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World of Darkness Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2 from Hardsuit Labs

Delterius

Arcane
Joined
Dec 12, 2012
Messages
15,956
Location
Entre a serra e o mar.
Storyfag citation needed for what? I am not a PNP player. I just read the manuals. Feel free to correct me.

For Jeanette's generation.

Well, you are 8th gen. and you can't dominate her.

Also

https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Jeanette_Voerman
Yes, but LaCroix can dominate you early on whereas he fails at the ending.

Its generally assumed that Troika wanted to give you more blood points from the get go since this is a single player action game. As development moved onwards, they wrote around generation mechanics, added a few 'mysteries' and inconsistencies here and there, giving off the impression that your true generation isn't revealed until a bit later.
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
20,054
So? being a 11th gen Vampire is already pretty powerful.

Not enough to impress Strauss or Andrei, besides which you can determine your gen from your blood points. If the game adheres to the PnP rules, you’re 8th gen.
From what I remember, game does not really follow PnP rules in most things. Why would it follow blood points that follow specific generation ones?
I doubt we can find out player's real generation from that.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
So? being a 11th gen Vampire is already pretty powerful.

Not enough to impress Strauss or Andrei, besides which you can determine your gen from your blood points. If the game adheres to the PnP rules, you’re 8th gen.
From what I remember, game does not really follow PnP rules in most things. Why would it follow blood points that follow specific generation ones?
I doubt we can find out player's real generation from that.

Maybe not but it is low enough to impress Strauss and Andrei, and near the endgame LaCroix fails to Dominate you. Whatever it is, it is impressively low, lower than 11th gen for sure.
 

Lambach

Arcane
Joined
Feb 11, 2016
Messages
12,827
Location
Belgrade, Removekebabland
In the "evil" ending you diablerize Vudovlak. How realistic is it that Christof actually bested the battle of wills against Vudovlak?

Almost every fight, physical or spiritual, that Christof was involved in should've ended with him being smeared all over every wall in a 50-foot radius if the game adhered even 5% to the actual lore. That goes double for Etrius and triple for Vukodlak.
 

Tacgnol

Shitlord
Patron
Joined
Oct 12, 2010
Messages
1,871,750
Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Grab the Codex by the pussy RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I helped put crap in Monomyth
So? being a 11th gen Vampire is already pretty powerful.

Not enough to impress Strauss or Andrei, besides which you can determine your gen from your blood points. If the game adheres to the PnP rules, you’re 8th gen.
From what I remember, game does not really follow PnP rules in most things. Why would it follow blood points that follow specific generation ones?
I doubt we can find out player's real generation from that.

Maybe not but it is low enough to impress Strauss and Andrei, and near the endgame LaCroix fails to Dominate you. Whatever it is, it is impressively low, lower than 11th gen for sure.

I always liked the theory that Caine was "tweaking" your character throughout the game.

It is certainly within his power to change a vampire's generation. Also provides an explanation as to how the player grows powerful so quickly.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,017
Pathfinder: Wrath
If the characters didn't constantly bring it up, it would've been easy to just say they did it for gameplay reasons, but they do. The most lore-friendly reason I could think up without bringing in Caine is, like I said, the PC being a centuries old ghoul (or even a revenant) that was mindwiped.
 
Joined
May 4, 2017
Messages
631
Almost every fight, physical or spiritual, that Christof was involved in should've ended with him being smeared all over every wall in a 50-foot radius if the game adhered even 5% to the actual lore. That goes double for Etrius and triple for Vukodlak.

But isn't Christof and what he did in the game "Canon"?
 

ga♥

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
7,614
Akshualy, the "official" explanation could still work.
That is, the cab driver is just a low gen Malkavian deluded in thinking to be Caine.

He could actually strenghten you, if he was 5th gen or something.
 

Maculo

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 30, 2013
Messages
2,545
Strap Yourselves In Pathfinder: Wrath
I have been reading up on "Thin Bloods". Is it basically a WoD vampire option for players that did not want to join a clan or be constricted by one? I am curious why WW would make this an option otherwise.

The WoD wiki also had this statement, "Thin-bloods are not allowed to join the Camarilla, making them Anarchs by default." It makes sense, but part of me hopes they ignore it in the gameplay.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,017
Pathfinder: Wrath
But isn't Christof and what he did in the game "Canon"?
As far as I know, yes, but the game really strays far away from the PnP. Both in terms of mechanics and lore. Later books tried to incorporate what happened in the game by changing a few things, like saying Ekaterina was actually lying and she wasn't alive during Carthage. But that came with different inconsistencies, like stating she was embraced 9 years after Christof was (by her).
 

vota DC

Augur
Joined
Aug 23, 2016
Messages
2,269
-Your appointment with the Governor should be finalized within the week. I've already discussed the matter with the Mayor.
-I take it he was agreeable?
-He didn't really have a choice.
-Has he been embraced?
- Ah yes, most certainly. When I mentioned we could put him on the priority list for the unicorn blood transfusion, he was so willing it was almost pathetic.
-This mass embracing — the new vampires are so many to the point where Camarilla population control may not be able to contain it.
-Why contain it? Let embrace people over into the schools and churches. Let the kindreds pile up in the streets. In the end, they'll beg us to guide them.
-I've received reports of armed attacks on hospitals. There's not enough bloodpacks to go around, and the caitiffs are starting to get desperate.
-Of course they're desperate. They can feel their thirst, and the sound they'll make biting people's necks will serve as a warning to the rest.
-Hmm. I hope you're not underestimating the problem. The others may not go as quietly as you think. Intelligence indicates Camarilla are behind the problems in Seattle.
-A bunch of pretentious old vampires hiding from the world, but the world hunted them behind long ago. We are the future!
-We have other problems.
-Anarchs?
-Led by a black gay muslim feminist here in Seattle. I have someone in place though. I'm more concerned about Smiling Jack. He will be relocated here.
-Our body is far in advance of theirs, because vicissitude, and their... new sjw agenda has allowed us to make progress in areas they refuse to consider.
-The chad project?
-Among other things, but I must admit that I've been somewhat disappointed with the performance of the primary chad.
-The secondary chad should be embraced soon. It's currently undergoing preparations and should be a badass vampirel within six days. My people will continue to report on its progress. If necessary, the primary will be diablerized.
-We've had to endure much, you and I, but soon there will be order again — a vampire age. Bible wrote of the mythical Caine father of all vampires. Soon that father will be a surpassed, and we will be crowned as tsars, or better than tsars: Gods!
 

Wesp5

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
1,784
I always liked the theory that Caine was "tweaking" your character throughout the game.

Me too. In my opinion Caine, aka the Cabbie, wanted to test his children to decide whether Gehenna should come or not. So together with Jack he orchestrated the sarcophagus story to observe how the factions behave under pressure and LA was the optimal playing field as all big factions were available...
 

Chippy

Arcane
Patron
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
6,066
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.


Watched 5min. Don't get exited about games anymore. If they made a virtual sex game where you could fuck anything, they'd probably try to politicise your pov/view from who was doing the fucking and who you were entitled to fuck.
 
Joined
May 8, 2018
Messages
3,535
And what if he bites Caine himself (assuming he can catch him)?

MHrREsGDq06vOuNLyqMYNHvIChC1111x-jtxuB7Dyxk.jpg
 

Arulan

Cipher
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Messages
313
VtM:B has terrific writing, atmosphere, and worldbuilding. The rest ranges from acceptable (character mechanics) to borderline terrible (moment to moment gameplay).

I find it puzzling that you mention level design and C&C. The hubs are nice enough (and very immersive, with believable locations) but the combat areas are basically corridors, a few exceptions aside. They get downright bad after Hollywood, everybody hates the sewers. As to C&C there really is none, it’s completely on rails up to the point where you get to pick your ending.

Regarding level design, I think a lot of the buildings are underappreciated. Bloodlines made urban exploration interesting without the need for a large open-world. Not only are there often a few different ways to get in, but they're sprawling with different floors, crawl-spaces, environmental storytelling, and secrets to discover. I think it's a prime example of what urban exploration should look like, although like you said, some of the later areas faltered.

Agreed - I found "atmosphere" to be the real MVP here. Above everything else, that's why you remember the game so vividly. Other cool but forgettable games have cute writing or memorable characters, but Bloodlines is a clear contender for the most atmospheric game ever made. From the minute you get to the title screen you are treated to just the PERFECT menu theme along with a visual aesthetic that combines so well you can't even seperate the two anymore - you see that menu screen, you think of that music, and vice versa. It's cohesive, in other words, and informs you immediately about the game's mood. Then you enter the world and get the distinct impression that every visual designer had to write the project's vision on a blackboard 500 times before they could start working. There's just no other explanation of how everything fits so well together and seems to be designed by a single mind around a single, great idea. The most ubiquitous description of WoD found in all source material is that of it being our world, just bathed in deeper contrasts of dark colors, more gothic visuals and more intangible but deeper felt emotions - violence is more violent but expensed with less restraint, pain is more painful, if there's a skyscraper there's a gargoyle and if there's dancing there's drugs etc. This simple manifest seems to have governed the visual design completely, and Troika kind of interpreted it in an almost cartoony manner. The world is gritty and depressing, sure, but it almost has the tone of a comic book with deep and vivid colours, characters who aren't afraid to joke while relaying their otherwise serious banter, have overstated facial expressions and whose expressiveness is exaggerated (incidentally why I never got the people who claim the source engine "expressions" of the characters look dated, I think they fit the game very well). As far as the colours go, it's not just contrast, either: most of the colours of the game "bleed" (no pun intended) and the visual design of colour being washed out with water is constantly repeating, which was perhaps an obvious thematic choice but it's made genius by just how present it is in every part of the game.

Then on top of everything drawing you in visually, the soundtrack is just perfect - a clear example of how context matters. Like, listen to Lecher Bitch more than 3 times on Spotify and you get sick of it if you didn't in the first 8 seconds, or listen to Cain by Tiamat and feel like you're listening to some edgy teenager's idea of depth, but listen to that shit in the context of the experiences and atmosphere of Bloodlines and it is somehow imbued with a quality many of these songs just do not possess on their own (though some do). The actual score designed specifically for the game is extremely good as well, such as the horror theme playing in Grout's basement, which I still use today whenever I need to evoke the emotion of uncertain, ambiguous horror in a P&P game. The songs have been chosen and the score designed by the same tenets as the visual design - so you get the depressing cries or angry outbursts of drug-addled clubbers combined with sounds that are simultaneously vibrant and colourful (I'm not a music expert and as such do not possess the proper terminology to describe what I mean, but to get what I'm saying listen to the theme in VV's club or, again, the main theme. You have a slow pace combined with drawn out of chords, twisted sounds, clearly present base etc. Especially the drawn out chords makes the music "bleed" with the colours, again evoking that style of fluidity and especially longing). Then you have the repeated praise of what is perhaps still the best voice acting of any video game (though ironically some of the worst too - Mitsoda's own, for instance). Again, much of it borders on being cartoonish which totally works because it fits with the exaggeration of expression and contrast of colours that binds the game's worldbuilding together. To this it adds great writing that fits with the style - a snarky cynicism that rarely goes to Deadpool levels which means it ends up being more grounded ("The Golden Temple in Chinatown - it's a pisspoor copy of a real place") and the fact that the politics of the world are fleshed out in some way or another in almost every single conversation makes it seem like you're playing a game with high stakes even if the C&C is minimal, and quests or plot development that often focus on one of the greatest themes of WoD: how agency is a mirage, information is always incomplete and the larger structure of society and power is the true decider (even if some endings sort of spoils these themes, the Anarch ending being the worst offender even if that was my favorite when I was younger).

Why is the snuff quest so horrifying (at least before it turns into a slog of boring mechancis)? Because every part of Bloodlines’ audiovisual design and writing has informed you about its world to a point where your imagination can easily fill in the blanks of what is NOT disclosed to you at the beginning of this plot thread. The fact that the world has been so well-established means that the simple act of introducing a snuff film to it means your mind begins to run wild with horrifying ideas - "oh my God, snuff, I didn't even think of that. What horrors could exist in this world of unfeeling monsters?" or even the very banal: "Which of these unfeeling monsters am I pursuing right now, and what am I gonna find while pursuing it?" Any answer you are likely to come up with while pondering these questions is sure to be uncomfortable. But one of the best scenes to underline how atmospheric Bloodlines is, in my opinion, is the initial meeting with Gary. This character is everything that is great about Bloodlines. Haunting, yet somehow strangely appealing and even weirdly friendly, almost cozy. The dinner is a horrorific scene, sure, but Gary’s tongue-in-cheek nostalgia makes it seem almost cute and endearing. Gary himself is Sharply written with PERFECT voice acting - but also kind of cartoonish when looked at holistically. Sarcastic and cynical, but not to the point where he negates meaning in a careless manner or becomes edgy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfT7Bj0Zk7w

You sum all of this up - as well as all the other little things that add to this design such as the environmental storytelling, the overabundance of clever or interesting details, or the constant, ever-present ambiguity of everything (Pisha being a true highlight here) - you get a product that evokes true immersion, loathe as I am to use the word. Not by some fake and superficial attempt at 360 degree simulation but by taking immense care to sell you on its world in every little detail. In fact, Bloodlines kind of shames a lot of the modern sandbox games by showing how foolish their attempts at achieving immersion through emulating the real world is - you don't get sold on a fiction by it copying the real world, that just draws attention to the areas where the world clearly doesn't act as it should (like how GTA has reached the pinnacle of superficial realism but its completely wacky mechanics and player freedom totally undermines its attempts at emulation, which is why they had the terrible idea of punishing you for having fun in the 4th). You get sold on a world by it adhering to its own, internal logic, its inner consistency, if its themes are otherwise appealing. How well it mirrors the real world doesn't matter at all - how well all the pieces fit into a convincing whole within its own fictional contract with you, the audience, is all that matters. That’s why Bloodlines can present you with supernatural abominations and clear nonsense without ever losing your trust in its “realness.”

In other words, Bloodlines is like an ode to the importance of aesthetics. A critical memo to those (including me at some points in my life) who would claim that "substance" (i.e. game mechanics, themes of the story or whatever) is the only worthy pursuit.

I realized I just gushed for half a page but in reality, I guess from a Codexian point of view the above could be viewed as criticism. Because besides well-written characters and superb atmosphere, two things that the Codex usually don't emphasize as that important, Bloodlines hasn't really got much going for it. But by Christ those elements are so extremely well-crafted I forgive all these faults and still enjoyed my seventh playthrough immensely, even if the 6 years between that and my last playthrough had given me plenty of time to wipe the nostalgia from my glasses.

Posts like these are why I come to the Codex. :salute:
 

typical user

Arbiter
Joined
Nov 30, 2015
Messages
957
If you trying to bite someone with much lower generation having another vampire in your body is smallest of your risks.

Only if you diablerise Antediluvian so 3rd maybe 4th gen. Still it requires godlike proficiency in clan Disciplines - can't remember which but somewhere around 9th level which also requires spending 9 blood points, basically you tell one of your childe to suck you dry so you can reincarnate and it requires a willpower roll against the one who diableries you of course you have upper hand since they already are at disadvantage.

So by that logic La Croix would just be consumed from within by the person in sarcophagus and that guy wouldn't be happy to be taken out from torpor.
 

alyvain

Learned
Joined
Mar 18, 2017
Messages
376
Regarding level design, I think a lot of the buildings are underappreciated. Bloodlines made urban exploration interesting without the need for a large open-world. Not only are there often a few different ways to get in, but they're sprawling with different floors, crawl-spaces, environmental storytelling, and secrets to discover. I think it's a prime example of what urban exploration should look like, although like you said, some of the later areas faltered.

Nicely said. Santa Monica and Downtown LA are probably my favorite urban landscaprs in videogames. Especially Santa Monica. I remember this location vividly, right up to the last brick, and still every time I play I kinda expect to find some little passageway between two parts of the town.
Sadly, Hollywood and Chinatown are shit. Especially the latter. Even the Unavowed, which is a pixelated nightmare, had better Chinatown than Bloodlines.
 
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Oct 8, 2018
Messages
1,121
Ok I know I just posted about Damsel just a few hours ago but I was on my phone near hockey and now that I'm home I just want to fully gush about how fierce she is!

It's totally blowing my mind that a video game character from the early 2000s is soo timeless and so soo fierce! It's like when I watched Clueless with my sisters and could not get over just how iconic Cher was!

She's aspirational in the best way YA fiction characters always are, she could totally be one of your best friends in the squad but you also totally want to be that girl. Brian Mitsoda is a genius and it is a crime if Damsel doesn't return in Bloodlines 2 (of course with an updated lewk of pastel hair and a Future is Female crop top!)

giphy.gif


Bloodlines is totally one of the best games I've ever played!!!
 

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