What cRPG has the most ridiculously (unnecessarily) elaborate mechanics?

[Outmind]

It is no surprise that people on the codex like depth - in story, character interaction, combat and general game mechanics etc. What game in your opinion brings the latter two to an extreme, but with favorable results?

On the other hand, have you ever encountered a game that had so many unnecessary options however that just bogs the whole experience down without necessarily adding to one's enjoyment of its finer strategic aspects?

Having recently played Neo scavenger a bit, i can't help but think that if the combat were a little less elaborate that the game would have been more enjoyable.

 

[tred]

i can't help but think that if the combat were a little less elaborate

 

[MicoSelva]

That would be Another War, which has a fully-fledged RPG system, but is unplayable due to horribad combat, so all that design is a total waste.

 

[GlutenBurger]

I really can't think of any game with complexity that I'd deem excessive. Maybe I've always seen "unnecessary" complexity as another type of challenge to overcome in a game. I don't know. Maybe I should think about it again when I'm sober.

That would be Another War, which has a fully-fledged RPG system, but is unplayable due to horribad combat, so all that design is a total waste.

I forgot this existed, but now that you've reminded me I'm determined to dig my copy out from wherever it is and play it to the end this time.

Tomorrow. If I find it.

 

[Zetor]

I liked Realms of Arkania well enough ('good for what it is'), but their attempt at replicating the p&p DSA mechanics was basically the definition of creating a needlessly-overcomplicated system where most of the skills/spells you can get are useless anyway. The level-up system was particularly stupid.

While most of that criticism is probably better directed towards the pen&paper DSA system in the first place, the ROA designers are ultimately responsible for not taking an axe to it and creating something better suited for a CRPG.

 

[Excidium]

I'd never seen anything in CRPGs that I'd call overly complex, just plain shit.

 

[Outmind]

Alright then, I've replaced overly complex with overly elaborate. That is what I meant anyway, so poor choice of wording on my part.

 

[Decado]

I'd never seen anything in CRPGs that I'd call overly complex, just plain shit.

Same here. The only thing that I can think of that approaches this complaint is something like RPGs that have elements or systems that you never have to use. For example, all of the salves in Dragon Age were completely useless. I've beaten the game on nightmare several times and never once felt like I needed to use one of them.

ETA: Also, I've never once used trap-making. Absolutely never.

 

[deuxhero]

Any real time with pause game.

No matter how deep the system you start out with is, it's just a giant clusterfuck as soon as combat starts.

 

[Lhynn]

I'd never seen anything in CRPGs that I'd call overly complex, just plain shit.

Same here. The only thing that I can think of that approaches this complaint is something like RPGs that have elements or systems that you never have to use. For example, all of the salves in Dragon Age were completely useless. I've beaten the game on nightmare several times and never once felt like I needed to use one of them.

ETA: Also, I've never once used trap-making. Absolutely never.

Thats more an issue about character building than salves being useless, suboptimal builds and casual players will need them.

 

[Decado]

Perhaps. It just strikes me as ridiculous that you can play through an entire game on the hardest difficulty (and I'm talking about doing dumb shit on purpose, like rolling a Shapeshifter) and still not need a key mechanic like salves.

 

[DraQ]

What a weird question.

I don't think this sort of unnecessary complexity generally occurs in games, quite the contrary, if an option feels bad it's usually due to half-assed implementation, which would be fixed by technically introducing *more* complexity, working in completely off the wall manner (which again isn't the problem of superfluous complexity, but of making completely wrong shit), or arsing player with micromanaging shit of no consequence that could be automated (meaning the problem lies not in mechanics but interface or intermediate layers between those two).

As of now the only case that comes to mind are Oblivion's minigames, but they are clearly the cases of #2 and #3 mentioned above, so not necessarily too much complexity, but a completely wrong (in case of speechcraft) and unnecessarily bothersome implementation of stuff (both minigames) - replacing them with more complex but sensible and interesting implementation would definitely help (as much as the game could be helped, at least).

 

[TripJack]

On the other hand, have you ever encountered a game that had so many unnecessary options however that just bogs the whole experience down without necessarily adding to one's enjoyment of its finer strategic aspects?

NetHack

 

[Fowyr]

Unnecessarily for actual game? These would be RoA and Megatraveller. But keep in mind that they supposedly were used as character generator for tabletop sessions as well.

 

[aleph]

Any real time with pause game.

No matter how deep the system you start out with is, it's just a giant clusterfuck as soon as combat starts.

You are one of those guys who never figured out what the space bar does in Baldur's Gate, aren't you?

 

[theSavant]

Though not 100% ontopic but many 1st or 3rd Person RPGs feature elaborated weapon combat but don't deliver appropriate area-specific impact on the opponent. Ultimately worthless after you realize that no matter how you swing your weapon it doesn't change a fuck on the damage being made, e.g. Morrowind, Oblivion, Gothic3, Two Worlds...

The amount of work going into this is huge, using motion capturing systems etc. More recent games though show more impact or specific damage receiving areas, but a lot of games would work just without displaying weapons at all, like e.g. Lands of Lore III, Might Magic X, Grimrock... where you only see silhouettes.

 

[Tigranes]

Nothing, really, except small isolated examples like certain crafting systems (NWN2?).

 

[NotAGolfer]

Can't think of anything either.
But there are some games that are quite complex and because I didn't like them I also didn't bother to fully understand them.
For example I didn't care for Dragon Age's story and the trash mobs annoyed me so much that I just ignored the subtleties of the combat system (I know they are there).
I gave up after my first time losing to some undead assault in front of some castle and never played it again. I just didn't care anymore, it was a drag to get to that point anyway, almost fell asleep when reading and listening to all that generic fantasy story filler lore.

While being very complex the Realms of Arkania series on the other hand never bored me for some reason. They did a splendid job capturing the PnP feel and since the world felt alive and my party really needed a wide range of skills (lots of skillchecks involved, always great to have those in abundance) it all made sense and nothing felt redundant or needlessly elaborate.
Sure, some skills and spells are not implemented,but since the games are quite forgiving about wasted skill points you can level Horse Riding as much as you like and still survive it ... it's even more fun that way because the game becomes more difficult again.
The interface in the German disk version could be better though...

Which reminds me of Wasteland. I tried out that game recently and the controls are much too elaborate for my taste to have any semblance of fun with it. Do counterintuitive and cumbersome game controls qualify?

 

[dryan]

Looting in Dragon Age 2 was too complicated.

Spoiler

 

[V_K]

I'd call Arcanum's character system needlessly cumbersome - with skills, spells and tech disciplines all using different advancement mechanics. However it doesn't come anywhere near complex.

 

[Surf Solar]

I'd call Arcanum's character system needlessly cumbersome - with skills, spells and tech disciplines all using different advancement mechanics.

Isn't that the whole fucking point of it?

 

[deuxhero]

Any real time with pause game.

No matter how deep the system you start out with is, it's just a giant clusterfuck as soon as combat starts.

You are one of those guys who never figured out what the space bar does in Baldur's Gate, aren't you?

You have no real control over movement, which kills 99% of tactical options. Being able to pause to tell someone to run away does jack shit when they take the longest path possible and the enemy moves at the same time. In combat movement in a RTWP game, movement is either pure cheese (ranged attack kiting enemies without the AI to realize trying to melee you is pointless) or completely pointless. Rarely, if ever, is there a medium between the two.

In addition, for a system supposed to be faster than turn based as its main selling point, RTWP games run SLOWER than turn based combat that doesn't have animations that are slow as shit. No matter what order I issue, it will always take 6 seconds to execute, meaning even the lowest trash mob my group can mindlessly kill (which tend to be EVERYWHERE in RtwP games) will always take a minimum of 6 seconds, often longer if there are more than I have attackers.

 

[V_K]

I'd call Arcanum's character system needlessly cumbersome - with skills, spells and tech disciplines all using different advancement mechanics.

Isn't that the whole fucking point of it?

The whole fucking point of what exactly?
Anyway, that could makes sense if differet skill categories actually worked differently (like weapon, magic and misc skills in DSA-based games) or used different resource pools for advancement, but since neither is the case, it just makes the system a clusterfuck.

 

[Bluebottle]

Bad implementations spring to mind, as do unnecessarily poorly documented ones, but needlessly elaborate ones...not so much.

 

[sser]

E.Y.E.