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[LP CYOA] 傳

Discussion in 'Choose Your Own Adventure Land' started by treave, Aug 29, 2013.

  1. Absinthe Erudite

    Absinthe
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    If he turns it over the Huashan it's out of his hands. He doesn't get to boss Huashan around. Also, this might be used as an opportunity to improve relations between the Zhang clan and Bai Jiutian.

    For fuck's sakes stop being so thick. I'll explain this to you one more fucking time. Bai Jiutian does not know for certain that we have the technique. That is why he is trying to obtain confirmation. Therefore, it is possible to convince him that we do not have it. He would probably not waste extra time trying to extract a confession out of what would otherwise be a helpful ally based on suspicions that appear increasingly unlikely.

    No, it wouldn't be on par with Wuxiang Qiankun. Also, if we admit to having the Yuchang Sword we're obviously going to have a shitstorm down our necks, but with any luck our new ten swords faction will make people think twice about that shit. Anyway, this is all for Bai Jiutian to speculate and get confused about. We don't need to argue hypothetical details of what Bai Jiutian might be thinking. The main point is that he will more shit to consider and that will distract him from the possibility that we actually have Wuxiang Qiankun.

    Why the fuck are you assuming Bai Jiutian will be our personal stalker if he decides to help us? Do you even realize how stupid this scenario of yours is? He has his own shit to do and his own angles to pursue, and we have ours. If BJ even tags along on our party, he'd instantly suffer a solid rep drop for association. The point is just that we assist each other from time to time on this endeavor, not that he enters our group.

    Now, you're right that if we don't use Wuxiang Qiankun we won't develop it as quickly, but I also think it's too soon to put our party at risk by revealing we have the Wuxiang Qiankun. Don't forget that the moment people find out we have this technique, all our movements will be watched, which will seriously fuck our chances of finding any other manual along with endangering our party, the fire cult, and the asahina.

    Why are you honestly believing the words of a duplicitous bastard like Bai Jiutian? Consider the possibility that Bai Jiutian is claiming to be certain to pressure us into revealing the Wuxiang Qiankun tech to him? That's why he's doing this stupid routine of "oh I already know I just want confirmation but it's like totally unimportant but I won't give up until I have it." BUT if he really did fucking know for certain we have the skill, he would not be wasting his fucking time trying to confirm it.

    Right, and my point is that depending on what we reveal to him, he can still make that exact same decision. So if he knows we have Wuxiang Qiankun, he could decide that the value of our technique exceeds the value of our assistance, given the risks involved in what we're asking.

    What are you on about? After we switched to order mode he didn't land a single blow. But we opened him up to our unarmed techniques.

    Dude, we already invested 6 months of training into swordsmanship. We literally grabbed all the upgrades for our sword skill and to max our sword technique. We got 3 months for the kenjutsu and +1 swords, 2 more months for another +1 swords, and 1 month for +4 sabers just to get another +1 to our kenjutsu. It's a rank 8 master level technique. We couldn't have gotten it any higher from our training. So stop shitting yourself acting like our sword tech must be crap.

    I dislike defeatist thinking. At any rate, I'm just going to disagree with you here. I think rank 8 sword skill is enough to fend him off coupled with high stats and unarmed techniques. It's going to be a hell of a fight, but that doesn't mean we'd necessarily lose.

    See, if Bai Jiutian beats us, that means we threw just about everything we had at him and still didn't come up with the Wuxiang Qiankun tech. That would indicate that we don't actually have Wuxiang Qiankun at which point if he wants a legendary manual his best bet is to go after the Zhang clan, and he'd need our help.

    That's because in a court of fucking law you don't want to ask questions where unwelcome answers could stab you in the foot. In the real world, you usually ask a question to obtain information, which means that questions are primarily used to obtain answers that you do not know. This is not a court of law. Bai Jiutian is not pleading a case before a judge. Asking a question you know the answer to is a total fucking waste of time normally.

    It's only obvious in your mind. In my mind, there is no real logical basis for what you are saying. This is all mere speculation which you are trying to pass off as hard fact, which I find distasteful.

    He doesn't want to be "powerful" or "good." He wants to be number one and while he was in a good position for it (better now that Zhang Manxing is dead), he's still not going to be an heir and he still needs a legendary technique to establish dominance.

    Wuxiang Qiankun is not ultimate power just yet. Remember the last time we fucking used it? It wasn't an upgrade. It was a downgrade. Profreshinal raised a very valid point when he mentioned that Bai Jiutian would be an expert in countering his own Huashan techniques. In that case, using his own style against him would not even help.
     
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  2. Tribute Scholar

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    Since when does Bai Jiutian ever view Man Tiger Pig as "a helpful ally"? Jing has deliberately cultivated a reputation as a person who will turn on you if he thinks it's amusing enough, because he's terrible at explaining his motives to people he doesn't like. See the Fire Cult Showdown.
     
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  3. Absinthe Erudite

    Absinthe
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    Well, there was Qingcheng where we teamed up to convince Song Lingshu to escape. We also just teamed up and helped him kill Zhang Manxing, whom he wanted gone. Right now we are suggesting to work together to find the Xiaoming Jiuyang manual so it would be in our mutual self-interest to cooperate since we'd both need help. If he wants that manual, he'd want our cooperation. After all the Zhang family hates BJ, so he's not getting it on his own. I think cooperation is a very real possibility right now.
     
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  4. Nevill Arcane

    Nevill
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    That's a lot of "lalala can't hear you" going on in this thread. :lol:

    And how does he do that?

    Well, there is still a matter of him not knowing where the manual is. I guess we will be holding another piece of the information he wants. Of course, what happens from there is up to speculation. He does not know the manual is in the Fire Temple yet.

    If we show him that we have no desire to cooperate then and he can't force us in any way, I can see him making this information public to put the pressure on us. If we aren't going to follow his agenda, he might as well ruin us. That is a danger of A1 and our continued 'cooperation'.

    The chances of success (as in, victory) in A2 are miniscule, and I can see BJ going "if you don't have what I need, I don't need you alive anyway". Maybe not in a sense he'll kill us after we lose, but more in a sense that he will press us harder and harder into revealing the skill to the point where we have to use it or die. I guess the desire to confirm his guess could be strong enough to warrant the potential loss of our potential usefulness (which is limited in the matters that do not concern the manual), and his words about us not leaving until we give him everything we've got strenghthen this hypothesis. I don't see why we should doubt him on this. That is the risk of A2.

    I find it funny we are debating it now when we knew this exact thing would happen once we agree to meet BJ here alone. What did we come here for? Is our mission here done (manxing's death aside)? If it is so bad for Bai to know we have the skill, what are we even doing here?

    At one point it was mentioned that he would cooperate easier if we have something that he wants. Maybe it is better to leave the issue unresolved and leave him hanging? Though I guess that can result in him snapping and deciding this lead is not worth his time.
     
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  5. Esquilax Arcane

    Esquilax
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    Absinthe, if you are so intent on getting Bai Jiutian's cooperation regarding the Zhang family, why do you want to fight him in the first place?

    I mean, if your goal is to bring down the Zhang family and get Bai Jiutian on your side because he knows more about them than we do, I don't understand how fighting him would help you there. Now, whether it's worth revealing our Wuxian Qiankun Skill is a different matter entirely, but I'm pretty sure that there is a big difference between fighting Bai Jiutian with the WQS and just simply telling him that we have it in hopes of working together (i.e. they both have different outcomes).

    I'm inclined to agree with Nevill that taking him on without using our legendary neigong is a terrible idea and a pointless gamble. The whole problem here is that we can't get past BJ's sword to make the fight into a nasty brawl that would favour us. The Wuxian Qiankun Skill is perfect for just this sort of fight - we have stronger inner strength, yet his skills are significantly better than ours. Trying to spin the scenario to make it seem as though using WQS will make us weaker in this fight is completely false.

    B1 isn't a bad option to consider. Yes, we won't get to practice our skill for now, but restraining ourselves from a fight at the moment will at least ensure that Zhang Manxing doesn't escape with his life again. And, well, it might have interesting consequences in the long-term; BJ seems to be as paranoid as the average Codexer, so if we tell him that we possess the manual without any proof, he might suspect that we're making shit up and underestimate us down the road. We probably aren't going to kill him here, even using the WQS, and I'd prefer to have him help us against the Zhang Clan, but I don't think that this will be possible without revealing something on our part.

    I'm still not quite sure what to vote yet, just trying to give a different perspective.
     
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  6. treave Arcane Patron

    treave
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    Ah, yes, forgot to clarify that the point of B2 is to attempt to mislead him into thinking that you learnt some secret Fire Temple techniques which have nothing to do with Wuxiang Qiankun.

    edit:
    :hmmm:
     
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  7. Zero Credibility Arcane

    Zero Credibility
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  8. Absinthe Erudite

    Absinthe
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    I think Bai Jiutian requires convincing that we do not have the Wuxiang Qiankun tech first. I think A2 is our best option for that. We accept his challenge (since he really wants confirmation of whether we've got it) and then fight him as best we can without our Wuxiang Qiankun. I don't think it would particularly antagonize him since he's the one who is trying to fight us.

    Sure.

    Thing is, we already opened up Bai Jiutian to some unarmed moves now that we switched to Order mode, and Raging Claws of the Mad Lion seems to be the kind of qi attack that works from range. So I think we have a solid chance of facing him. I'm also of the opinion that losing to him while we go all-out would only convince him that we really don't have the Wuxiang Qiankun since our all-out came short. If he thinks we don't have Wuxiang Qiankun, I think he's more likely to cooperate with us to get the Xiaoming Jiuyang manual. There's also the possibility that facing him in a serious sword match would increase our sword skill, as treave stated he cannot confirm or deny whether A2 would lead to a sword increase.

    I wouldn't say it makes us weaker, no. It would help, but even though it's a legendary technique I have my doubts about whether we would do better than Bai Jiutian by aping his moves with our rank 1 Wuxiang Qiankun. Seems to me that he would still know his own moves better than us, and there are a few folks who seem to be gunning for the kill with A1 and I just don't see that happening. I think A1 is an option that ultimately compromises Jing and crew in exchange for somewhat better odds in a fight.

    Well, I'm still remembering this post of treave's:
    It seems to me here that our odds of cooperation increase when Bai Jiutian doesn't think we have the Wuxiang Qiankun skill.
     
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  9. Baltika9 Arcane

    Baltika9
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    Actually, even at rank 1, we will mimic him perfectly and remove the gap in sword skills altogether. That's what WQS does. So, yeah, it levels the playing field for us.
     
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  10. Absinthe Erudite

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    Even if we mimic him perfectly, that doesn't answer Profreshinal's point that Bai Jiutian with his high sword skill can easily come up with counters to his own techniques on the fly. We wont have that same luxury with our lower sword skill and familiarity and I suspect our moves would be very predictable for him.

    It might remove the gap in technique, but I'm not so sure about removing the gap in skill.
     
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  11. Baltika9 Arcane

    Baltika9
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    If he makes a counter on the fly, then we will copy it immediately and he's back at square one. We're copying the dude's movements.
     
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  12. Absinthe Erudite

    Absinthe
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    In the words of Profreshinal: "I'm sure BJ is very comfortable counter-counter-countering Huashan techniques. WQS is strong but it's only lvl 1 and it's not yet going supersaiyan."

    Problem is, I think Bai Jiutian will still be a step ahead the whole time throughout this counter game.
     
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  13. Kipeci Magister

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    He can easily come up with counters to any of his own moves, even his own counters, but fortunately his skills won't allow him to come up with any counter for our special Japanese skills in A2.

    :roll:
     
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  14. Nevill Arcane

    Nevill
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    Ah, but see, this is not what I was saying at all. Trying to take him down without necessary skills or techniques is a terrible idea. Taking him on, on the other hand, is likely to merely result in us losing. But whether it is going to be that bad is another question entirely.

    Did you consider the possibility that if zhang is really alive, as that is what you seem to be hoping for, and if BJ audibly confirms that we have WQS, we might be in an even deeper shit than him?

    Do you also realize that zhang escaping can be that one factor that throws BJ off our tail in A2? He does not gain anything by killing us if manxing makes it to Master Nie alive.

    Personally, I am still hoping for a secret D option.
     
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  15. Absinthe Erudite

    Absinthe
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    I didn't say he couldn't come up with counters for this, but I did say that it's harder for him. Heck, I'll quote treave again:
     
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  16. Baltika9 Arcane

    Baltika9
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    Okay. Then we copy his counter-counter-counter. We're copying his movements and qi flow, not his thought process. What he does, we do. And then we bide our time to close in and fistfuck his skull.
     
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  17. Kipeci Magister

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    Let the Zhang clan send their regards, we trashed their goons once and can do it again.

    edit:
    I saw the quote, but it's interesting how you spin the Japanese techniques as some sort of failsafe that will cream BJ when coupled with an almighty perception boost of plus two while access to the entirety of BJ's repertoire of moves performed at his level of skill is just all going to be blocked and worthless as he effortlessly devises counters for the counters of the counters of his moves.
     
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  18. Absinthe Erudite

    Absinthe
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    Kipeci, did you forget the Zhang clan has Xiaoming Jiuyang manual now? EDIT: Also, I never said that was a failsafe. You read that all on your own. I said our kenjutsu also has its own benefits which you are overlooking.

    Baltika9, so you will let him stay a step ahead the whole time because you just want to bide your time for that one opportunity? Giving up the initiative is bad, you know. But I think we're getting too sidetracked into a hypothetical fight. The main point is simply that Bai Jiutian is probably more able to take on his own techniques than we are while using his techs.
     
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  19. Esquilax Arcane

    Esquilax
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    We don't need to be a better swordsman than Bai Jiutian to defeat him. We need the mimicking abilities from WQS to be a good enough swordsman to keep BJ on his toes and overwhelm him so that we can close in on him with our unarmed techniques, where we'd have the advantage. I reckon that's what Jing would do in A1. Look, there are plenty of downsides in A1, you don't need to makeup ridiculous hypothetical scenarios like Bai Jiutian creating an endless series of counter-counter-counter-techniques on the fly to kick our ass anyways so because of that we should vote A2 and +1 SWORDS.

    In any case, this is a terrible line of argumentation.

    Anyways, I am strongly considering B2 at the moment; we tell Bai Jiutian that we're Lord of the Fire Temple and mislead him into thinking that we've delved into some other skill. Given that Yunzi and Armaiti are both with us, I think he'd buy it. We'd convince him that we're powerful enough with our secret Fire Cult skills that maybe he shouldn't fuck with us here, but at the same time, since we aren't (to his knowledge) in the possession of one of the Three Manuals, he might be willing to work with us to take down the Zhang family. The major downside here is that we'd have to double-cross BJ perfectly before he manages to reveal to the orthodox world that Ahura is toast.

    This is a gamble, but given BJ's arrogance, I think that misleading him along these lines can really pay off in the near-future. Let him think he's won over us and gotten the truth out of us, then make him pay for underestimating us once we go to greet the Zhang Clan.

    B2, though I'm still very open to flopping. There's just a ton of danger in revealing that Ahura is dead to the Fire Cult's worst enemy here.
     
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  20. profreshinal Arcane

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    I'm sure he can think of something. If he fails to do it himself he can always tell to his scheming mommy while keeping it hidden from the Zangs.

    BJ is not going to try and help us get a second legendary skill. he wants to be the strongest just like he always has been, helping someone to become stronger then him with no way to beat that person sounds implausable to me. BJ is going to want that WQS skill and trying to take it from vagabond MTP looks a lot easier then trying to grab something from the influential Zhang clan.
     
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  21. Absinthe Erudite

    Absinthe
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    Esquilax, I don't think BJ trusts Jing enough to fall for that. The main reason I go with A2 to deceive him is because I think that's as close to proof as we can provide to sway him.

    What do you think of the scenario I mention where even if we lose to Bai Jiutian, he'd probably side with us anyway since we've been defeated and still had no Wuxiang Qiankun to show, so he'd want to chase the Xiaoming Jiuyang manual?
     
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  22. Nevill Arcane

    Nevill
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    Is that an answer to my post?

    Because I don't think it will only be zhang clan who will send their regards. If manxing wants you extra dead - and he does - he will ensure everyone and their mother will hear of it.

    Isn't he doing what he is doing to break free from his mommy who seems to be in a bed with zhang clan, and learn to defend himself without relying on her?
     
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  23. Kipeci Magister

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    Let them come at us, we need some decent villains to work up to trash and there's really no one who deserves it more than them it seems.

    As for the kenjutsu, yes, it has benefits, we know all these little tricks that artificially boost our skill level with swords in the realm of that one style. I don't view small increases in effectiveness for enhanced perception as being anywhere near enough to make us have a good chance to take on BJ with our current sword skills, though, and that's where I part from you.

    That is good, let the mothers come! We need much more practice against decently skilled foes, if they're willing to supply the men I see no reason not to allow them.
     
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  24. Absinthe Erudite

    Absinthe
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    Nevill, no, I'd say Bai Jiutian is doing what he can to benefit himself. His scheming mommy is a problem if Huashan is holding out on him while the Zhang family is dicking him, but if he can get legendary techniques, prestige, and upwards mobility, then I think he could just as well stay with Huashan.

    Kipeci, I'm worried they could trash our crew though, if not us.

    As for the kenjutsu, well, yeah, I do think you're underrating the shift from 7 perception to 9. I already mentioned how it improves our sword techniques while giving us better insights into Bai Jiutian's confusing/deceptive swordsmanship, but for the most part I just think it's good enough to create small openings for our unarmed techniques. After all, it's already accomplished that in this update, so I think we can do it again.
     
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  25. Kipeci Magister

    Kipeci
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    Any of them destroyed provide that much more reason for vengeance, such is the way of the narrative. Although, if we assemble a harem large enough then it'll be tantamount to attacking an army to do anything near us... I wonder about how the logistics of food are being handled if Jing and Cao'er's sister are the only decent cooks.

    And how long until BJ devotes his significant skills in perception (probably greater than our own) and so on to devising counters for the one style of swordsmanship we are proficient in? If you're arguing that a greatly skilled sword user with high perception should come up with counters on the fly, well, that doesn't exactly bode well for us if we go after him in A2. Unless you're feeling confident on taking him on with our self-developed style as a back-up, which I'm... not.

    We can definitely make a few openings, but we weren't able to capitalize on any of them to a real effect and once he gets the hang of our weird sword moves then we're essentially screwed. It's a race against time in which we can only occasionally strike ineffective blows while any errant strike from him in finding the same can do us severe damage.
     
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