Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Beta Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Gyor]

I'm curious how Lich and Angel Mythic Spellbook interacts with Shaman class, who are fullcasters.

 

[mediocrepoet]

How far can you go in Beta?

They said up to Chapter 4, IIRC. I don't recall where they said that to link it though.

EDIT: Actually basically every article about the beta says the prologue and first four chapters.

 

[Shadenuat]

I'm curious how Lich and Angel Mythic Spellbook interacts with Shaman class, who are fullcasters.

A Mythic spellbook is a completely separate Spellbook that upgrades slower as you get Mythic levels. You get a very small selection of spell slots (like 3-2-1) and you also get to choose some extra spells to customise it. For that reason if you want to fully utilise it (by, for example, having on Shaman druid, cleric and mage buffs at the same time) you are more or less forced into picking +4 spells/level. The option to mix this stuff is pretty powerful and personally pushes me to full classes without any dips.

EDIT: Actually basically every article about the beta says the prologue and first four chapters.

Oh very well so I'm finished then. I am surprised somewhat at how stable generally game is and most quests compared to PKM. (not FPS tho. unlike PKM this one runs like shite on my system)

 

[ChildInTime]

Here, have a datamined girl Angel portrait. Guess it will go as we predicted - one portrait for each gender, maybe not for Aeon though.

 

[Xamenos]

Another question: why is option #3 Lawful? Since when is allowing people to be vigilantes considered Lawful? That's a textbook Neutral reply.

Yeah, I feel that Lawful and Chaotic there should be swapped.

Also, exploring random basements and coming across random Liches were some of my most vivid memories of Baldur's Gate 2. I am mildly disappointed Wrath's Lich doesn't open with a Time Stop, unlike those back then, but I'll take it.

 

[Shadenuat]

Here, have a datamined girl Angel portrait

What is with their artist and female jawlines.

 

[Delterius]

Sooo... apparently Trickster pranks a rapist by turning him into a woman and sending him into a brothel to be... well... :D

Spoiler

Delterius

tricksters can't stop winning

 

[mediocrepoet]

Another question: why is option #3 Lawful? Since when is allowing people to be vigilantes considered Lawful? That's a textbook Neutral reply.

Yeah, I feel that Lawful and Chaotic there should be swapped.

I disagree, the lawful reply is getting into retributive justice which is "lawful" in the sense of allowing victims to mete out punishment for the way they've been treated. Lawful alignment doesn't necessarily mean according to given cultural laws, so much as in line with order as a metaphysical concepts.
For similar reason, the chaotic option is appropriate since it involve changing the nature of an entity to something other in order to mess with it and also serve a sort of justice. I think this one also is the sort of thing that a lawful character isn't likely to even consider as an option in the first place.

 

[Xamenos]

Another question: why is option #3 Lawful? Since when is allowing people to be vigilantes considered Lawful? That's a textbook Neutral reply.

Yeah, I feel that Lawful and Chaotic there should be swapped.

I disagree, the lawful reply is getting into retributive justice which is "lawful" in the sense of allowing victims to mete out punishment for the way they've been treated. Lawful alignment doesn't necessarily mean according to given cultural laws, so much as in line with order as a metaphysical concepts.
For similar reason, the chaotic option is appropriate since it involve changing the nature of an entity to something other in order to mess with it and also serve a sort of justice. I think this one also is the sort of thing that a lawful character isn't likely to even consider as an option in the first place.

Retributive justice does not really work in a lawful society. Taking the law in your own hands is almost the definition of a chaotic alignment. And I was talking about the chaotic option to kill him yourself, that trickster shit is obviously chaotic. Unlike the random slaves, you are the commander of the Crusade and have the authority to sentence and execute criminals.

 

[Shadenuat]

You people completely miss the context of that dialogue, just like with other screenshots. You being "commander of crusades" has nothing to do with anything at that point in the story anymore.

 

[Utgard-Loki]

Retributive justice does not really work in a lawful society. Taking the law in your own hands is almost the definition of a chaotic alignment.

no,it isn't. a hellknight that will not abide by the law of the land, but by his own strict code is not "chaotic" anything for example. lawful and chaotic is not about following the "law".

 

[mediocrepoet]

Another question: why is option #3 Lawful? Since when is allowing people to be vigilantes considered Lawful? That's a textbook Neutral reply.

Yeah, I feel that Lawful and Chaotic there should be swapped.

I disagree, the lawful reply is getting into retributive justice which is "lawful" in the sense of allowing victims to mete out punishment for the way they've been treated. Lawful alignment doesn't necessarily mean according to given cultural laws, so much as in line with order as a metaphysical concepts.
For similar reason, the chaotic option is appropriate since it involve changing the nature of an entity to something other in order to mess with it and also serve a sort of justice. I think this one also is the sort of thing that a lawful character isn't likely to even consider as an option in the first place.

Retributive justice does not really work in a lawful society. Taking the law in your own hands is almost the definition of a chaotic alignment. And I was talking about the chaotic option to kill him yourself, that trickster shit is obviously chaotic. Unlike the random slaves, you are the commander of the Crusade and have the authority to sentence and execute criminals.

I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure I agree. I think it would depend on how it's undertaken. The earliest concepts of laws were retributive in nature. An eye for an eye, etc. and does not have any concepts of say, due process. In the scenario presented (I haven't played it), it looks like the option given to the slaves is controlled such that it's not going to have implications on the rest of society or others, hence no net disorderly implication other than the perpetrator getting what he deserves, so to speak.

 

[Ghulgothas]

Here, have a datamined girl Angel portrait. Guess it will go as we predicted - one portrait for each gender, maybe not for Aeon though.

Looks like they plucked her straight from my sunday school nativity scene. But on that note, here're the companion portraits for the first three members of the Lich's graveguard, the replacement companions.

 

[Shadenuat]

Hmm I didn't get the 3d one. They're not a replacement tho, but addition to party. No particular imagination with stats/builds either and Undead, aside from ignoring annoying death crystals, feels somewhat underpowered due to no potions/no enlarge/no getting up after death (I think, but that's also bugged since there are bugs with rest. skeleton pet resurrects on standard rest).

 

[Xamenos]

Retributive justice does not really work in a lawful society. Taking the law in your own hands is almost the definition of a chaotic alignment.

no,it isn't. a hellknight that will not abide by the law of the land, but by his own strict code is not "chaotic" anything for example. lawful and chaotic is not about following the "law".

Your hypothetical is not relevant to the scenario we are discussing. That scene happens in the Abyss, so local law is irrelevant. And do you really think a Hellknight would let the slaves kill their former master instead of executing them himself? And if anything, the player character is equivalent to the hellknight, enforcing his law on the locals. But there is a huge difference between enforcing the same law you have been vested with on everyone, and empowering everyone to enforce their own personal form of justice. The first is lawful, the second is chaotic.

I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure I agree. I think it would depend on how it's undertaken. The earliest concepts of laws were retributive in nature. An eye for an eye, etc. and does not have any concepts of say, due process. In the scenario presented (I haven't played it), it looks like the option given to the slaves is controlled such that it's not going to have implications on the rest of society or others, hence no net disorderly implication other than the perpetrator getting what he deserves, so to speak.

We have long moved past an eye for an eye as basis for law. If you really want to talk eye-for-an-eye as Lawful, then you should be arguing in favor of the Trickster option, which we both agree is chaotic as fuck. That's him LITERALLY getting exactly what he'd been giving.

 

[mediocrepoet]

I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure I agree. I think it would depend on how it's undertaken. The earliest concepts of laws were retributive in nature. An eye for an eye, etc. and does not have any concepts of say, due process. In the scenario presented (I haven't played it), it looks like the option given to the slaves is controlled such that it's not going to have implications on the rest of society or others, hence no net disorderly implication other than the perpetrator getting what he deserves, so to speak.

We have long moved past an eye for an eye as basis for law. If you really want to talk eye-for-an-eye as Lawful, then you should be arguing in favor of the Trickster option, which we both agree is chaotic as fuck. That's him LITERALLY getting exactly what he'd been giving.

So what we've done in our modern technological society has implications on what's considered lawful in a fantasy setting that's broadly medieval-ish? Ok. Agree to disagree.

 

[Shadenuat]

God alignment fags are worst of rpg world.

 

[Xamenos]

So what we've done in our modern technological society has implications on what's considered lawful in a fantasy setting that's broadly medieval-ish? Ok. Agree to disagree.

A) The past is not one huge, amorphous, unchanging blob. Societies evolved even then. Even a medieval society had moved past an-eye-for-an-eye.
B) Trickster LITERALLY gives you an-eye-for-an-eye in this situation, and yet is not Lawful. Why are you not addressing this?

God alignment fags are worst of rpg world.

Yes, how DARE people discuss things in a forum?

 

[mediocrepoet]

So what we've done in our modern technological society has implications on what's considered lawful in a fantasy setting that's broadly medieval-ish? Ok. Agree to disagree.

A) The past is not one huge, amorphous, unchanging blob. Societies evolved even then. Even a medieval society had moved past an-eye-for-an-eye.
B) Trickster LITERALLY gives you an-eye-for-an-eye in this situation, and yet is not Lawful. Why are you not addressing this?

Whether a society has changed its ideals from an eye for an eye or not doesn't imply that that behaviour is not lawful. Consider lawful evil behaviour, for instance. If nothing else, the concept of this trade is generally "fair".

The retributive part of the chaotic option is largely irrelevant in that it involves fundamentally altering the nature of the person and of reality and is therefore, not really a lawful response, whereas the other option is empowering the victims to seek justice which is arguably one of the main aims of law. I never claimed that being retributive is a sufficient condition for lawful behaviour. If it was, Batman would be a lawful superhero even though no one would suggest this.

 

[Delterius]

a fey cursing a person because their whim took them there is chaotic, those who disagree with this statement are wrong because i'm right

 

[Shadenuat]

i will just wait for desuguy with his screenshots while reading class descriptions on english this time.

That's the conclusion of her quest

yeah something to add about Wenduag.

to be fair to her writing, at minimum it's consistent through the game. She is always doing something in every chapter. Compare to Kamelia which feels like she was just put into game almost randomly, Aru which is, very fanfic tbh, Nenio is a joke for all 4 chapters I played, unlike Jubilost who is a jokey character but he is completely in tune with the narrative of the story.

Also Chapter 4 shows what happens when you try hard into Mask of Betrayer but you have no MCA, and no Ziets. A JRPG writing without MCA is just a JRPG.

 

[Desiderius]

Scandalously undeveloped plot point (?) of confronting my doppelgargoyle comes to a head:

Spoiler

To continue a pattern I also trigger this one early. I've got long buffs and medium (min/lvl) buffs up, but not the fun rnd/lvl stuff. So no summons. Should be interesting. Nulk opens with Hold Person, Mass but I just got down spamming Owl's Wisdom anticipating just such an occasion. Of course Paladins were born for this. MC lucked out (that alchemist range problem again) but picked up another +4 vs Mind-affecting from Azata original ability lvl 2 just after this fight. Sos owns at all the things.

So Haste I think might have helped here? Feel like AB should be mid-teens maybe. No worries, on core it connects. Nenio firing up some fire for the Ghouls.

Can anyone explain how Casting Defensively is calculated? Comes up a lot with Sosiel so curious.

Got him this time as Lann recovers from Flurry bugging out (you have to change equipment twice to turn it back on) to take out the main threat here, a Ghoul Creeper. Nice work Lann. What is Ember doing? Who knows.

Maybe the Stagger stopped the Free Action Full Round (wtf?) Death-Stealing Gaze? In any event will be good against bosses with 12 attax.

Oh, putting Protective luck on Seelah who's tanking. Smite Evil helps her against Nulk who seems to only be interesting in casting anyway, and Veil helps vs Undead. Love the Veil spells - last forever and stack all day. Smilo also going after ghouls instead of boss. Top notch play people.

Ranger Ghoul with Favored Enemy Humans. Nice touch. Missile Shield would be pretty good for Seelah since she already has Shield Focus.

Some examples of Mythic Feats. MC gets Mythic Potion Brewing, Lann Mythic Deadly Aim, Seelah DDisplay, Nenio Spell Pen, Sos and Ember Sorcerous Reflex (first spell quickened if two levels lower than highest available, so next lvl Sosiel gets quick Prayer).

So after you kill the big boss you go downhill and there's three more to try out your new powers on.



Getting lazy so just have long buffs on (hour or more). Protective Luck the go to.

Oops. Making the save still leaves you paralyzed for a round.

We bring Nenio along to bail our sorry asses out of fixes like this. You get a mez, and you get a mez, and you get a mez...

This lvl 20 Demon popped up in my backlines while chasing an Incubus feared by Marching Terror (Sosiel's Glaive). Poor Ember.

Lann Prefect Strike doing work again. A lot less Stat boosting equipment than in P:K so you rely on buffs. Notice they're all missing here.

Still beat him down. Looking like Core difficulty will need to give way to something a little more challenging.

This one drains levels, but I had the shriveled hand ready for Tiger to tank and Lann was getting tired of all this shit and decided to wrap things up. She drops first decent Bracers (+4) but easy enough for Ember to spam Mage Armor.

Next: Seige of Drezen

 

[Desiderius]

I'm curious how Lich and Angel Mythic Spellbook interacts with Shaman class, who are fullcasters.

A Mythic spellbook is a completely separate Spellbook that upgrades slower as you get Mythic levels. You get a very small selection of spell slots (like 3-2-1) and you also get to choose some extra spells to customise it. For that reason if you want to fully utilise it (by, for example, having on Shaman druid, cleric and mage buffs at the same time) you are more or less forced into picking +4 spells/level. The option to mix this stuff is pretty powerful and personally pushes me to full classes without any dips.

EDIT: Actually basically every article about the beta says the prologue and first four chapters.

Oh very well so I'm finished then. I am surprised somewhat at how stable generally game is and most quests compared to PKM.

Great job Shad. Very informative and entertaining.

 

[Shadenuat]

Next: Seige of Drezen

Chapter 1-3 is something you really want to save and savour. Because Chapter 4 has a bit too much of smacking packs of demons and then the mines, which really don't feel like they belong to that level (16+) of play anymore. Game still lacks magic play so much smackbashing of demonic bashsmackers occures. And do note, developers did not implement ALL the demon packs in C4 yet! Some are [Draft]. Ugh.
Also small corridors again. Pet lovers or summoners would need some antibutthurt pills for this gaem. There are even places where only 1 (one) character can fit sometimes, it's really funny.

Also "improved" demons are just annoying to fight with. There are more of "it doesn't die, becomes invulnerable and then transforms" stuff. Some of them bugged out for me and continued to attack while being invulnerable.

On the other hand early game generally puts you against something which is still new and varied. My curiosity was peaked by Drezen illusionists with mirror images and illusion webs. Designers also love them sonic stuff and bard charm effects. Sadly options are still mostly fall into killing them or stacking saving throws, but early game you do not have powerful cloaks or feats to waste mostly. You don't even get many stat boosting items.

Chapter 4 changes everything though. It's +5 weapons, +3 or better cloaks fall from trash enemies, you get 1 million gold after selling trash you got by clearing various random fights alone. The final boss of the chapter was supra lady which *hits hard* and has "high ac" and 4-5 demons casting spells but, now party has saves at +30 or better so she rushed me and I killed her in 2 rounds.

Gib mage duels.

Also balance of mythic is strange. I was at 16+ level (and to avoid bugs I didn't do some quests) at the end of beta but only 5 level mythic? 6?
Most of the game you spend in ~3 mythic levels. That means that when you DO get a lot of stuff you just passed so many challenges you actually could have used that stuff (like Lich Spells) for.
Same with some items, like there is ring that gives ice spells starting level 4 spell and you get it when you already cast level 8 spells.

Also balance in mythics is pretty funny. Like get a +1d6 sneak. Or a bit more bab. Or some damage on every third arrow. ....Or get invulnerability for 2 rounds and you don't die. it's funny to watch deadliest enemy archers pummel invulnerable Ember for 2 rounds while all their allies die and my fighters then chunk them.

 

[Xamenos]

Whether a society has changed its ideals from an eye for an eye or not doesn't imply that that behaviour is not lawful. Consider lawful evil behaviour, for instance. If nothing else, the concept of this trade is generally "fair".

The retributive part of the chaotic option is largely irrelevant in that it involves fundamentally altering the nature of the person and of reality and is therefore, not really a lawful response, whereas the other option is empowering the victims to seek justice which is arguably one of the main aims of law. I never claimed that being retributive is a sufficient condition for lawful behaviour. If it was, Batman would be a lawful superhero even though no one would suggest this.

One of the main aims of the law is in fact the very opposite of empowering the victim to seek justice. That's how you get personal vendettas and feuds. I agree that Batman is a chaotic hero, but I don't see how he is any different to the former slaves in the siituation we're discussing. It's vigilante justice, no matter how you cut it.

I also do not understand why you draw the line at "fundamentally altering the nature of the person and of reality" and consider those inherently chaotic.

Desiderius RE: Defensive Casting: Concentration checks are 1d20 + Caster Level + Ability score modifier + Other modifiers (like Combat Casting). Defensive Casting is a Concentration check to avoid triggering an Attack of Opportunity when casting in melee. DC is 15 + 2*Spell Level. If you take damage while casting a spell you also make a Concentration check to not lose it, with a DC of 10 + Damage taken + Spell Level.