Underrail: The Incline Awakens

[Blaine]

For ages now, I've wanted to try a melee knife + throwing knife build. The issue is that despite each relying heavily on DEX and both being knives, they are also both massive feat vacuums, and very few crit-related feats (or even Expertise!) apply to throwing knives. The synergy is middling at best, although both can benefit from poisons thanks to the fairly recent addition of applying poisons.

"Hang on, though," I said to myself, recalling Sheepherder's famous Dominating throwing build that utilized poisons and predated the throwing knife buff, "Hypertoxicity also applies to traps!". This is significant mainly in that it reminded me of Traps.

The chief problem with both knives and throwing knives is when you run into an entire expansion filled with heavily-armored automatons that can't be poisoned and aren't human or even living (which fucks up various melee knife feats). However, this ceases to be anything more than a logistics issue if you're able to liberally utilize high-yield explosive mines and high-yield explosive grenades.

I'm finally almost content with a throwing knives build. I believe that grenades + Grenadier and traps + Quick Tinkering are the answer to my concerns. Furthermore, a Hypertoxicity-enhanced poisoned bear trap synergizes perfectly with a Hypertoxicity-enhanced poisoned throwing knife and Opportunist.

https://underrail.info/build/?HgMQB...AbFlHDk15cL1hAKcKzdj7io7EF4qi6BOKouwLivY4E378

Yes, it's a bit daffy as I've currently got it tweaked. I really should at least fit Uncanny Dodge in there with enough points for 3-4 dodges at least, even if only because I have a truckload of extra skill points due to lack of any need for Traps to be pumped to the max. Considering I'm using both traps and grenades, I might be able to get away with omitting Pinning, putting Uncanny Dodge where Grenadier is currently slotted, and dragging Grenadier to Pinning's slot. Does anyone know whether Uncanny Dodge relies on base or effective Dodge?

I've left PER at 5 because, since this build includes traps, I've got at least a vain hope of not bumbling into every trap—and with detection goggles, I might not always be surprised by stealthed enemies.

Yes, I insist on Interloper. Trap Expert is negotiable, Interloper isn't. I'm not trying to be a cock, it's just that Interloper is the obvious choice to replace with a MORE POWER! feat, and although I'm well aware, I'm not going to do it.

 

[oldmanpaco]

It's inherent that some attributes will be better than others. The spiritual grandfather of underrail handles this not by attempting to hammer them into equality but by adjusting their cost.

That's just another way of hammering them into equality—essentially, paying 1.5x points in the point-buy system for an attribute that is 1.5x as useful. Once you reach the threshold of charging 2x the cost for one attribute, you might as well split it into two different attributes.

In reality, of course, there are plenty of guys who have 20/15 vision, are handsome, have a great head of hair, are very fit, sociable, smart, and possibly highly skilled—most of these guys whom I've actually met are retired Navy or Air Force aviators. Usually, they decide to build an entire farm by hand, start a contracting business that rakes in an unholy amount of money, land a cushy job with their shoo-in qualifications and take up oil painting, or who-knows-what. It's good to be very talented and blessed.

Point-buy systems, of course, were invented by standard-issue dweebs. That's us. God is laughing at us right now.

Come on man, I don't need to read this on a Sunday afternoon.

 

[Parabalus]

For ages now, I've wanted to try a melee knife + throwing knife build. The issue is that despite each relying heavily on DEX and both being knives, they are also both massive feat vacuums, and very few crit-related feats (or even Expertise!) apply to throwing knives. The synergy is middling at best, although both can benefit from poisons thanks to the fairly recent addition of applying poisons.

"Hang on, though," I said to myself, recalling Sheepherder's famous Dominating throwing build that utilized poisons and predated the throwing knife buff, "Hypertoxicity also applies to traps!". This is significant mainly in that it reminded me of Traps.

The chief problem with both knives and throwing knives is when you run into an entire expansion filled with heavily-armored automatons that can't be poisoned and aren't human or even living (which fucks up various melee knife feats). However, this ceases to be anything more than a logistics issue if you're able to liberally utilize high-yield explosive mines and high-yield explosive grenades.

I'm finally almost content with a throwing knives build. I believe that grenades + Grenadier and traps + Quick Tinkering are the answer to my concerns. Furthermore, a Hypertoxicity-enhanced poisoned bear trap synergizes perfectly with a Hypertoxicity-enhanced poisoned throwing knife and Opportunist.

https://underrail.info/build/?HgUGC...2sAAAAAAABhATkdMTV_fjMWSwLChUcpwrXCpMKmw4zfvw

Yes, it's a bit daffy as I've currently got it tweaked. I really should at least fit Uncanny Dodge in there with enough points for 3-4 dodges at least, even if only because I have a truckload of extra skill points due to lack of any need for Traps to be pumped to the max. Considering I'm using both traps and grenades, I might be able to get away with omitting Pinning, putting Uncanny Dodge where Grenadier is currently slotted, and dragging Grenadier to Pinning's slot. Does anyone know whether Uncanny Dodge relies on base or effective Dodge?

I've left PER at 5 because, since this build includes traps, I've got at least a vain hope of not bumbling into every trap—and with detection goggles, I might not always be surprised by stealthed enemies.

Yes, I insist on Interloper. Trap Expert is negotiable, Interloper isn't. I'm not trying to be a cock, it's just that Interloper is the obvious choice to replace with a MORE POWER! feat, and although I'm well aware, I'm not going to do it.

Think you linked the wrong one, this is a gun build?

But if you have traps skill you don't need PER, to detect traps either trap detection from trap skill or normal detection is used.

 

[Sam Bixby]

Anyone know if sword is better with strength or dexterity?

I wish I could answer this, but I can't. Swords seem very schizophrenic to me and appear to work best with Strength, Dexterity, Agility, and Dexterity all 6-7+ due to the various feats you'll want (possibly even Will 5, if including Ripper)—and bear in mind that if you leave Strength at 5 and receive a Crippling Strike, which you certainly will at some point since absolutely 100% of all knife- and fist-wielding enemies have the feat and your build is nearly guaranteed to be sporting mediocre or even dumped PER (stealthed knifers were a real bitch on my sledgehammer tin can from way back), you're well on your way down the road to fucked.

On top of all this, no matter the sword build (and I'm sure someone has made a good one), they're all extremely RNG-dependent because that is built right into the feats. You can't entirely dump either STR or DEX really, so your base attribute bonus to your melee skill is guaranteed to be slightly mediocre, although accuracy tends to be less of an issue with melee than for ranged.

I had a lot of fun with a spear build using a riot shield and DOMINATED crawlers for the first time I can ever recall (due to the blocking with riot shield and etc.), but whenever I try to make a sword build, I always give up.

Go with 5 STR, 18 DEX. If you want to use Claymore use food and/or Rathound Regalia. Decapitate isn't worth it. Take Escape Artist and Fancy Footwork.

You won't lack damage, crits go over 2k regularly. Recommend TM for when Flurry misses.

If you want to use metal armor go 1-2 points higher STR, but I don't like tank melee too much.

Something like this

https://underrail.info/build/?HgUQB...AAAAH0AAAATwrNOBsKMwo1cS8KjK8KH4rKIBeKyiQLfvw

as a base, then do whatever with the rest.

Is Ripper worth the 2 points in will?

Yes, it's a huge damage boost. If you're running PSI the 5 WILL isn't much of a loss, also opens up many WILL checks with consumables.

You could drop for something else, I doubt you'd have much trouble either way.

Thanks for the info on this, one other thing do you know what type of leather armor is worth crafting for DEX build?

 

[Parabalus]

Anyone know if sword is better with strength or dexterity?

I wish I could answer this, but I can't. Swords seem very schizophrenic to me and appear to work best with Strength, Dexterity, Agility, and Dexterity all 6-7+ due to the various feats you'll want (possibly even Will 5, if including Ripper)—and bear in mind that if you leave Strength at 5 and receive a Crippling Strike, which you certainly will at some point since absolutely 100% of all knife- and fist-wielding enemies have the feat and your build is nearly guaranteed to be sporting mediocre or even dumped PER (stealthed knifers were a real bitch on my sledgehammer tin can from way back), you're well on your way down the road to fucked.

On top of all this, no matter the sword build (and I'm sure someone has made a good one), they're all extremely RNG-dependent because that is built right into the feats. You can't entirely dump either STR or DEX really, so your base attribute bonus to your melee skill is guaranteed to be slightly mediocre, although accuracy tends to be less of an issue with melee than for ranged.

I had a lot of fun with a spear build using a riot shield and DOMINATED crawlers for the first time I can ever recall (due to the blocking with riot shield and etc.), but whenever I try to make a sword build, I always give up.

Go with 5 STR, 18 DEX. If you want to use Claymore use food and/or Rathound Regalia. Decapitate isn't worth it. Take Escape Artist and Fancy Footwork.

You won't lack damage, crits go over 2k regularly. Recommend TM for when Flurry misses.

If you want to use metal armor go 1-2 points higher STR, but I don't like tank melee too much.

Something like this

https://underrail.info/build/?HgUQB...AAAAH0AAAATwrNOBsKMwo1cS8KjK8KH4rKIBeKyiQLfvw

as a base, then do whatever with the rest.

Is Ripper worth the 2 points in will?

Yes, it's a huge damage boost. If you're running PSI the 5 WILL isn't much of a loss, also opens up many WILL checks with consumables.

You could drop for something else, I doubt you'd have much trouble either way.

Thanks for the info on this, one other thing do you know what type of leather armor is worth crafting?

Mostly Infused Rathound Leather for the crit %, but you can run Rathound Regalia or Ninja without much loss. Other armor is for some stat checks or particular enemies.

For boots you need tabis, usually black cloth, mutated dog when dealing with acid.

 

[Blaine]

Think you linked the wrong one, this is a gun build?

Oops.

https://underrail.info/build/?HgMQB...AbFlHDk15cL1hAKcKzdj7io7EF4qi6BOKouwLivY4E378

But if you have traps skill you don't need PER, to detect traps either trap detection from trap skill or normal detection is used.

You're largely correct, although I seem to recall that if you have high PER, it's slightly hybridized and your Trap Detection will be a bit higher than with Traps alone.

If I were to dump PER entirely, I could drop to 6 INT and go 10 AGI. But then where to fit Blitz and/or Strider?

 

[lukaszek]

Blaine as I was saying recently, there is actually very little synergy between stabbing and knife throwing. Single feat.
Do you know where is a lot of synergy to be had? Like only 1 feat not applying(ripper).

Spear throwing.

Get yourself 3str max dex spear thrower with a knife. Its AMAZING.

 

[Blaine]

Blaine as I was saying recently, there is actually very little synergy between stabbing and knife throwing. Single feat.
Do you know where is a lot of synergy to be had? Like only 1 feat not applying(ripper).

Spear throwing.

Get yourself 3str max dex spear thrower with a knife. Its AMAZING.

I remember you talking this up a few pages ago, but unfortunately, Spear Throw's synergy with high-DEX melee builds came at a steep cost:

Ah, I see that the 1.0.1.12 update contained a massive, across-the-board nerf to Spear Throw.

Worse than the immense damage nerf was the nerf to the AP cost specialization. 25 -> 10 was worth specializing for, but 25 -> 16? For fuck's sake. You are now restricted to using TiChrome spears and adrenaline shots in order to get the most out of it, efficiency-wise, whereas before you could do a throw and two attacks (at full spec) with any spears and without an adrenaline shot.

Also, Spear Throw is one of the aspects of this new weapon that really helps to make spears attractive and cool, so yeah let's fuck it up because it do lot of damage, oh no HELP!

Normally I don't bitch too much about nerfs, but this one is absolutely harebrained.

The feat was originally tuned for a moderate- to low-DEX, medium armor, high-ish STR, medium mobility hoplite build, and worked just fine for that purpose.

It was too amazing for the sort of build you're talking about, so he re-tuned it for that, with zero regard for the effect on a hoplite build. Post-nerf, you need a TiChrome spear and a pair of tabi in order to throw once and attack twice without chugging medication, popping Blitz, etc.

I'm still mad. That being said, I'm interested in your proposition and may try it out.

 

[lukaszek]

It was too amazing for the sort of build you're talking about, so he re-tuned it for that, with zero regard for the effect on a hoplite build. Post-nerf, you need a TiChrome spear and a pair of tabi in order to throw once and attack twice without chugging medication, popping Blitz, etc.

you get me wrong. Im not saying to stab with spear. Im talking 3str and having huge penalties to melee with a stick. But str requirements do not matter when throwing it! Hence there is only 1 viable choice: tungsten winged spear!

In melee you stab with a knife. With fancy footwork you will have plenty of movement points to pick up your spear and run away. Throw triggers footwork as well.
Max dex ups your chance to actually hit enemy at max throw distance

With just 8 tiles distance and mediocre gear and lvl I was able to beat dominating carnifex with just 2 throws. 3 CON. No penalty cloth armor to max those movement pts.

 

[Blaine]

you get me wrong. Im not saying to stab with spear. Im talking 3str and having huge penalties to melee with a stick. But str requirements do not matter when throwing it! Hence there is only 1 viable choice: tungsten winged spear!

No, I understand you entirely. I read your previous posts also, with the screenshots of huge-number crits and all that jazz.

You've misunderstood me—which is understandable. The Spear Throw nerf touched me in a bad place, so using Spear Throw in any capacity will always remind me of it. Spear Throw may be great when used as you describe, but the nerf reduced it to utter mediocrity when used to complement an actual melee spear-stabbing build. We can reasonably assume that Spear Throw was originally intended by Styg to complement melee spear-stabbing builds, so what you've done is repurpose it and make it great again.

I suspect that Spear Throw's potential to be used in YOUR way is what prompted Styg to nerf it, because it went from working just fine with a melee spear build to being extremely janky and somewhat subpar with a melee spear build.

Not only I, but also Parabalus, ItsChon, and others were annoyed by the Spear Throw nerf, and some avoided the relevant update for a while because of it.

 

[Parabalus]

Think you linked the wrong one, this is a gun build?

Oops.

https://underrail.info/build/?HgMQB...AbFlHDk15cL1hAKcKzdj7io7EF4qi6BOKouwLivY4E378

But if you have traps skill you don't need PER, to detect traps either trap detection from trap skill or normal detection is used.

You're largely correct, although I seem to recall that if you have high PER, it's slightly hybridized and your Trap Detection will be a bit higher than with Traps alone.

If I were to dump PER entirely, I could drop to 6 INT and go 10 AGI. But then where to fit Blitz and/or Strider?

You should def dump PER to 3. Dunno about the hybridization, but with 50 SP in Traps (and max DEX) I haven't stepped on a trap yet. I'm currently running a build with the same attribute spread, but stabbing knife instead of throwing.


You can drop like 50 points from Mercantile (and easily some from Persuade) and put them into traps, drop Trap Expert? Not sure how much skill you need to keep your traps invisible, I never liked setting traps.

 

[jackofshadows]

So guys is trade restock via cheat engine working with the current version? If so, what do I need for that aside from the installed cheat engine itself?

 

[Blaine]

You can drop like 50 points from Mercantile (and easily some from Persuade) and put them into traps, drop Trap Expert? Not sure how much skill you need to keep your traps invisible, I never liked setting traps.

Yeah, for sure. I'm also 100% sure that (humanoid) enemies are better at avoiding traps now, as the gangsters in Drop Zone all detoured around an entire line of bear traps in my current game (few dozen points in the skill).

Revised build. If I'm gonna have this many skill points, might as well invest in Dodge and Uncanny Dodge. Would be nice to have Nimble, but just having a stiff Uncanny Dodge and a bit of reduced hit rate in melee might be worthwhile enough.

https://underrail.info/build/?HgMQC...lHDk15cQS9AKcKzdj7DjuKjsQXiqLoE4qi7AuK9jgTfvw

________________________________________


Another build I'm working on:

https://underrail.info/build/?HgMMB...CZhwpEzFlYCSynChcK1wqRAw4zio7EF4rK6BeKyuwXfvw

This one employs everyone's favorite, Ambush, and again, it's Throwing and Traps, except this is a chem pistol build. The idea is to have enough DEX to get off spec'd Cooked Shot (hopefully with Ambush crit), Aimed Shot (also with a chemical pistol, or energy pistol if and when necessary), throw a magnesium grenade, then retreat and rely on the blob traps I've placed. Next turn, while Cooked Shot is still on cooldown, Ambush (with the help of the magnesium grenade) and Opportunist (for enemies caught in traps) will bolster regular chemical pistol attacks. Quick Tinkering and Grenadier do what Quick Tinkering and Grenadier do.

Sure Step is there for Depot A sanity, to avoid one's own puddles, and also to be able to use caltrops with impunity. Caltrops are heavy, but that's why you use them liberally—and they needn't occupy a utility slot after they've been spread. You prepare the battlefield stealthily, then re-fill your slots. On my Spec Ops build that had Sure Step, the ability to run back over my own ocean of caltrops was fantastic, at least until the SMG got super-OP.

The temptation to work in Nimble and mix up some combination of unique anti-bio damage gear (Chemical Assault Unit armor, Biohazard Boots, Grey Spec Ops, etc.) to also wade imperviously through clouds of bio gas is a great temptation with a build like this, but any attempt to do so erodes the effectiveness of Ambush. Still, gas grenades can be used away from your main engagement zone, or you can wear an anti-bio suit for specific engagements and simply accept that Ambush and stealth will be lower.

 

[ItsChon]

you get me wrong. Im not saying to stab with spear. Im talking 3str and having huge penalties to melee with a stick. But str requirements do not matter when throwing it! Hence there is only 1 viable choice: tungsten winged spear!

No, I understand you entirely. I read your previous posts also, with the screenshots of huge-number crits and all that jazz.

You've misunderstood me—which is understandable. The Spear Throw nerf touched me in a bad place, so using Spear Throw in any capacity will always remind me of it. Spear Throw may be great when used as you describe, but the nerf reduced it to utter mediocrity when used to complement an actual melee spear-stabbing build. We can reasonably assume that Spear Throw was originally intended by Styg to complement melee spear-stabbing builds, so what you've done is repurpose it and make it great again.

I suspect that Spear Throw's potential to be used in YOUR way is what prompted Styg to nerf it, because it went from working just fine with a melee spear build to being extremely janky and somewhat subpar with a melee spear build.

Not only I, but also Parabalus, ItsChon, and others were annoyed by the Spear Throw nerf, and some avoided the relevant update for a while because of it.

I mean, I didn't love the nerf, but it still works absolutely fine with a melee spear build. The power spike comes in later at level 18 and you're forced to use TiChrome spears and/or tabis, but it's still my favorite build for a reason and I think you're exaggerating how "janky" or "bad" it is by a lot.

 

[Blaine]

I mean, I didn't love the nerf, but it still works absolutely fine with a melee spear build. The power spike comes in later at level 18 and you're forced to use TiChrome spears and/or tabis, but it's still my favorite build for a reason and I think you're exaggerating how "janky" or "bad" it is by a lot.

Your tune has changed a lot since the nerf first dropped. You were absolutely indignant back then.

The main reason I don't like the nerf is that you now have to min-max your equipment in that highly specific way, one that we both immediately thought of. He tuned Spear Throw to precisely peak only with the most AP-conservative equipment combo; without it, your attacks don't "fit" into the available AP. I absolutely hate that Styg designs the game that way. From his own statements, he seems to consider an entire category of potential builds as a sort of gestalt; he posted something like "Sniper rifles are probably even more powerful than before" when he implemented the Spearhead nerf. Yet he doesn't seem to fully consider how individual builds will actually be tuned within that broad category after his whack-a-mole alterations.

Not for the first time, I posit that he's far too close to his own creation to be objective or to maintain the proper perspective in these matters, but that is inherent to all creators and not a fault per se.

 

[ItsChon]

I mean, I didn't love the nerf, but it still works absolutely fine with a melee spear build. The power spike comes in later at level 18 and you're forced to use TiChrome spears and/or tabis, but it's still my favorite build for a reason and I think you're exaggerating how "janky" or "bad" it is by a lot.

Your tune has changed a lot since the nerf first dropped. You were absolutely indignant back then.

The main reason I don't like the nerf is that you now have to min-max your equipment in that highly specific way, one that we both immediately thought of. He tuned Spear Throw to precisely peak only with the most AP-conservative equipment combo; without it, your attacks don't "fit" into the available AP. I absolutely hate that Styg designs the game that way. From his own statements, he seems to consider an entire category of potential builds as a sort of gestalt; he posted something like "Sniper rifles are probably even more powerful than before" when he implemented the Spearhead nerf. Yet he doesn't seem to fully consider how individual builds will actually be tuned within that broad category after his whack-a-mole alterations.

Not for the first time, I posit that he's far too close to his own creation to be objective or to maintain the proper perspective in these matters, but that is inherent to all creators and not a fault per se.

Yeah I don't disagree with any of that. It seems clear to me that as long as something is still playable and good, I'm really not too bothered by things, while you refuse to play/do certain things as a matter of principle. Everything you said is true, but melee spears are still really strong despite the fact that you have to use a TiChrome spear (if you're wearing tabis, you have enough AP to chuck a spear throw, stab with a TiChrome spear, and your last stab can be with any kind of spear. Worth mentioning I think), and they're still really fun, so I just don't understand why you refuse to play these builds when you could still enjoy them even if you disagree with the changes that were made.

 

[Jason Liang]

... just take Versatility for crissakes.

 

[Parabalus]

Another build I'm working on:

https://underrail.info/build/?HgMMB...CZhwpEzFlYCSynChcK1wqRAw4zio7EF4rK6BeKyuwXfvw

This one employs everyone's favorite, Ambush, and again, it's Throwing and Traps, except this is a chem pistol build. The idea is to have enough DEX to get off spec'd Cooked Shot (hopefully with Ambush crit), Aimed Shot (also with a chemical pistol, or energy pistol if and when necessary), throw a magnesium grenade, then retreat and rely on the blob traps I've placed. Next turn, while Cooked Shot is still on cooldown, Ambush (with the help of the magnesium grenade) and Opportunist (for enemies caught in traps) will bolster regular chemical pistol attacks. Quick Tinkering and Grenadier do what Quick Tinkering and Grenadier do.

Sure Step is there for Depot A sanity, to avoid one's own puddles, and also to be able to use caltrops with impunity. Caltrops are heavy, but that's why you use them liberally—and they needn't occupy a utility slot after they've been spread. You prepare the battlefield stealthily, then re-fill your slots. On my Spec Ops build that had Sure Step, the ability to run back over my own ocean of caltrops was fantastic, at least until the SMG got super-OP.

The temptation to work in Nimble and mix up some combination of unique anti-bio damage gear (Chemical Assault Unit armor, Biohazard Boots, Grey Spec Ops, etc.) to also wade imperviously through clouds of bio gas is a great temptation with a build like this, but any attempt to do so erodes the effectiveness of Ambush. Still, gas grenades can be used away from your main engagement zone, or you can wear an anti-bio suit for specific engagements and simply accept that Ambush and stealth will be lower.

I don't think you'll have much trouble with this build, but if you want something different, you can drop PER to to 6 for Ambush, max DEX to 18, then use Versatility with max melee.

You could then combine it with your above throwing build, works great.

There's new headgear specially for breathing in gas https://stygiansoftware.com/wiki/index.php?title=Tchortist_Bioscrubber, available immediately after Depot A, the new Phreak questline.

 

[Blaine]

My biggest question when contemplating Versatility DEXers with no CON or Detection is always, "What about crawlers?".

Though to be fair, I can't even spot the tougher variants reliably with 13 PER and Detection goggles, at least not yet. I'll probably have to wait until level 20+ and motion-tracking level 100%+.

They cheat... they cheat. I can only cling to my memories of my riot shield spearman blocking all their shit.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

My biggest question when contemplating Versatility DEXers with no CON or Detection is always, "What about crawlers?".

savescumming, duh.

 

[Jason Liang]

My biggest question when contemplating Versatility DEXers with no CON or Detection is always, "What about crawlers?".

Though to be fair, I can't even spot the tougher variants reliably with 13 PER and Detection goggles, at least not yet. I'll probably have to wait until level 20+ and motion-tracking level 100%+.

They cheat... they cheat. I can only cling to my memories of my riot shield spearman blocking all their shit.

... you could just max PER, and have minimum DEX for the melee feats you want (the only one to actually consider is Cheap Shots). All DEX really does is save you skill points (which the game showers you with anyway) reduce AP for light weapons (which is useless if you aren't using a light weapon) and crit rate for melee, which really doesn't change the battle tactically, and increase Initiative (which is almost never used since you begin most fights stealthed). Its a poo-poo platter of minor abilities. If you compare to STR for carrying capacity and gear requirements, or PER for detecting crawlers and the cool ranged weapon feats, either have a greater direct effect on your capabilities.

 

[Parabalus]

My biggest question when contemplating Versatility DEXers with no CON or Detection is always, "What about crawlers?".

Though to be fair, I can't even spot the tougher variants reliably with 13 PER and Detection goggles, at least not yet. I'll probably have to wait until level 20+ and motion-tracking level 100%+.

They cheat... they cheat. I can only cling to my memories of my riot shield spearman blocking all their shit.

If you have a ton of movement points you can reliably kite death stalkers, their AI will always try to restealth if out of your LoS and you can run towards them to reveal them by bumping.

 

[Blaine]

If you have a ton of movement points you can reliably kite death stalkers, their AI will always try to restealth if out of your LoS and you can run towards them to reveal them by bumping.

Oh, I know. Lemme just load up my old SMG Spec Ops save. What is he wearing? Is it Grey Spec Ops armor? A black overcoat?

Cave hoppers win again.

Never invest in Nimble, Dodge, or Evasion. Scooting around like Sanic Hegehog is the best defense.

 

[Tacgnol]

How are spears as a melee build these days? Might be interesting to do something melee for the next playthrough.

 

[Blaine]

How are spears as a melee build these days? Might be interesting to do something melee for the next playthrough.

They were great when I played them, even after the nerf.

They have a little extra reach, which can sometimes make a difference. Pair with riot armor, a shield, and blocking feats to make melee enemies (including Death Stalkers) cry, energy shield for the ranged. Unlike in a tin can, you can retain quite decent mobility and still enjoy respectable protection if itemized correctly. Nimble always makes sense here, despite (probably) not investing in Dodge or Evasion.

Spear Throw is good. You can even go stealthier if desired and still not be super-squishy, especially now that tabi are more the way to go if min-maxing Spear Throw usage, although you'll likely never achieve extreme stealth.

Basically, it's the first fully viable hoplite option. The somewhat increased weapon versatility, strong melee counter, and added mobility compensate for a thinner can.