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FO3 is not nearly as bad as you hystronic nerds make it out to be

Discussion in 'Bethesda Game Studios' started by ThatsRightImInIt, Sep 3, 2019.

  1. Okagron Prophet

    Okagron
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    This an atrocious logic, if you can even call it an actual logic. So because it's technically optional, we should not criticize it? That is fucking stupid. We should criticize mechanics that are poorly made and the VATS in Fallout 3 is absolutely atrocious (it's less in New Vegas because you can actually die in it due to having nowhere as much damage reduction compared to Fallout 3 VATS). Something being "optional" doesn't exempt it from being criticized.

    The VATS was clearly used in Fallout 3 as a crutch for extremely poor shooting mechanics. Designing actual good shooting? Fuck that, half ass the shooting and then have something that completely trivializes it. And yes, it will bother the player because it makes all other options pointless. Why have multiple options for combat with their own pros and cons when you can just have the win button? This creates the illusion of choice.
     
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  2. JackOfOwls Liturgist

    JackOfOwls
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    Oh, I don't want to take that right away from you to criticize. Sorry if you misunderstood. Just making the point that you guys do tend to go and on and on about it when others are able to move along and just get past it. But you're wrong about your last point. VATS wasn't used as a crutch for poor shooting mechanics... it was used as a crutch for poor shooters and those forced to use controllers. There's nothing inherently wrong with the shooting mechanics in terms of being FPSs rather than isometric. I used mouse-aiming so never had these roblems. Fallout 3\New Vegas\FO4 were all smooth, enjoyable experiences for me however I do have sympathy for those that had to play on consoles and especially those like yourself mired in their thoughts that FO3 wasn't like the original FO games and couldn't enjoy it as its own thing.
     
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  3. Quillon Magister

    Quillon
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    :whatho:
     
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  4. rusty_shackleford Arcane

    rusty_shackleford
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    FO3 was never meant to be a tacticool hardcore survival FPS game, it has VATS to appeal to a larger audience.
     
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  5. Nifft Batuff Learned

    Nifft Batuff
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    Was I the only one to consider VATS as the core mechanics for combat and the possibility to shoot enemies outside VATS (i.e. when APs are zero) as a way to cheat?
     
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  6. Squadcar Learned

    Squadcar
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    Generally, when you ask if you were the only one you probably weren't the only one.
     
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  7. normie Scholar Patron Zionist Agent

    normie
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    [​IMG]
     
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  8. Lemming42 Arcane

    Lemming42
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    The biggest load of bullshit with VATS is that it fucking teleports you. If you use a melee weapon and target someone on the other side of a locked fence, or up on a balcony normally only reachable through a locked door, you warp over to them to smack them and then stay there after exiting VATS.

    On the page, VATS is a cunning idea because it does four important things: masks/distracts from the unacceptably bad FPS mechanics, impresses the kids by making everything "cinematic" where you get the dramatic closeup of your hero and then the 360 spinning action camera of the bullet leaving the gun, it makes stats and skills matter slightly more by having your AP determined by Agility and your accuracy determined by weapon skill as in the originals, and it's superficially reminiscent of targeted shots from Fallout. It's just a shame that they fucked it up so much that there's literally never any reason to aim anywhere other than the head, half the time your character shoots the entire clip into a brick wall, and it renders you invincible.
     
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  9. Leitz Learned

    Leitz
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    The VATS was a creative way of implementing turn-based mechanics into a first person shooter-like. It forces you to think in a rythmically tactical playstyle which you normally would in a turn-based game: do an attack in the VATS, run for the next obstacle to hide, enter menu to use stimpak or whatever, exit menu, replenish action points, use VATS one more time. It's far from perfect, but it makes sense.
     
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  10. JackOfOwls Liturgist

    JackOfOwls
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    One reason I really enjoyed the Gamebryo Fallouts was the variety of robots and the homage to classic ones in cinema. Loved robots since I was a kid. I don't remember FO1 & FO2 having a lot of robots though it's been years since I played either of those two games (I'm generally not an extreme metagamer-type that plays & replays certain games literally hundreds of times like some Fallout autists do). It was a joy to play these games with certain mods and have my own small army of robots including mechanized-cyborg deathclaws.
     
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  11. Glop_dweller Augur

    Glop_dweller
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    V.A.T.S. does all shooting calculations from the hip; meaning that the aimed shot comes from their hips; meaning that headshots will hit walls if they are shoulder height—despite having exposed heads.

    Also, because of the absurd way the system works, a PC can leap from a high ledge [death] and enter V.A.T.S. with a close enough target on the ground, and stop mid-air to shoot them, and then land like nothing happened.

    What it does is remove the skill (and responsibility) of attacks from the PC. It means that unlike the Fallout series, it is the player pulling the trigger; using the player's aim. In Fallout 1 & 2 the player indicates the target (of any action or skill), and the PC does their best—which is directly derived from their statistics, education, and personal aptitude....which means all of exactly squat in FO3.
     
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  12. Sigourn Arcane

    Sigourn
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    Fallout 3's skill checks are so fucking bad. Whereas in New Vegas they make sense 90% and are fitting to the skill at hand, in Fallout 3 it seems as if they wrote any "argument" and slapped a skill check on top.
    If this was New Vegas, those would be the joke options in place of the actual, convincing arguments which use legitimate "Speech" or "Science".

    Show Spoiler
    [​IMG]
     
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  13. JackOfOwls Liturgist

    JackOfOwls
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    There were moments in even the vanilla FO3, especially the DLC Broken Steel, where the game is almost pure FPS with adventure\exploration game hybrid elements, with perfectly valid FPS mechanics but of course there are those who are going to continue to just obsess on VATS and how it ruined the game or how FO3 & its followups are not real RPGs (which they aren't, at least not the first one) and they absolutely hate the fact that they're not like FO1 & FO2, and just drone on and on and on instead of just accepting the fact that the Gamebryo Fallouts were a full reboot and basically just based on the original fallout games and were a different thing entirely. It's so tiring to hear these guys talk in circles, over & over again. The collective butthurt is just... staggering.
     
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  14. Sigourn Arcane

    Sigourn
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    JackOfOwls You speak the truth for the most part. Bethesda never intended to make "Fallout 3". They just wanted to make their own game with the Fallout IP, and named it Fallout 3 for that reason. It's also why the game rehashes elements from the first two titles.
    But the hatred towards Fallout 3 is directed at Bethesda for making use of an IP that gave birth to two of the best cRPGs of all time, and an IP that was fairly unique at that. So much that, in my opinion, it is far better than Wasteland.
     
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  15. Glop_dweller Augur

    Glop_dweller
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    But of course—and it is solely because they inappropriately slapped the sequel branding on it, when it is a spin off.

    The situation is no different than had Skyrim shipped with the gameplay of Fallout 1 or Arcanum. Or if Halo 6 released with the gameplay of Halo Wars—or from Mario Cart. The only difference to be found here is that those who deride and scoff about it, are the ones who prefer it that way, instead of the way it should have been. TES fans would have (rightly) had conniption fits.

    But... nooo... When it's someone else's favorite, then it's being childish, or afraid of change... just accept the new, it's so much better that way. Bullcrap. This is just football Fans in a Baseball park:
    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Okagron Prophet

    Okagron
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    Yes, i remember all the shooters in consoles before Fallout 3 using VATS. I totally remember stuff like Halo and FEAR and its expansions using VATS. No, it's used as a crutch because Bethesda doesn't know how to design FPS gameplay. They had to get outside help for Fallout 4 and that is the reason why the shooting isn't a complete disaster in that game (it's still subpar though).

    And Fallout 3's shooting "smooth? Are you serious? The shooting is clunky, weightless and lacks any impact. It feels you are firing toy guns and your character just floats around. This extends to New Vegas to a lesser extent due to several improvements. The shooting is still subpar at best in New Vegas.

    Oh, you misunderstand, i don't think the Bethesda Fallout games are trash because they are not like the 2D games. After all, i like New Vegas. No, they are trash because they all fail terribly at what they are trying to achieve. Fallout 3, 4 and 76 are poorly designed nightmares of epic proportions. From their exploration, to the location placement, to the dungeon design, to the combat, to the RPG elements, to the world design. Not to mention the dump they take on lore and internal consistecy. This "you just hate it because it's different" needs to die.

    The mere fact that you admitted to have played Fallout 3 modded but say people hate it because it's different is complete hypocrisy.

    I like reboots that actively ACKNOWLEDGE past events and treat the first two games as canon. Because that's what a reboot is, right? No, it isn't.
     
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  17. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

    FeelTheRads
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    What's actually tiring is when yet another retard with the same retarded "arguments" shows up to tell everyone who disagrees with them that they're wrong.

    You're not the first retarded butthurt Bethestard to show up here and whine about how Bethesda is totally treated unfairly and how you should accept everything just because it's "different and by the way much better than that old ugly shit lmao" and you won't be the last. You're just another fart in the wind.

    You're not even the first to come up with that "valid FPS mechanics" idiocy. You have no clue what a FPS is. PERIOD.
     
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  18. Sigourn Arcane

    Sigourn
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    Why shove words he didn't say into JackOfOwls' mouth?
    All he said is that you are holding the game to standards the game was never looking to be held up against. And he never even said, or implied, that the game is better than the older games.
     
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  19. JackOfOwls Liturgist

    JackOfOwls
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    In the end I just care about fun, enjoyable games without the politics that types like you obsess on. You're one of those idiots who assumes I'm defending Bethesda. I could give a rat's ass about Bethesda as a developer. The bottom line is I just care about entertaining games and take it on a case by case basis. Fallout 3 was enjoyable to me. Skyrim was not. You really do have way too much emotional baggage to ever be considered rational. I don't know what your particular mental dysfunction is though the symptoms are anger, hostility and intolerance nor do I really care. You're just another butthurt "Fallout Troika good... Fallout Bethesda bad" bitch to me that reduces everything to a simple equation.
     
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  20. JackOfOwls Liturgist

    JackOfOwls
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    In fact, I consider Fallout 1 to be the best cRPG ever produced, and the only one I played more than once. But the anti-Bethesda Troika cultists around here are ridiculous, and adding various obsessive mental illnesses to the mix just compounds the problem. But, hey, this is the Codex, so... Peace out, bro.
     
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  21. JackOfOwls Liturgist

    JackOfOwls
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    Yes, it may be what you like, but it's not what a reboot actually has to be. Luckily I don't have such rigid standards and can probably enjoy a lot more different types of entertainment than you but I don't know you so I won't assume... too much.
     
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  22. commie The Last Marxist Patron

    commie
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    Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2

    'Sup Drog?
     
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  23. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

    FeelTheRads
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    Yawn, boring and tiring. More retarded "I just like to have fun while you're just angry and can't enjoy games that's why you don't like what I like" apologism. Yeah, yeah, if you like to have fun you can enjoy more stuff, why can't everyone have the same fun as me, that's obviously the best way to be. Also the mature way, of course, you're all kids if you hate something. Heard it all before. BORING.

    But do you know what kind of mental dysfunction does one have when they're so severely butthurt whenever something they like is not also liked by every single person on the planet? There must be some sort of serious lack of self confidence if it hurts so bad when something you like is criticized.
    You say you're not a butthurt Bethestard and yet you act exactly to all of those who register here only to cry about how Bethesda is treated unfairly, and how we're just haters and why can't we just enjoy Fallout 3 for what it is and all that shit. You'll have to excuse me if I lumped you in with those unfairly, but I don't see much of a difference.
     
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  24. Okagron Prophet

    Okagron
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    It has nothing to do with what i like, a reboot is literally by definition starting over. From scratch, from the beginning, being the first in the series of anything. Fallout 3 is not that, it actively continues events from the previous games and acknowledges their existence. That's not what a reboot does. A reboot is something like Mortal Kombat 9.

    Or maybe your standards are too low and you just accept mediocrity. Sorry if i like my RPGs to have any kind of substance and not be extremely shallow experiences with terrible design choices. Also, you ignored the rest of my argument which honestly shows where your mentality is. You are not interested in actually countering arguments, you are interested in trying to make everyone that rightfully hate these games into immature children that hate them for no reason.

    It's also really funny how the trajectory of these types of arguments always progress. First they say they hate everything that is new and that people just hate the Gamebryo Fallouts. Then people say they like Fallout New Vegas and suddenly they hate speficialy the Bethesda Fallouts. It's no longer the Gamebryo Fallouts, it's the Bethesda Fallouts.

    And maybe my standards are high, but i sure am proud of them. Makes me appreciate the effort that goes into good design and rightfully criticize terrible design.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2019
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  25. JackOfOwls Liturgist

    JackOfOwls
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    My, my, aren't we elitist. Argue all you want, chief - Fallout 3 was not a bad game for what it was, and the fact that you probably completed and enjoyed at least parts of (and you did play it, right? Since I'm sure you wouldn't be making such lengthy authoritative declarations without at least an informed opinion, right?) shows that you kind of reek of the stink of hypocrisy yourself. Or maybe you're just confused.
     
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