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Game News Age of Decadence heading for the Big Leagues

DefJam101

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Cybernegro HQ
Congratulations, VD! Don't let skyway ruin your fun. This is a rather massive landmark in the game's development and ITS's life as a company. I hope it's as exciting as it sounds, even if you still are not sure what path you are going to take. I figured I would buy a copy in stores if AoD gets published, but now I'm not sure. Does the online special edition include an art book filled with naked Romans?

Anyways--continue fighting the power!


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Silellak

Cipher
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Aug 19, 2008
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Location
Tucson, AZ
DefJam101 said:
Congratulations, VD! Don't let skyway ruin your fun.

I agree, that is great news for VD, the entire AoD team, and the game itself. If Ultima 5: Lazarus proved anything to me, it's that independent teams are creating some of the best games of the last few years.

However, you have to admit, it is worrisome that skyway is so negative. After all, he's usually so positive about games in general, so for him to be pessimistic about AoD means development is very likely going in the wrong direction. Especially because he clearly knows so much about game design.
 

cares

Novice
Joined
Jun 10, 2007
Messages
30
Visually, this game looks decent enough...my only gripe is with character models...I dunno, they look like they've been borrowed from Settlers 3...something more serious in appearance akin to ToEE character avatars would be more welcome...
 

inwoker

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
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Kyiv, Ukraine
VD, I remmember initial game had no sounds. But you reconsidered for their addition. How is progress on that? Have you any sound examples?
 

Naked Ninja

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Lol, how did SoW get involved in this nonsense? :lol:

Let me take a moment to set people straight.

That screen from SoW looks nice, yes, but you have to understand the difference between engine rendering and artwork.

That shot looks nice because TGEA is built around shader based rendering techniques, which are now common. The main thing making it look nice is the reflective water. This is not art. The only artwork in that scene is some trees and a few textures, hardly anything worth talking about.

Whereas the latest AoD screens have shown some great artwork, Oscar is doing a tremendous job, even more impressive for a single man. People taking shots at him need to pull their heads out their asses. I'm looking at you, Skyway.

And how about using less shitty engine next time? Especially when you know that there is a much more advanced version.
Hey there is a free and easy to understand open-sauce engine with lots of huge-community made modules to get you started immediately that is on a par with AAA 10/10 games' ones (how about some for Cyclopean hint hint)

You have no clue what you are talking about, so keep quiet.

Ogre is just as complex as Torque, has many hidden issues which people don't know about until they get into (which is true for EVERY ENGINE EVER), and it isn't close to a feature complete game engine, it's a rendering engine, like I said in that quote. You have NO idea how much time and effort it would take to bring it to the level of Torque, you don't just go download some modules and plug them in. :roll:

So if you had the choice to pick between shitty and a very limited engine and spending time on making a working framework out of already made components that will give you a limitless engine like you want it - you would've picked the 1st option?
Yes it can be a very time consuming process (I was doing the same with GLScene when it was still alive) but the result will be satisfactory.

You lost all credibility when you said "limitless engine", there is no such thing fool.

Less than 50% of what they would need already exists for Ogre users, you have some basic plugins (which may or may not play nicely with each other) but the rest is long, hard graft. For a single programmer like Nick, I'd estimate a 4 year development cycle to bring Ogre up to as feature rich as Torque, assuming he works full time on it. I have made a game engine from scratch ( and that was one that was far simpler than Torque), you have no idea the complexity or effort you are talking about.

4 years to finish the engine, then another 4 years where they actually make the game. Double the dev cycle for AoD.

Or they work on Torque, get the game done in half the time, get it out there and maybe making them wealthy (;)), move to TGEA for their next game which means 80% of their work they can keep instead of throwing away.

And they get to spend most of their time on content instead of engine tech.


So how is it any different from a very limited Torque engine that won't give you even a 1/20th part of what those libraries can do? Except those libraries usually have a strong community support behind them and where is your Torque now?

Bollocks. Just utter bollocks.


Ogre is nice, do not get me wrong. But, for a small indie company, getting it to the point where you can make an RPG with it is a pretty big undertaking.
 

hiver

Guest
AoD looks great.

Not only from the pure graphix PoV but its design and art direction is almost superb (im sure it will look even better in game).

It already just oozes with that strange beautiful gestalt effect Fallout's have. (F3 doesnt count here naturally)
 

MetalCraze

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Vault Dweller said:
Can we see a few examples of nearly empty maps and some specific suggestions in regard to their improvement?
Can we lern2red my post before that?

Now, I understand why Gareth switched to TGEA. For a first person sandbox game, TGE isn't a viable option. For AoD it is. Odds are, we'll continue using it.
Yes there are certainly no better engines out there - all other are eye-candies too.

As it's already been explained, it's not a real engine. Overall, we picked Torque for 2 reasons:
- proven [by many games] and stable
- huge community support with plenty of easily available custom code, kits, and upgrades.
The same can be said about Ogre. Community made enough modules for it to become a "full" engine. Yes you have to rewrite something in them - then again you do that for every module of every engine.

So far, no regrets. The game looks great and the screens don't do it justice. You'll see once the demo is released. Sometimes it's hard for me to believe that this is our game.
I still wouldn't mind adding more "damaged/used" objects to maps that will add to the atmosphere of PA. Why am I talking about visual design? I haven't seen how dialogues and writing -really- work, so I can't judge that.

It's impolite to talk about things you don't understand.
But I do. From what I know and saw Torque is very limited and you had to rewrite bits of it anyway to better suit your needs.
 

MetalCraze

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Whereas the latest AoD screens have shown some great artwork, Oscar is doing a tremendous job, even more impressive for a single man. People taking shots at him need to pull their heads out their asses. I'm looking at you, Skyway.
Oh but NN there is a difference between artwork and level design. Some levels/maps/whatever (mostly outdoors from what I've seen) in AoD feel too empty.
Some locations are looking well detailed to provide a good impression about them - like those BG2 styled indoors with lots of papers and other stuff lying around (and it looks very good). But then again there is this dungeon with empty corridors and fort's yard that has nothing besides tower.

Though tbh I can't see what is so good about shades of brown.

Ogre is just as complex as Torque, has many hidden issues which people don't know about until they get into (which is true for EVERY ENGINE EVER), and it isn't close to a feature complete game engine, it's a rendering engine, like I said in that quote. You have NO idea how much time and effort it would take to bring it to the level of Torque, you don't just go download some modules and plug them in.
I wrote that the coding will be needed and never denied that. Troubles with reading?

You lost all credibility when you said "limitless engine", there is no such thing fool.
There is no such thing, but it was used as a word for comparison to show the difference - but surely I didn't see that it will be nitpicked. And when I was writing that post I was comparing Torque's rendering capabilities with Ogre's.

For a single programmer like Nick, I'd estimate a 4 year development cycle to bring Ogre up to as feature rich as Torque, assuming he works full time on it.
Don't exagerrate. Unless you will say that programming gameplay scripts will take 4 years, because let's see - Ogre already does visuals, it has own model/map/animation formats - ok you will have to program some basic collision detection, basic pathfinding, AI, combat scripts etc (and AoD obviously doesn't need those things too advanced) - but Nick does the very same in Torque doesn't he? It isn't like Torque came with all modules for your tb rpg needs anyway.
I was making my own engine for 3 years (from time to time) using GLScene render. In the end I threw away it all because yes it is very hard to make it all by yourself. However now that I'm playing with Ogre I can say that Ogre with already made modules is miles ahead from a simple rendering engine.

Or they work on Torque, get the game done in half the time, get it out there and maybe making them wealthy
So again - does Torque come with immediate TB RPG setup so I will be able to start making my game right away?
 

Naked Ninja

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Oh but NN there is a difference between artwork and level design.

No there isn't, a level is a piece of artwork, with composition and all the rest.

Levels/maps/whatever in AoD feel too empty.

I suspect it has more to do with most of them missing NPCs wandering around.

Though tbh I can't see what is so good about shades of brown.

Brown, like the colour of sand and earth? What colour would you have them be, purple?

You honestly think these shots look "too brown"? :

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=539.150

I wrote that the coding will be needed and never denied that.Troubles with reading?

You completely misrepresented the amount of work in your comparison. Troubles with having a clue what you are talking about?

And when I was writing that post I was comparing Torque's rendering capabilities with Ogre's.

Good, so you admit you were comparing all of Ogre to 30% of Torque?

Don't exagerrate.

I wasn't. And you are a fool to think I was.

Unless you will say that programming gameplay scripts will take 4 years, because let's see - Ogre already does visuals, it has own model/map/animation formats - ok you will have to program some basic collision detection, basic pathfinding, AI, combat scripts etc

I'm going to repeat myself here : Don't talk about things you are ignorant about, you simply look stupid to those who do. The fact that you don't understand just how much more there is to it than just the rendering engine demonstrates just how little you know.


So again - does Torque comes with immediate TB RPG setup so I will be able to start making my game right away?

No, and neither does Ogre. But it's a small fraction of the overall amount of work you'd need to do to turn Ogre into a full game engine, less than 5%.


Skyway, just give it a rest now. :roll:
 

MetalCraze

Arcane
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Messages
21,104
Location
Urkanistan
Naked Ninja said:
No there isn't, a level is a piece of artwork, with composition and all the rest.
In that case the part of artwork that is "level composition" looks poor.

I suspect it has more to do with most of them missing NPCs wandering around.
But of course! All my complaints are about the lack of NPCs.

Brown, like the colour of sand and earth? What colour would you have them be, purple?
Ah sorry. I probably suck at AoD's lore - I didn't know that everything in AoD is made out of sand and earth. PA age surely is a hard time.

You honestly think these shots look "too brown"? :

http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php?topic=539.150
It looks like a castle in the empty desert. And a very clean one for something PA. But I have to give it to castle's owners - they surely know how to keep all junk out including what's left from vegetation and other items - let's make our PA a better place.

You completely misrepresented the amount of work in your comparison. Troubles with having a clue what you are talking about?
"4 years full-time" - oh yes.

Good, so you admit you were comparing all of Ogre to 30% of Torque?
I admit that quoting out of context does the job.

I wasn't. And you are a fool to think I was.
Please explain just why will you need full-time 4 years to make a basic -gameplay- side of the game (which you will then program for another 4 years) considering that visual side is already not a question? No seriously - I'm interested.

I'm going to repeat myself here : Don't talk about things you are ignorant about, you simply look stupid to those who do. The fact that you don't understand just how much more there is to it than just the rendering engine demonstrates just how little you know.
So please show me where did I say something about rendering in that quote? I was already talking about other things in the engine - and how AoD needs only basic AI/pathfinding/collision scripts etc. And the point of this part of your reply was?


No, and neither does Ogre.
Are you dumb? I already said that 3 times - yes you will need to do coding even with modules - which word do you need me to explain? I just pointed out that Torque is far not a complete engine as well.

But it's a small fraction of the overall amount of work you'd need to do to turn Ogre into a full game engine, less than 5%.
For example?
 

Naked Ninja

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Lord, but you are an idiot Skyway.

Please explain just why will you need full-time 4 years to make a basic -gameplay- side of the game (which you will then program for another 4 years) considering that visual side is already not a question?

Because there is 4 years work in those other systems, for a single, skilled programmer. You know, those things you dismiss as being minor, compared to rendering.

I just pointed out that Torque is far not a complete engine as well.

Yes, it is. Complete engines are not defined by whether they include tb sub-systems or not.


Tell you what, go turn Ogre into a game engine, report back when you're finished your tb RPG. I might still be reading the Codex in 15 years.
 

thesheeep

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Well, I am working with Ogre since over half a year now and I must say that 4 years are truly exaggerated.
Considering there are already a lot of libraries, etc. available that do the things Ogre doesn't (which is, as already pointed out, everything but the Graphics -and even there, its not everything) my guess would be that it would take probably 3 years fulltime for a programmer of my skill (which really isn't that good! ) to make an AoD with Ogre, including a level and script-editor.

So, not that bad, but there is no doubt that just using Torque is faster.
 

MetalCraze

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Naked Ninja said:
Lord, but you are an idiot Skyway.
Judging by the following quotes you just try to weasel your way out now.

Because there is 4 years work in those other systems, for a single, skilled programmer. You know, those things you dismiss as being minor, compared to rendering.
I dismiss them as being minor? Strawman? Where did I say that?
Also I still want to hear just on what will you spend 4 years and how Nick evaded those 4 years with Torque considering that he still needed to do many things including AI, combat mechanics, gameplay scripts and other smaller things like movement controls from scratch - because something tells me nothing of that in Torque originally suits those needs?

Yes, it is. Complete engines are not defined by whether they include tb sub-systems or not.
I thought programmers need to have strong logic - because this quote has none - because I've never said that - I just said that you will still need to program many things in Torque (from point zero too) - just like in Ogre (with modules of course)
Also I'm still interested in knowing which things in Torque are suitable for TB RPG without the need for a partial or a complete rewriting.

Tell you what, go turn Ogre into a game engine, report back when you're finished your tb RPG. I might still be reading the Codex in 15 years.
Wow you're so funny.

But I take it that you agree that AoD can be much better at level design if you will fill it with more detail and colours?
 

Naked Ninja

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No need for weaseling, I just need to wait and see if anyone here has actually turned Ogre into a complete engine in less than 4 years. Or even just turned Ogre into a complete engine.

If they haven't then I win, because it's clear they're speaking from ignorance.

Most of the arguments here are along the lines of "But there are existing libraries for all those things!" While the faith they have in these libraries is touching, sadly, game programming doesn't work like that. If it did, no one would ever buy the Unreal Engine, or any other game engine for that matter, they'd just cobble together a collection of free libraries.

I'm guessing that Sheep is just getting into Ogre, judging by his 6 months comments. He hasn't gotten far enough to even have a clear idea of all that would be needed to make an AoD, nevermind being able to judge whether the existing mods for Ogre would fill those holes.

Sorry Sheep, no offense. But noobs always underestimate how long it would take. If you are a noob, simple rule, multiple by 2.5 your time estimates.
 

Naked Ninja

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It should be noted that NeoAxis is a game engine built on Ogre, so it might help to give a clue as to timelines.

It was first publicly released in 2006, version 0.3. I don't know how long it took them to get to that version but in the two years since it has been upgraded to version 0.59. Ie it is not even at version 1.0 yet.

Try reading through the changelog to get an idea of the enormity of what you are talking about :

http://www.neoaxisgroup.com/neoaxis/changelog
 

MetalCraze

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Motorm4x is an indie rally game with good physics, visual detail, hard enough gameplay that uses Ogre engine and was finished in less than 4 years. Got published worldwide as well.

NN I believe that as long as you know how to implement one or another feature into the given engine - time will be shortened considerably. Also it is about dev enthusiasm. Only single indie projects get ever finished and as we see with M4X example - certainly not because the engine is too feature-light.
 

Naked Ninja

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:facepalm:

And how many developers made Motorm4x Skyway? Because I did say 1 programmer would take 4 years to make an engine of it.

http://www.theeasyco.com/corporate.html

A group of industry vetrans with 8 years experience and AAA titles under their belt made a game in less than 4 years with Ogre? A group backed by a publisher? A publisher who gave them enough money to afford to use SpeedTree, an $8500 license? Oh yes, dev enthusiasm was definitely the deciding factor there!

Oh my, you've certainly shown me I was mistaken!

Skyway you fool, give it a rest.
 

MetalCraze

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Oh snap - you got me there - it doesn't count as long as devs know what they are doing (and ITS isn't doing their game without finances too you know).
Or you know... you could've just posted "Devs have skills it isn't fair bawwww" instead - because it appears that it was your point.

And SpeedTree is such an important part of the game obviously - without it it would've taken them much longer to do the game - the whole $8500 for the license - unbelievable AAA budget - obviously publisher gave them enough to buy full rally engine instead of using freeware "rendering" engine that can do nothing else - O WAI-
 

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