Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Marten Broadcloak]

Can we talk about how Expedition is bad for non-sneaky characters... even psi ones? Like, a hundred strongmen to kill with electrokinesis which only removes 5% of their health at a time, how is that supposed to be enjoyable?

 

[ItsChon]

Can we talk about how Expedition is bad for non-sneaky characters... even psi ones? Like, a hundred strongmen to kill with electrokinesis which only removes 5% of their health at a time, how is that supposed to be enjoyable?

Surprisingy, Expedition was super easy with my Hoplite character. Even easier than it was for my Psi-Sniper, which I think is one of the best builds in the game. Up there with AR and full Psi.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Marten Broadcloak]

Can we talk about how Expedition is bad for non-sneaky characters... even psi ones? Like, a hundred strongmen to kill with electrokinesis which only removes 5% of their health at a time, how is that supposed to be enjoyable?

didnt you get the memo that sneaking is THE way to play? never been to deep caverns or something?

I'm running my first ever character without stealth after 12 times finishing the game sneakily. I got tired of hiding in the shadows.

 

[Tigranes]

I did large chunks of Expeditions with a hoplite, sniper, and a tiny bit with a psi dude, before I decided to completely ignore the Black Sea with every character and be far happier for it.

Anyway, I can say, the idea of psi characters having a tough time with strongmen for example is fine since psi is OP, but the result is that it's even more mindnumbingly boring than other characters. Your tactics are always the same, line them up, chokepoint, grenades/traps, then pew pew pew, but the pew pew pew takes 800 million turns and none of them pose any kind of threat. They're MMO enemies trapped in a superb CRPG wondering what's going on.

There's a guy on the official forums who finished UR at lvl 8 on DOMINATING with ARs.

Better nerf quick tinkering again.

lvl6.

Edit: That thread made me depressed because theoretically it means that you can finish the game at lvl4-5 where the main difference is that each fight will be a slog (use traps everywhere, use gas grenades + doors and so on).

Then it shows that there is something wrong with the skill systems because AR lvl 6 can finish the game while the rest of the builds are basically insignificant by comparison.

The AR build is done at lvl 14 with Commando which means that the next 16 levels are pretty much pointless unless you invest in crafting.

You are joking but one possible solution is to increase Traps requirements for traps.

I would argue that almost every build is complete after level ~12 & reaching Core City shops. You can add synergistic bonus feats to top up on your chosen tactic, like more crit power, or crafting perks for super items, but you will not really learn any new tricks. Your guy will play the same way from there until the end. This was true before DLC and is still true now.

Underrail character development has three stages. The first stage is incredibly fun: you're a shitty weakling trying to survive, and you're hunting for the next big tangible upgrade that might arrive by a fortuitous loot/merchant drop, and/or the next feat that really adds exponential possibilities (E.g. setting up for a cryogenic chem pistol at level 6 and going ham on Depot A).

Then you get to around level 10/12, the world opens up, you can hit Core City shops for everything you need, your character is defined and nothing will fundamentally change. It is still great fun for a while to enjoy all your hard-won toys, but at some point you realise you're just doing the same thing over and over again. Snipe+Aimed Shot that guy, force field force field, etc. How long it takes to wear off depends on the person, I guess.

What's the third stage, you ask? Why, that's the biggest stage, the alpha and omega: the 8 hours of character planning before, during and after each of the other stages. Good stuff.

 

[Trash Player]

How does this work? The log says Carnifex resisted almost all my damage yet his health meter went down and so did he.

As toro said, it seems that Carnifex had a 50% energy damage resistance. When the combat log says that X hits Y for Z damage, Z is the actual amount of damage Y took after reduced by DR. From what I can understand, damage threshold (DT) needs to be bypassed by attackers before they can deal any damage, and THEN the damage will be reduced by DR, but NOT both. And so, from the looks of it, it seems that Carnifex had 50% energy DR, which explains why the amount of damage he took from you is the exact same with the amount of damage he resisted.

Or perhaps I understand it wrongly, in which case consults the ones who know better.

Carnifex has a dose of morphine on him, otherwise he has no DR/DT to energy at all. Attacks goes through the higher between DR and DT, so a 300 gunshot is reduced to 180 through a 25%/40 tac vest.

 

[Fenix]

I'm not sure what to use the q154 plate for.

Can you put it inside RA? Or was it tact.vests only?

I've been trying to catch a phantom jelly for the past fucking week, off and on, moving from area to area.

I know area, where oyu can easlily catch them. It's in the area you can access before finishing Depot A.

Spoiler

That area, near Milton guy - where a lone mindshroom is groving. Pick it up and mount rod there, or somewhere around - 2 FJ from two tries.

I decided to do DC instead of the locusts as I've never actually finished it before ( ).

What a fantasticly atmospheric and lore-filled area, I'd really like to finish this game properly for once, oh look, there's a thousand tchortlings to avoid..

MediantSamuel what a weakling you are, I though Tchortists were genetically engineered for fighting!

From what I can understand, damage threshold (DT) needs to be bypassed by attackers before they can deal any damage, and THEN the damage will be reduced by DR, but NOT both.

Nope, it's either DR or DT used for damage negation, whichever has better results in mitigating damage.

 

[Blackmill]

and btw, where can i find Lemurian reef glider? I have keys.

If you haven't already found it, it's behind the gated waterway that you are on the wrong side of when you approach the JSHQs. I think you access the area by heading East once inside. Then you can raise the gate.

 

[Blaine]

The next thing we need are fully configurable difficulty options.

I want harder combat encounters, as I effortlessly blow through most of them, but I'm not putting up with 50% sell prices and bullshit like every piece of electronic loot contributing to EMP damage. It's already bad enough that Crippling Strike punishes you for carrying loot.

75-80% sell prices I could live with, but 50% can blow me. I swear, Styg designs this game as though you're maxing out every skill on the entire list.

Fuck, there's another mod I'll need to make.

 

[Blaine]

I'm not sure what to use the q154 plate for.

Can you put it inside RA? Or was it tact.vests only?

You can, as the shield. It adds 1 less armor penalty than a TiChrome shield and blocks noticeably more damage.

The thing is, the riot armor shield is just an extra bonus and safeguard, and doesn't need to be min-maxed. Fend/Spear Guard are the primary melee defense.

I know area, where oyu can easlily catch them. It's in the area you can access before finishing Depot A.

Spoiler

That area, near Milton guy - where a lone mindshroom is groving. Pick it up and mount rod there, or somewhere around - 2 FJ from two tries.

Thanks. Yeah, I read on the wiki that the Upper Caves are the best place, but probably certain rooms there are better than others. It's rare that I consult the wiki, but this thing is rage-inducing.

 

[toro]

Carnifex has a dose of morphine on him, otherwise he has no DR/DT to energy at all. Attacks goes through the higher between DR and DT, so a 300 gunshot is reduced to 180 through a 25%/40 tac vest.

Nope, it's either DR or DT used for damage negation, whichever has better results in mitigating damage.

wiki

When you take damage, your armor will either reduce it by the amount specified by the damage resistance or by the flat amount specified by the threshold, whichever is greater, not both

Well, fuck me.

 

[Blaine]

Well, fuck me.

Damage resistance is better for big hits, while damage threshold is better for small/rapid-fire hits.

Damage reduction (from morphine, feats, certain belts and armor, etc.), on the other hand, is applied after all other forms of mitigation, meaning it's the weakest form of mitigation. Still, it's a third layer of mitigation, and stacks with morphine, so can be quite powerful.

 

[toro]

Well, fuck me.

Damage resistance is better for big hits, while damage threshold is better for small/rapid-fire hits.

Damage reduction (from morphine, feats, certain belts and armor, etc.), on the other hand, is applied after all other forms of mitigation, meaning it's the weakest form of mitigation. Still, it's a third layer of mitigation, and stacks with morphine, so can be quite powerful.

I'm not sure there are layers or mitigation. The wiki is pretty blunt about this:

Armor in Underrail reduces damage via one of two mechanics, percentage-based damage resistance or flat damage threshold (DR% / DT).

And from Black Angel post it looks like -50% Electric resistance from Morphine is applied on the full damage.

Basically all thresholds and resistances are added (from all armor pieces, feats and status effects) and the resulting values are applied using the mechanic above.

There is only one damage reduction mitigation layer.

 

[Tigranes]

Scientist energy/chem pistol 3 AGI 3 CON fellow with some Evasion & Nimble because why not throw some points away.

Sub-15% pen armours (E.g. Regalia) or Ancient Rathound (20%)? Equation changes later with infused leather later, but essentially, curious about how people calculate the cost/benefit of AP reduction.

One could go full on Nimble/Dodge/Evasion and sub-15% armour, meaning you dodge or you die. But what about a light/medium armoured character who uses Nimble more as a general offset to MP and other penalties? Is it just better to wear a tacvest / ancient rathound / whatever and not even take Nimble? Obviously won't be most optimal, but curious about what's viable.

 

[Blackmill]

Rather than configurable difficulty options, I'd like a very simply modding tool. Something that allows editing of items, enemy stats, and so on. A few things I would do...

- Give shields a precision penalty when active that is proportional to the max capacity of the shield. Say, 0.025 * max capacity.
- Three turn cooldown on reactivating the shield once turned off to prevent side-stepping this mechanic.
- You can still have your 2000 capacity shield. But you'll be losing a lot of your offense when it is active. Choosing a 1000 capacity shield instead is a viable alternative.

- Given the above change, EMP grenades don't fully drain electronics. Instead, they drain a fixed amount of battery. Short circuit duration changed.
- Initial thoughts are MK I, II, and III would drain 25, 50, and 75 battery respectively.
- Short circuit duration changed to 1, 2, 3 turns respectively.

- Give Psi abilities a "fizzle" chance. In effect, it would be the same as missing, but would make more sense than missing with abilities like Neural Overload.
- The fizzle chance would depend on base Psi cost and effective skill level.
- No more investing just 55 points in TM just to have +20 AP. Well, unless you want it to only work half the time.
- The shield precision penalty, described above, would apply to fizzle chance.

- Reduce stealth bonuses from armor pieces and increase enemy detection.
- Between leather armor, tabi boots, and a cloaking device you can have >160 stealth with zero investment in the skill. No longer.
- Even without armor bonuses, there wasn't much point to leveling stealth past 150 effective unless you are using Ambush. Again, no longer.

 

[toro]

Carnifex has a dose of morphine on him, otherwise he has no DR/DT to energy at all. Attacks goes through the higher between DR and DT, so a 300 gunshot is reduced to 180 through a 25%/40 tac vest.

300 * 0.25 = 75 > 40 therefore you should end up with 225 damage

 

[Blaine]

I'm not sure there are layers or mitigation. The wiki is pretty blunt about this:

I'll be REALLY blunt:

These days, damage reduction does show up on the combat stats sheet as the final % listed after each damage type. I have Conditioning and CON 8, so on my combat stats sheet, my final mechanical, heat, and cold damage taken are listed as 87% (meaning I take only 87% of the penultimate damage after all other forms of mitigation have been applied).

Mitigation from Conditioning, drugs, belts, and a couple of special armors are all damage reduction, all stack, and are all applied together after armor mitigation.

 

[ItsChon]

For this mission you don't need persuasion (unlike the previous ones) to do them solo. Just destroy it before you report to Cruzer, that's it.

The dialogue is extremely disappointing, he barely gives you a nod. I stealthed through it and blew it up with TNT, you could prob just genocide them all alone.

What and where did you blow it up? I can't find it and I don't feel like spending forever stealthing around the Rig with my shitty leather stealth gear.

 

[Spark Mandriller]

You can, as the shield. It adds 1 less armor penalty than a TiChrome shield and blocks noticeably more damage.

Only if it's way higher quality. 160 quality super steel blocks up to 45 damage as a shield. 129 quality titanium blocks up to 46. And Expedition buffed Leonie so she regularly sells metals in the 140-150 quality range, so it's not hard to get high quality titanium now either.
Super steel is in a sad position these days. It's good for infused leather and good for sheets in tactical vests/riot gear and that's about it. Not really that super.

 

[Blackmill]

You can, as the shield. It adds 1 less armor penalty than a TiChrome shield and blocks noticeably more damage.

Only if it's way higher quality. 160 quality super steel blocks up to 45 damage as a shield. 129 quality titanium blocks up to 46. And Expedition buffed Leonie so she regularly sells metals in the 140-150 quality range, so it's not hard to get high quality titanium now either.
Super steel is in a sad position these days. It's good for infused leather and good for sheets in tactical vests/riot gear and that's about it. Not really that super.

I think it's still very good for metal armor. It's mechanical damage reduction is much better than TiChrome. And the smaller armor penalty versus Tungsten steel can make it the better choice of metal if you have high evasion, since evasion reduces the damage your shield takes from grenades, but armor does not. I would probably do a 3/1 or 2/2 split between Super Steel and TiChrome unless I'm playing a stationary AR soldier.

 

[Spark Mandriller]

I think it's still very good for metal armor. It's mechanical damage reduction is much better than TiChrome. And the smaller armor penalty versus Tungsten steel can make it the better choice of metal if you have high evasion, since evasion reduces the damage your shield takes from grenades, but armor does not. I would probably do a 3/1 or 2/2 split between Super Steel and TiChrome unless I'm playing a stationary AR soldier.

But the nature of DR means you need to get it pretty high for it to be worthwhile, so you're going to end up with like 50% penalty anyway. You're going to need a whole lot of evasion just to lower grenade damage vs shields a little. I don't know if that's worthwhile. You'd be able to laugh off energy so that'd be good though.
And even if it is good for armour then it still sucks for weapons for some reason. I don't know what's up with that. It's not even close to competitive with the other metals.

 

[Parabalus]

For this mission you don't need persuasion (unlike the previous ones) to do them solo. Just destroy it before you report to Cruzer, that's it.

The dialogue is extremely disappointing, he barely gives you a nod. I stealthed through it and blew it up with TNT, you could prob just genocide them all alone.

What and where did you blow it up? I can't find it and I don't feel like spending forever stealthing around the Rig with my shitty leather stealth gear.

The sonar itself, you pass through the crawlspace and basically loop around two areas, until you get to the other side of the locked gate of the initial area, the sonar is past the area transition on that side.

You can, as the shield. It adds 1 less armor penalty than a TiChrome shield and blocks noticeably more damage.

Only if it's way higher quality. 160 quality super steel blocks up to 45 damage as a shield. 129 quality titanium blocks up to 46. And Expedition buffed Leonie so she regularly sells metals in the 140-150 quality range, so it's not hard to get high quality titanium now either.
Super steel is in a sad position these days. It's good for infused leather and good for sheets in tactical vests/riot gear and that's about it. Not really that super.

What Styg did to super steel infusions is really a disgrace. You get a q160 super steel and can't get over >q130 on several leather infusions because of the nerf.

The coolest part about SS was that it brought up to par the early leathers to late game drops, that's gone.

 

[Blackmill]

I think it's still very good for metal armor. It's mechanical damage reduction is much better than TiChrome. And the smaller armor penalty versus Tungsten steel can make it the better choice of metal if you have high evasion, since evasion reduces the damage your shield takes from grenades, but armor does not. I would probably do a 3/1 or 2/2 split between Super Steel and TiChrome unless I'm playing a stationary AR soldier.

But the nature of DR means you need to get it pretty high for it to be worthwhile, so you're going to end up with like 50% penalty anyway. You're going to need a whole lot of evasion just to lower grenade damage vs shields a little. I don't know if that's worthwhile. You'd be able to laugh off energy so that'd be good though.
And even if it is good for armour then it still sucks for weapons for some reason. I don't know what's up with that. It's not even close to competitive with the other metals.

Yeah, I don't think there's any weapon I'd use super steel for. Anyways, the super steel armor won't always be a better choice, but you can have effectively 31% armor penalty with a 3 super steel + 1 tichrome armor if you take nimble, bodyweight training, and specialized armor sloping. I was considering this for a melee build. I figured with 7 agi I could still reduce incoming grenade damage by about a half, keep most of my mobility, still stealth effectively, and have as much protection as Tungsten armor versus aimed shots since the mechanical damage resistance really isn't too far behind (maybe 2% lower). But I went with a low strength melee build instead. I like that super steel isn't obviously better than other metals, since sometimes I get unlucky with the plate quality, but there are a few builds where I think it's by far the best choice.

 

[Marten Broadcloak]

It's funny how enormously easy - and enjoyable - it is to kill the pirates' boss and his lieutenants while "negociating" with a psi character. However, the real challenge comes after, when you try to exit the boat. Open space, crossbowmen, snipers, men that surround you and prevent you to move. That's perhaps the most difficult fight I ever had in this game. I recommend it.