individual quests depending on whether or not you're role-playing as a good/evil character. I have no reason to believe Mass Effect will be any different.

That wasn't an available option.

Multiple paths and consequences are great. Walking them with a blindfold isn't. Touting a system that cripples a player's ability to know what decision he's making before he makes it, is rather odd - if it's supposedly an "RPG element".
In fairness it's an interesting concept - but that's no argument to put it in a game. If the best they can do with the interesting concept is to make sure that anything the PC says actually has the substantive content of one short phrase, it needs to be put away. It also has design implications for PC decisions - subtle shades of grey are pretty much out as an option, since you can't always convey the subtlety/distinction in a short one-liner.

It might perhaps be a good game, but I don't think it deserves credit for touting a dialogue system just because dialogue is more RPG-like than FPS-like. They're touting something which sucks.

Ok? Not that I disagree with what you said, but that was just basically a pointless rant about why the dialogue system sucks, not about how the game lacks RPing elements.

And BTW, you're wrong about the "no shades of grey" comment. The game seems to do a much better job at this than previous Bio games. For example, consider the bartender scene in the E3 2006 demo. You have options to blackmail or even threaten the bartender by pointing a gun at him, which might seem wrong/evil, but overall it's for the greater good. In KOTOR, the motive behind that exact same action would've likely been one that is entirely malicious/evil in nature just cause. Even the choices that you see in the X06 demo seem to be well justified from what I can tell. Overall, it's a huge step up from what you got in previous Bioware games where the motives for nearly all choices were "cause I'm a goody-two shoes" or "cause I'm an evil/mean SOB". It's funny how all the Bioware haters on here choose not to acknowledge this improvement and instead find something else to bitch about (like the fact that he grabbed Garrus' collar).

 

[doctor_kaz]

Exploration will be practically non-existent again with linear railroad areas like Jade Empire and Kotor. Best you can hope for probably is hub-and-spoke semilinearity like Kotor and NWN.

BS. Sure, individual areas look fairly linear, but have you seen the galaxy map and the number of places you can visit? The game seems to have a greater sense of exploration than nearly every other game I've played. A game with lots of small but unique/different areas has a greater sense of exploration and discovery than one huge, open-ended gameworld which is basically the same throughout(like Daggerfall).

I guess that it remains to be seen how big these areas are and how unique they are. You can have 25 planets out there, but if each of them is only one or two maps big, then it's the same thing as having the same old limited hub-and-spoke system as Jade Empire had. The last few Bioware games have had pretty dull level/dungeon design and the map shown earlier in this thread isn't very promising.

At least it sounds like the role-playing system will have more meat to it this time around than Jade Empire did. Hopefullly there will be more robust inventory too.

 

[galsiah]

Ok? Not that I disagree with what you said, but that was just basically a pointless rant about why the dialogue system sucks, not about how the game lacks RPing elements.

No - it's saying that "We've got 'genre element X'" [which sucks in genre X terms] shouldn't get any points for focus on that genre. It's meaningless to say that you've got "RPG elements" if you've featured those elements in a manner which does nothing to further RPG style gameplay.
I would say that knowing-what-you're-going-to-say-before-you-say-it, is an essential feature of dialogue as an RPG element. Of course that hasn't been spelt out in the past - since it was a fair assumption that "dialogue" included the ability to choose what to say.

And BTW, you're wrong about the "no shades of grey" comment.

I would be if I'd said there would be no shades of grey in the game. I didn't. I said that there couldn't be subtle shades of grey in PC decisions - as in having the option to do X and Y, which are differentiated by [subtle-hard-to-describe-feature-Z].
Fair enough that you interpreted it as you did - perhaps I wasn't clear.

 

[Claw]

Where do all the retards that joined June '07 come from?

I'd love to discuss the topic, but gamespot works like crap for me today.

 

[galsiah]

I'd love to discuss the topic, but gamespot works like crap for me today.

If you're referring to the 20 minute version, be assured that gamespot has your back.

 

[Dark Matter]

No - it's saying that "We've got 'genre element X'" [which sucks in genre X terms] shouldn't get any points for focus on that genre. It's meaningless to say that you've got "RPG elements" if you've featured those elements in a manner which does nothing to further RPG style gameplay.
I would say that knowing-what-you're-going-to-say-before-you-say-it, is an essential feature of dialogue as an RPG element. Of course that hasn't been spelt out in the past - since it was a fair assumption that "dialogue" included the ability to choose what to say.

Sure, the new dialog system is faulty, but I really think you're over exaggarating. It's certainly not flawed to the point that you're just forced to randomly pick a response because you don't have the slightest clue what each of them implies; that's not true. You still have a fairly good idea of the choice you're making, it's just that the exact details of your response/action when making that choice are unclear. The RPing aspect is still there, the dialog system hinders it, but it certainly doesn't destroy it.

 

[JoKa]

No - it's saying that "We've got 'genre element X'" [which sucks in genre X terms] shouldn't get any points for focus on that genre. It's meaningless to say that you've got "RPG elements" if you've featured those elements in a manner which does nothing to further RPG style gameplay.
I would say that knowing-what-you're-going-to-say-before-you-say-it, is an essential feature of dialogue as an RPG element. Of course that hasn't been spelt out in the past - since it was a fair assumption that "dialogue" included the ability to choose what to say.

Sure, the new dialog system is faulty, but I really think you're over exaggarating. It's certainly not flawed to the point that you're just forced to randomly pick a response because you don't have the slightest clue what each of them implies; that's not true. You still have a fairly good idea of the choice you're making, it's just that the exact details of your response/action when making that choice are unclear. The RPing aspect is still there, the dialog system hinders it, but it certainly doesn't destroy it.

why have something that hinders it AT ALL?

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

Looks like Mass Effect has breasts and thong girls

Thank you for contacting the Entertainment Software Rating Board (ESRB). We are always interested to hear from those who use the ratings, and appreciate your taking the time to contact us with your thoughts and comments.

The ESRB does its best to ensure that the rating process is meticulous and thorough. At least three specially trained raters review actual footage from each game submitted to the ESRB. The raters examine the game's most extreme content, evaluate its context and overall intensity, and use their own good judgment to recommend the rating they believe will be most helpful to consumers.

In the case of Mass Effect the raters determined that the M (Mature 17+) rating with content descriptors for Blood, Partial Nudity, Sexual Themes, Violence was most appropriate. According to the publishers submission for Mass Effect, there are two non-interactive videos that depict a discreet love scene between the main character and his romantic love interests. Breast profiles can be seen during one of the videos. There is a scene in a bar where female characters wear thong underwear. This type of content is likely to have contributed to the rating and content descriptors ultimately assigned by the raters.

ESRB does its best to provide reliable information about a game's content, but we also encourage parents and all consumers to do their own independent research, via game packaging, websites, magazine reviews, and other sources, to see if a game is appropriate for their family. Ratings can only be a guide and we hope that you will continue to use the system.

We hope information is helpful, and thank you for writing.

Regards,

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Now all it needs is DMX, dual desert eagles, and ever other word being "fuck" and we've got Herve's PoS 2 (the real PoS sequel all the fans want).

In other news....it has been surmised that there will be lesbian romances with one of the alien babes. Wonderful.....ugh...

 

[sportforredneck]

At least BioWare has stopped beating around the bush with romances and have you fuck them. I'm sure it'll be something classy, like doggie style.

 

[Dark Matter]

why have something that hinders it AT ALL?

It's a dumb feature, I never disagreed with that. Hopefully, the fanboys will see past the hype and realize how it cripples the game when they experience it firsthand, and hopefully, they'll get rid of it for Mass Effect 2 and 3.

 

[PseudoIntellectual Snob]

Dialog is basically Kotor or Jade Empire, but sentences have been replaced by short phrases. Apparently, this superficial change is Teh Revo1utionary!!1!!

The application may be shit, all right. But the system is, in itself, revolutionary. The gun isn't guilty of the murder, as you surely know.

Leaving aside all discussions about how crappy this game is going to be (a point of view i do not find in fault, in any case) i think the dialogue system in itself is not bad at all, at least as the foundations of something that should have been done long time ago. Guilt to the developers who think the Medium is just a Market, and end users who think the Medium is just a form of Entertainment. Games more inclined to storytelling (and should there be other kind?) could learn a thing of two, and maybe use it as a starting point for giving a true dramatic style to their own games - something this genre, and others, should once and for all begin striving for instead of stoping in all kind of half-assed abstractions.

Good camera work, scenery, and character expressions can add layers of atmosphere and depth that, by their own nature, exist beyond the reach of, as good or as bad as it may be, writing. The only way you can consider the dialogue to be as Kotor is to also consider a conversation is nothing but an exchange of phrases. Now, if such is the case i can only be thankful you are not a figure of importance in the dramatic arts.

Multiple paths and consequences are great. Walking them with a blindfold isn't. Touting a system that cripples a player's ability to know what decision he's making before he makes it, is rather odd - if it's supposedly an "RPG element".
In fairness it's an interesting concept - but that's no argument to put it in a game.

The RPing aspect is still there, the dialog system hinders it, but it certainly doesn't destroy it.

Both would be arguments if you choose to ask "Why?" and the PC reacts as if you had chosen "Now i will slowly eviscerate you, rape your woman, and sell your kids into slavery." If you choose "Why?" and the reaction is just an extended exposition of "why?" where is the problem? As far as i know, there is not a single cRPG, other than maybe some very specific points in Torment, where the actual wording does matter. The options are just verbose ways to choose:

*Change Topic*
*Initiate Combat*
*Raise Reward*
*Accept Quest*
*Reject Quest*
*Choose Later*
*Ask the GM to roll for some skill*
*End Dialogue*

True Roleplaying! And we are lucky if we even get as many...

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

At least BioWare has stopped beating around the bush with romances and have you fuck them. I'm sure it'll be something classy, like doggie style.

You could fuck all three elf women in Shadows of Amn and that drow too.

 

[Micmu]

You could fuck all three elf women in Shadows of Amn and that drow too.

Viconia or that Drow chick in Underdark? That was actually more like a rape (on you) rather than romance. Now that was much better. :twisted:

 

[aries202]

The news about the discrete sexscene and the girls in thongs have raised some commotion over at the Bioware forums. It got very heated, so I made a comment that ended up saying that if you don't like the game, then don't buy it.

I wouldn't have minded knowing about the discrete sexscene and the girls in thongs in bars. I just fear the real reason behind why Bioware didn't give away this tiny little spoiler (as opposed to other and bigger spoilers) simply was and is out of fear. Fear of the game not selling. However, I do believe the sales figures for GTA:SA went up dramatically when it was known that there wwre sexscenes in the game : The thing is: SEX sells. Always has. Always will.

And the game, ME, is afterall rated M=17+ by the ESRB...

 

[Misterhamper]

Is it coming for PC?

 

[psycojester]

Viconia or that Drow chick in Underdark? That was actually more like a rape (on you) rather than romance.

its impossible to use a vagina to rape a man, it just doesn't work

 

[Volourn]

Have you tried a scientific experiment to prove that theory? I certainly doubt it.

 

[Futile Rhetoric]

Have you tried a scientific experiment to prove that theory? I certainly doubt it.

I have. In my laboratory. While wearing a lab coat.

Oh, and I have a rectal thermometer. And if you don't believe me, I'll shove it up your ass.