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Divinity Divinity: Original Sin 2 - Definitive Edition

Ventidius

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 8, 2017
Messages
552
Sven 40:13:
we were very stubborn we didn't want to change it because we say well they don't understand it's so accessible everybody understands it blah and yeah lots and lots and lots of discussions there were an incredible amount of iterations inside of the company trying to save the armour system but essentially it remained a broken thing and it's something we shipped with and maybe we shouldn't have shipped with this system

A shame, commercial success really screwed this game. After garnering such a large audience there was no way Larian would work up the nerve to make major changes in the system. They did have a good chance of doing so with the Definitive Edition though, especially since people can still choose which mode to play on. In any case, if this game had received the kind of iteration and heavy, restructuring patching that the first PoE did, it would probably have become the best Western RPG since the IE games. I still think it's a good game despite its flaws, but it could have been so much more.
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Messages
97,490
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Random thing: https://www.pcgamesn.com/divinity-original-sin-2/divinity-original-sin-2-classes

Divinity: Original Sin’s team “love it” when players break the game
Or why the Chicken Claw and Rupture Tendons combo was taken away

divinity-original-sin-2-900x506.jpg


Divinity: Original Sin 2 is an exceptional game about trying to overcome impossible odds – demons, ancient evils, even giant blobs of sentient oil. You can pretty much become a god as you level up, unleashing your powers on everything that stands in your way, but no matter how mighty you get, many of the fights will still be tough. That’s no accident.

Developer Larian Studios engineered its RPG to offer challenges throughout that are daunting at first but can soon be beaten with a bit of experimentation and gusto. What’s truly impressive, however, is how there are so many different ways to approach each fight, all of which stem from how you build your character. You can be a fire-wielding battlemage, for example, a shape-shifting warrior, or even an archer with a penchant for summoning. Each build feels as ferocious and viable as any other, which is indicative of the remarkable balancing act Larian managed to pull off in Divinity 2.

So how do you give players the tools to almost break your game open while still keeping it both challenging and fun? One person who can speak widely on that is the game’s systems designer Nick Pechenin. He’s the man at the heart of the complex web of interactions that the Divinity series has become known for. He reveals that while many of the series’ systems are capable of producing absurd results – upon which much of the games’ humour is built – there’s little post-release tinkering to speak of as they’re locked down at the start of a game’s life cycle and usually remain unchanged.

But it does happen occasionally. The most striking example of something actually getting patched out comes in the form of a two-skill combo: Chicken Claw and Rupture Tendons. This combo allowed you to inflict a status that hurt enemies when they moved, then turn them into cowardly chickens who would run about as fast as they could. It did an absurd amount of damage and was a lot of fun, but it wouldn’t last. It turns out there were two reasons for this.



“For one, we felt like the players had enough time to make all the gifs they wanted, and this reliable combo wasn’t giving other great combos time to shine,” Pechenin tells me. “There was also a more technical reason – the chicken is much smaller than most humanoid characters and tended to randomly run into tight spaces, where the original character would get stuck afterwards.”

It wasn’t just that the combo was too strong, then, it was also stifling other, equally barmy options. One such example is to choose to become an undead geomancer, which means poison heals you, so when facing a toxic gang of wretches their attacks make you stronger – then you can add insult to injury and set them ablaze. There are loads of these combos to discover. Balancing them with everything else in a game like Divinity requires a great deal of finesse, so where does Larian even begin this process?

“We factor in some amount of exploitation on the player’s part into the core balancing formulas,” Pechenin says. It’s almost as if they expect us to try and break the game. Many people manage to, of course, one infamous instance of which is the Divinity: Original Sin speedrunning technique which involves filling a chest with items and then lobbing it at the final boss for an insta-kill. This discovery shocked the team at Larian as much as it did the game’s community.

“It’s important for us that there are things in the game to truly discover that weren’t pre-arranged by us,” Pechenin says. “This means that while we don’t intentionally place one-shot combos into the game, we do create a thick soup of interacting effects and mechanics that’s very likely to contain some. Some are found during development and get contained in some way. Like, you can teleport a patch of lava around Reaper’s Coast, wiping out almost everyone, but at least you can’t take it with you into a cave or into the next act.”

Finding these exploits makes for some of Divinity’s most memorable moments. That fact plays on the minds of Larian as the devs try to work out what to remove when balancing the game, knowing that leaving an exploit in could lead to a serendipitous delight. “In a game as vast as Divinity, there’s always a chance that some exploits will make it into release, and we’re lucky enough to have dedicated fans that will figure them out. So when someone finds an infinite damage combo, they can tell from the tanking frame rate that they might be the first ones ever to come up with it. There’s always a commotion in the office when a player posts a video of a crazy exploit, we love this stuff.”

As you can probably imagine, a game like this has to be QA tested continually in order to make sure none of the interactions are too outlandish. But how does Larian even approach that? There are so many different skills and effects to consider, not to mention the environments and the many reactive objects dotted around inside of them.

“It’s a question we keep on changing the answer to because, with every game, we learn how and what to improve,” senior producer David Walgrave tells me. “There are different types of QA. We automate certain tests, but not everything can be. There are a lot of things you can easily QA with checklists. For instance, there are rules for items, so there are checklists for items. That way we try to make sure the easy-to-spot bugs are found and flagged.”

Something that also helps to lighten the load, if only a little, is the game’s structured world design, as it means the testing can focus on the most plausible paths. While it’s open in nature, Divinity’s world bottlenecks players at certain points, and offers optional hardcore fights for the hardy. “The player is mostly free to skip content if they feel they want to be challenged, even go to the next act early,” Pechenin says. “And fights like Alice Alisceon in Reaper’s Coast are there for the overpowered players to fight somebody their size.”

Larian makes an effort to cater to the different levels of challenge that its varied playerbase is after. Hence the existence of the Lone Wolf talent, which turns a party made up of only one or two characters – rather than the standard four – into monstrous powerhouses. “Playing with a Lone Wolf party is one of my favourite ways to play the game in a relaxed way,” Pechenin says. “The basic idea is to pack the action economy and skill variety of four characters into just two and increase the game’s pacing.



“Crowd control abilities can be much more dangerous for a lone wolf and they get fewer item total bonuses than a full party, but on the other hand, they have an easier time chaining their skills, which is generally how you win. So, in the end, it was a matter of tuning the average survivability in combat and making sure this all holds up in the endgame.”

When thinking about the difficulties of balancing Divinity, it’s the smaller aspects like Lone Wolf, which dramatically change how its combat scenarios work, that spring to mind. Then you have to consider that this is only one way to play the game, and there are several other possibilities, many of which are just as radical, threatening to pull the game apart at its seams. It seems that the way Larian deal with it all is to embrace the engine of possibilities that rumbles beneath the game’s surface. This explains why the Teleportation Gloves in Divinity: Original Sin 2 exist in such wicked form.

“Over the years there were many ideas for how to limit, reprice, or postpone [the Teleportation] skill,” Pechenin says, “but it’s just too much fun to get it in your first few hours and use comfortably in every combat scenario since then.”

The Divinity games allow you to become overpowered simply because it’s fun. It’s rare for a developer to have this attitude towards exploits in its games – especially in an age of huge online games that are easily spoiled by them – but that’s part of what makes Divinity so entertaining. It’s made by a team that doesn’t want to take away the best toys it’s created – it wants you to embrace the hilarity and spectacle they make possible.
 

Kirkpatrick

Cipher
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Messages
773
It's still there, isn't it? Not that I used it much, but certainly it was there in my version of GOG game. DE, but might not be with the latest patch.
 

Riddler

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 5, 2009
Messages
2,355
Bubbles In Memoria
What mods are must have?

Are there any good ones dealing with the item scaling or inventory clutter for instance?
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
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PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
Really enjoyed the GDC talk. The part about the armour system is really interesting because it sounds like that they knew that the system was bad even at release
Sven 40:13:
we were very stubborn we didn't want to change it because we say well they don't understand it's so accessible everybody understands it blah and yeah lots and lots and lots of discussions there were an incredible amount of iterations inside of the company trying to save the armour system but essentially it remained a broken thing and it's something we shipped with and maybe we shouldn't have shipped with this system
What's the moral of the story - people buy games to goof around with pretty graphics and listen to VO, not to play them.

Now there is a sincere subject for a GDC talk.
 

Dodo1610

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2018
Messages
2,160
Location
Germany
Really enjoyed the GDC talk. The part about the armour system is really interesting because it sounds like that they knew that the system was bad even at release
Sven 40:13:
we were very stubborn we didn't want to change it because we say well they don't understand it's so accessible everybody understands it blah and yeah lots and lots and lots of discussions there were an incredible amount of iterations inside of the company trying to save the armour system but essentially it remained a broken thing and it's something we shipped with and maybe we shouldn't have shipped with this system
What's the moral of the story - people buy games to goof around with pretty graphics and listen to VO, not to play them.

Now there is a sincere subject for a GDC talk.

Maybe we just misunderstood DOS 2 and in truth, it always was some kind of Koop sandbox visual novel with combat.
:negative:
When reading the stuff "people" tweet @ Larian about DOS2 it's obvious that their fans are more interested in romance and story then everything else.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut

Mud'

Scholar
Joined
Oct 9, 2018
Messages
225
What mods are must have?

Are there any good ones dealing with the item scaling or inventory clutter for instance?
faster run speed
you miss out on a ton of shit without pet pal, you might consider getting a mod that makes it innate
No good item mods? The itemisation kills my desire to play the game.
there's a mod that fixes the pants on head retarded itemization curve/stat bloat

I only know about Better Uniques for items, other than that I don't know any other mod that helps with mods.
 

cruel

Cipher
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
875
I'm still gathering strength and motivation to start this (failed 3 times as of now). From the research I did, the game should be played with either:

1) option 1

Reduced Nunber Bloat
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1499553074
+
Armor Based Saving Throws
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1505329732


2) option 2

Divine War
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1726510744


First option removes number bloat, keeps equipment valid for more time, and makes armor less annoying by making CC work based on % of armor remaining.
Second option removes armor completely, but this is a complete overhaul - I'm not sure if it's totally bug free and playable. But will probably go with this one, I absolutely hate the armor split.


There was one more interesting mod:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1139221227

This mod was reducing numbers for Physical / Magical armor, but bumping Vitality instead. So the length of time spent on specific battle should stay similar, but without the annoying damage split. Unfortunately, there is no version for Definitive Edition and author has no time to do it.
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
Really enjoyed the GDC talk. The part about the armour system is really interesting because it sounds like that they knew that the system was bad even at release
Sven 40:13:
we were very stubborn we didn't want to change it because we say well they don't understand it's so accessible everybody understands it blah and yeah lots and lots and lots of discussions there were an incredible amount of iterations inside of the company trying to save the armour system but essentially it remained a broken thing and it's something we shipped with and maybe we shouldn't have shipped with this system
Well when I see that I feel at least a little bit vindicated, in a way, for that fucking write-up I did. At least they acknowledge that they fucked up, in a way.
 

Lacrymas

Arcane
Joined
Sep 23, 2015
Messages
18,019
Pathfinder: Wrath
They are removing armor in that next game they are making, so they are not only acknowledging it, but trying to improve the situation, so that's good.
 

Jinn

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
4,977
I'm still gathering strength and motivation to start this (failed 3 times as of now). From the research I did, the game should be played with either:

Having played a good 15 hours with Armor Based Saving Throws, I highly recommend it. Works very well and shows how this system could have very easily been salvaged by Larian. Check my former post if you haven't already to see a couple equipment/loot based mods that smooth out the experience nicely too. On that note, I didn't opt to use the Reduced Number Bloat mod, simply because Armor Based Saving Throws seemed like it would greatly alleviate that problem in and of itself. Haven't had any troubles with bloat yet, but that might change later on. We'll see.

Would be very interested to hear some thoughts on Divine War, though I myself would be hesitant to put this humongous game into the hands of a complete system overhaul. Who knows, though. Maybe its awesome?

EDIT: Care to use your words rusty_shackleford?
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,873
Played 3/4 of game with both reduced and throws and it was pretty good. Didn't finish though mostly because i got bored trying to fix game for past 50 hours.
 

Dawkinsfan69

Dumbfuck!
Dumbfuck Bethestard
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Jun 3, 2016
Messages
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inside ur mom ᕦ( ▀̿ Ĺ̯ ▀̿ )ᕤ
Alright tried the game for like the 5th time and I'm giving up for good, just can't get into this. I'm literally falling asleep partway through tutorial island. I'm like 1.5 hr in and already have a full party, know basically nothing about any of the party members, and am being followed around by a cat and a squirrel riding a dead thing? I have little tutorial boxes popping up every minute and my action bars are full of crap. I think I'm supposed to talk to every npc, because one may have a quest or something important, and there are hundreds crammed into a tiny ass area, and they're ALL boring as fuck. There's so much visual clutter that my eyes get tired after a few minutes as if I'm not already exhausted enough by reading all the boring ass dialogue and waiting for 10 dudes to slowly resolve their animations in combat.

Just way too much going on here and none of it is interesting. I don't even know what the fuck the plot is or what a source is nor do I care. The world-building is just crammed with every cliche in the book and it's impossible to make sense out of anything.

I don't understand how this game became mainstream. There's no way the average gamer would be able to get anywhere here
 

Jezal_k23

Guest
Well, finally some acknowledgement of the flaws of the armor system. That is important because it was fundamentally broken and I hope to never see this in a Larian game again.
 

Jimmious

Arcane
Patron
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May 18, 2015
Messages
5,132
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
bla bla I'm bored to read and pay attention
Maybe find some other genre to play and it will hold your attention better. Speaking to lots of NPCs ,some of which won't be really interesting, is to be expected in complex cRPGs.
If you prefer you can just play something like Skyrim where NPCs just say hello and keep on moving to not confuse you
 

Dawkinsfan69

Dumbfuck!
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inside ur mom ᕦ( ▀̿ Ĺ̯ ▀̿ )ᕤ
bla bla I'm bored to read and pay attention
Maybe find some other genre to play and it will hold your attention better. Speaking to lots of NPCs ,some of which won't be really interesting, is to be expected in complex cRPGs.
If you prefer you can just play something like Skyrim where NPCs just say hello and keep on moving to not confuse you

not sure if you've played any old school rpgs but overwhelmingly in those games, inconsequential npcs have no dialogue boxes and at most have a small chat bubble that pops up when clicking them. Also they typically have generic names (villager, etc..)

i'm glad you enjoy larian "lol-so-random xD" style writing and gameplay though, if I could gift you my copy i would
 

Mud'

Scholar
Joined
Oct 9, 2018
Messages
225
Maybe find some other genre to play and it will hold your attention better. Speaking to lots of NPCs ,some of which won't be really interesting, is to be expected in complex cRPGs.
If you prefer you can just play something like Skyrim where NPCs just say hello and keep on moving to not confuse you

The only RPG i recall having lots of random NPCs with boring ass shit to tell was Shadowrun Hong Kong, that game was a fucking chore to play because of the filler NPCs.
Also Pillars of Eternity with the backers NPCs.
 

Grotesque

±¼ ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Patron
Vatnik
Joined
Apr 16, 2012
Messages
9,020
Divinity: Original Sin Divinity: Original Sin 2
I am the voice from the past telling you that this game is fun in great part because it's nearly like a sand box game where human creativity is rewarded and the best area in the game is the island you start on. :)
 

Haplo

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Sep 14, 2016
Messages
6,188
Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Yes....
....and it fast goes downhill from there.
 

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