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Mass Effect - 2-minute video of a full conversation.

galsiah

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PseudoIntellectual Snob said:
Galsiah said:
Multiple paths and consequences are great. Walking them with a blindfold isn't. Touting a system that cripples a player's ability to know what decision he's making before he makes it, is rather odd - if it's supposedly an "RPG element".
In fairness it's an interesting concept - but that's no argument to put it in a game.
Dark Matter said:
The RPing aspect is still there, the dialog system hinders it, but it certainly doesn't destroy it.
Both would be arguments if you choose to ask "Why?" and the PC reacts as if you had chosen "Now i will slowly eviscerate you, rape your woman, and sell your kids into slavery." If you choose "Why?" and the reaction is just an extended exposition of "why?" where is the problem? As far as i know, there is not a single cRPG, other than maybe some very specific points in Torment, where the actual wording does matter. The options are just verbose ways to choose:
*Change Topic*
*Initiate Combat*
*Raise Reward*
*Accept Quest*
*Reject Quest*
*Choose Later*
*Ask the GM to roll for some skill*
*End Dialogue*
True Roleplaying! And we are lucky if we even get as many...
The importance isn't only in the substance of what you say (which this system guarantees cannot be nuanced). It's also in how you say it - in most RPGs the player can read what the PC is going to say ahead of time, and assess its impact and likely chance of success / implications. Try classifying most PC responses in Fallout / PST / ... in similar terms to those you gave above. You'll fail with any small/medium list, and even with a large list, you'll lose much of the relevant detail. It works for games like Morrowind/Oblivion because the PC extremely rarely has to say more than the trivial examples you gave.

Pretty much the only reason to pre-write all the PC dialogue is to allow specific situational details to come into play. Importantly, the implications of the presentation don't need to be explicitly represented in any gameplay mechanic - they're just a form of complex, nuanced feedback to allow the player to make reasoned predictions about likely outcomes.
By using a generic PC response, you're needlessly crippling the richness/depth of the dialogue. It might have the same functional inputs/outputs, but the player can't assess them in the same way relative to the game world. He's blinded to any subtlety that could exist. If any subtleties do exist, the player will be surprised by the content of his own character's statements: more conducive to thinking "I'm giving instructions to a performing monkey" than "I'm playing a character".

The dialogue aspect of gameplay gets trivialized, becoming merely functional - with all the inherent value of inventory management. If there is any interest in the PC's statements/actions, it's because the player *didn't* want/expect them to happen. If the long version of *why?* really does have no content beyond *why?* - it's a dull waste of time; if it does have content beyond *why?* the player's flying blindfold.

The only reason to trivialize dialogue in this sense is when you're empowering it in another sense. For example, procedural dialogue systems can be much more versatile, at the expense of specific situational nuance. That might be a reasonable tradeoff in some cases.

In ME, the tradeoff isn't providing any dialogue gameplay - it's speeding things up, cutting down on reading, and giving a more cinematic (no - not a good thing) experience. Things are happening quickly - since the player has precious little to read, and therefore very limited information to inform his decision. The player can remain interested in seeing a load of relatively surprising stuff - since he has very little control over it.

That doesn't make it a bad feature for an action game, but it shouldn't get it any credit for "RPG elements" when its implementation demonstrates a focus on action and a cinematic experience above careful consideration and player control.
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
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Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
aries202 said:
Misterhamper said:
Is it coming for PC?

:(

Sorry, no - not at this time.

It is an Xbox 360 exclusive right now. Maybe someday, though ;)

That's great, I can wait next year to upgrade my PC or something. :)
 
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Edward_R_Murrow said:
sportforredneck said:
At least BioWare has stopped beating around the bush with romances and have you fuck them. I'm sure it'll be something classy, like doggie style.

You could fuck all three elf women in Shadows of Amn and that drow too.

But now it's in 3D, they'll be treated as heroes of the adult games genre.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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"That doesn't make it a bad feature for an action game, but it shouldn't get it any credit for "RPG elements" when its implementation demonstrates a focus on action and a cinematic experience above careful consideration and player control"

It's an Action RPG. it has elements of btioha ction and role-playing. Duh. How many shooter/action games do you see with dialogue skillz? I doubt very many if at all.

Let's go over this again - ME is an ACTION RPG.

It's not complicated science, dudes.
 
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Volourn said:
Let's go over this again - ME is an ACTION RPG.
The Codex is letting me down. Many threads are devoted to bitching about games like Fallout 3 and Mass Effect, rather than devoted to something worthwhile. Everyone knows you don't want the game, there doesn't need to be 10,000 threads that say the same shit on it[mostly about Fallout 3 on that one].
 
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Volourn said:
Sport, it's real simple. The internet is always more focuse don the negative. No matter what the subject, and no matter the forum, it's basically a lot of negativty. We're all guilty of this including me.

I'm not new to the internet.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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Then why did you profess that you were 'let down'. That shows ignoance and naivity.
 
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Volourn said:
Then why did you profess that you were 'let down'. That shows ignoance and naivity.
I expected the RPGCodex to talk about RPGs. Obviously very naive of me to expect them to discuss something that's apart of the website's name.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
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Action RPG.

Game over.

RPG RPG RPG RPG talk in RPG Discussion.
 
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Volourn said:
Action RPG.

Game over.

RPG RPG RPG RPG talk in RPG Discussion.
Do you even keep track of what you say? Because I'm not even sure what the hell you're doing now.
 

Texas Red

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sportforredneck, you play the role of Shepard, therefore MA = RPG.

You phayle.
 
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The Walkin' Dude said:
sportforredneck, you play the role of Shepard, therefore MA = RPG.

First of all I never said it wasn't an RPG. What I was saying is that there should be discussions on RPGs, rather than bitchfests on games that are diluted.

Secondly, needs more originality.
 
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Edward_R_Murrow said:
How the hell did this thread get turned into a discussion of what kind of game Mass Effect is when the new soil erosion, alien sex scenes, is in this thread?
Because Kirk has been nailing aliens for years.
 

Claw

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Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
galsiah said:
If you're referring to the 20 minute version, be assured that gamespot has your back.
I wasn't, and no it didn't. Gamespot simply didn't work properly yesterday.

Anyway..


I don't get this dialogue system at all. I hear shit about how it's "natural" and like a real conversation, and I don't see anything supporting that claim. In fact, so far the ability to interrupt the NPCs looks like nothing more than the ability to do the same in games like Gothic, except you can already choose your dialogue option while they are talking.

One thing about real conversations is that I have to think about what I'm gonna say next all the time, and frankly every time a dialogue keeps going on and on in an RPG, even going back and forth between the PC and an NPC without my input, it takes me out of it. I'm not participating, I'm consuming. If they want to create more "real" conversations, they ought to implement Fahrenheit-like controls, where NOT choosing an option fast enough also has a consequence. I can easily see situations where a pause might look suspicious.

I've thought about making dialogues in RPGs more natural myself, and it's got nothing to do with what I see in ME. Oh wait, is that a forced conversation? That was one of my first pet peeves in Gothic. Fucking NPC forcing a conversation and I couldn't back out of it! There was no "leave me alone" option, so I had to endure the conversation as planned by the developers. The first thing I'd do is make it so when an NPCs wants to talk to me, the NPC simply waves, shouts or walks up and talks to me. And then I can decide to respond or not. I'd let players switch the dialogue interface on and off during a conversation so you could even walk around, or of course leave an NPC standing. One funny thing about Gothic was were several instances where you would follow an NPC around, and have a lengthy dialogue at the start or destination, but of course not while moving.

Also, WTF does realtime dialogue mean? From what I've seen so far, the dialogue usually goes like this: NPC talks, PC response, NPC talks etc. That isn't new. That's not special.

Oh, and the Normandy gave me a terrible Unreal2 flashback. Bad times.
 
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Edward_R_Murrow said:
sportforredneck said:
Because Kirk has been nailing aliens for years.

Come on...it's still one of the most shameless attempts at adding sex appeal to a game I've seen in a long time.
Making an entire race of alien female hookers is shameless. Having a sex scene with them is just icing on the cake.

Plus...did Kirk grab collars?
Picard may have.
 

Dark Matter

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Claw said:
Also, WTF does realtime dialogue mean?
I was wondering the same thing. The dialogue system basically looks exactly the same as what I've seen in previous Bio games, only difference is they have a fancy new interface and the choices of responses are paraphrased/shortened and your PC speaks. And the "being able to interrupt NPCs" thing is seriously exaggerated; as someone else mentioned, you basically get to "interrupt" them once they've made their point and just have a few useless words left to say. I doubt if it'lll even have any real impact on NPCs reactions to you.

The first thing I'd do is make it so when an NPCs wants to talk to me, the NPC simply waves, shouts or walks up and talks to me. And then I can decide to respond or not.
One of the previews of ME claimed that the game doesn't force you into conversations and that they'll instead do what you mentioned. Yet, nothing they've shown of the game so far supports this.
 

psycojester

Arbiter
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Kirk just got his shirt ripped and punched people in the face, he was old school.
 

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