TBS Age of Wonders 1 & 2

[BING XI LAO]

Now that there's a half dozen new people playing PBEMs and live games using my mod, they're giving me hell about how it should be tweaked, reverted, and whatnot.

Still, aside from underrating mobility, stealth and asymmetrical design compared to my own preferences, it's all good.
Today they persuaded me to take the nerf bat to Dragons, since as things stand (in the mod and in Vanilla) they were categorically superior to all other units except the Air Galley (which is similar) due to having both a top-tier battlefield presence and top-tier strategic presence (flying with 32/36 movespeed).
Taking dragons down to 5 DEF, 16 HP, and 28 movement speed will still leave them top-range units. Sadly it's not possible to increase unit tier beyond 4, otherwise they disappear from city recruitment lists, and it's also not possible to increase recruitment gold cost past 255.

Incidentally one of the 'new' players, Caymack, used to play this in PBEM multiplayer on the old forum nearly 20 years ago.

Also, I accidentally made the Sacrificial Flame spell fire 8 times per cast. Eight 7 ATK 7 DAM attacks.... in an AoE.... for 0 mana (I got a bit overexcited when buffing magic, even without the accident).

 

[vota DC]

Dragons are powerful because you can kill an entire stack of Karaghs with just one of them.
They just need more units with Dragon Slayer skill.

In my full conversion mod they just float and there isn't any unit with Flying + ranged Attack but It could be immersion breaking. They used this approach in aow3.

 

[BING XI LAO]

In my full conversion mod they just float and there isn't any unit with Flying + ranged Attack but It could be immersion breaking. They used this approach in aow3.

That triggers me a lot, but what is your mod called?

 

[BING XI LAO]

So, what are people thinking about your mod?

I think they like it quite a lot, there may be some screwups but it's certainly a step up from:

- heroes mindlessly beelining 10 DEF
- interminable archer stacks
- unit enchantments being 85% of good/reasonably priced spells
- tier2 cities being too expensive to upgrade, to the extent no-one ever bothered

And it has some subtler changes in there, like for example upgrading most (soon all) forest tiles to full "Dense Vegetation" status so that even sparse trees (also mushrooms & cacti) will grant Concealment to the appropriate units as well as costing full Forest movement points (unless you have forestry). Concealment was a bit too weak prior to this because half the trees just wouldn't give you concealment.

The most controversy is perhaps the Fairy, though people aren't super mad. I reworked her the most of any unit. In vanilla she's just a flyer with Strike and Concealment and poor stats, so I decided to create a really unique unit instead.
Removed strike, added Charm and Physical Protection and True Seeing, and added +2 DEF +1 HP +8 movement. Totally dunks on low tier troops, can sometimes charm higher quality troops too.
But a Giant Slug? Well she can't punch it any more, and it's too dumb to be charmed. So it will kill her 100% of the time.
So, it's a hard counter unit with drastically varied matchups. I like this kind of thing, and with more playtesting from real human beings, I'm optimistic about making it balanced, if it isn't already. Could need a nerf.
Some will find it a troll unit however.

 

[octavius]

Yeah, those tingelings are so useless, they need a makeover.

Dragons are powerful because you can kill an entire stack of Karaghs with just one of them.
They just need more units with Dragon Slayer skill.

In my full conversion mod they just float and there isn't any unit with Flying + ranged Attack but It could be immersion breaking. They used this approach in aow3.

Didn't SM limit breath attacks to 3 per round or something? I think that's the best approach; keep Flying, but don't make Dragons totally invincible against most enemies. But of course, not an option in AoW1, sadly.

 

[vota DC]

In my full conversion mod they just float and there isn't any unit with Flying + ranged Attack but It could be immersion breaking. They used this approach in aow3.

That triggers me a lot, but what is your mod called?

Food chain mod but isn't that balanced....Is even less balanced than vanilla game, hex modding helped to make some factions more playable. I give new version sometimes to my former High school classmates unlike Aow3 food chain mod that was finished and uploaded years ago.

Right now has:

Bullies:
Cheap but weak T1, the special One Is also good fighter
Bad but cheap T2
Sturdy T3 one of them with cold strike
Multi purpose T4

Momos Chiula:
Good relation with most of factions
Spammable weak and slow T1 ranged and infantry
Cheap ram fast and able to fight but very frail
Special T1 Is a transport
T2 are just like 1,5 compared to other factions but they feature a very sturdy infantry and a melee only cleric with dominate
Very good T3 flyer
No T4 at all

Mercenaries
Decent relations with most of factions and few enemies
Awesome T1: a long ranged crossbowman, a halberdier with good defense and a yoyo fighter with crappy damage but great speed
Ok T2, weak magic but their "Priest" Is a merchant with charm
Ok T3 a fast improved ballista (regular ballista is available only in builder guild) and a giant with Wall crushing
Frail T4 with High skills and damage and physical immunity (but not to poison)

Viscidi:
Most of units have swimming
Ok T1 with a living ram able to fight
Ok T2
Good T3 with a good flyer, a Wall climbing poisonus fighter and and archer with High defense
Super sturdy T4 with charm

Scavengers:
Crappy relations: many enemies and only 3 Friends that are just "polite" relation. They have a neutral relation with Follettus despite being opposite alignment
Ok T1: a living ram with High Attack, slow archers and infantry with low hp and damage but High defense. No special T1
Good T2 a healer with holy Attack and physical protection and a fast swimmer
Good T3 a High skill fighter, a Wall climbing crossbowman and a poisonus heavy catapult
Very slow T4 with very High skills and physical protection

Empire:
Most of enemies are just "wary"
Bad T1: no ranged option. Special T1 Is sturdy but very slow
Ok T2 with a ranged with cause fear, a fighter with web and a skilled cleric with non ranged Attack
Good T3 with a damaging fighter with charm, a very sturdy fighter with High defense but low damage and a weak ranged Attack, an ok tunneller, and an improved ballista
T4 Is based on the headmaster: very fat and powerful so slow but tons of hp, many immunities, Life stealing, lightning Attack and cause fear

Taglium Macignis:
Awesome T1: a crossbowman (less skilled than mercenary but more hp and Speed), a berserker, a living ram able to fight and a special T1 with good skills but weak hp and damage
Very good T2: super fast cavalry, cleric with charm
Bad T3: niche cavalry, super tanky crossbowman with pathetic movement, frail tunneller with lightning
Multi purpose T4

Palmanovus:
Ok T1: ranged and melee are mediocre but special Is good and has Wall climbing
Bad T2
Good T3: a sturdy fast giant with archery, a slow treeman with physical protection, a flyer with cold strike
Weird T4: It Is a snowcat that can be used as a fast transport, create snow, has snow concealment and can freezer enemies

Predatorum
Awesome T1: melee Is very cheap and sturdy but low skills, ranged Is sturdy, ram Is sturdy and special T1 Is expensive but fast and with good fighting skills
Ok T2: Kung fu cleric with very high defense but slow and low hp
Awesome T3: floating ghost able to possess, long ranged unit with decent melee, fighter with charm, swimming and web
T4 Is similar to Scavengers but faster and with less defensive skills

Loyalist:
Crappy T1 but their special T1 has Bard skills
Very good T2 since their cleric Is a fast flyer
Ok T3: a sub par Wall crushing fighter, a concealment based unit with many protection included physical but isn't a great fighter anyway, melee that Is the sturdier T3
T4 Is the fastest unit of the game, a good fighter too.

Follettus:
Good T1: melee starts weak but has good skills on medal, ranged Is poisonus and has melee Attack too but Is very frail, special T1 Is a very fast glass Cannon
Good T2: the cleric Is mediocre but the cavalry has ranged Attack too
Bad T3: a strong tunneller, a charlatan like unit
Two T4! A slow zombie with many immunities and Life stealing and a fast giant with a chainsaw (eh Just used titan model, haven't done much graphics)

Infernals:
Ok T1 but slow
Ok- T2: cleric Is quite good but then they get only a floater with ok stats
Good T3: a sturdy melee, a powerful flyer, a physical immunity fighter
Very fast T4 with many immunities, Life stealing, Fire breath and Doom gaze. Not very sturdy but very High damage and decent defense, can rival with empire T4


Problems right now are:
Momos Chiula to being a spam faction Need something like a upkeep that Isn't based on tier only and also a production system that Is tied on units rather than tier. For example 1 hex cities could buils their melee in 1 turn and so on. Multiple units in the same turn could be interesting too.

Also I would like weakness like in aow2.

Some skills with counter like aow2 SM would be nice.

Also In the beginning I had units with 10 movement....was good in battle mode but in game was very bad because you have to march forever to reach cities. It would be nice having different speed for battle and map mode like Heroes of might and magic 4

 

[octavius]

Age of Wonders is such a frustrating SP game. It has so much going for it, but is partly ruined by weak and far too timid AI, and some balancing problems. The latter was largely adressed in Shadow Magic, so I consider that clearly superior to AoW1 as a SP game.

I've been trying various mods.
I like MolzyMod; at least it made the campaigns more challenging, and the AI feels less timid. It only broke when playing the Undead and one Grim Reaper with PI beat most of the Human empire.
There are also some other changes that I feel are counter to the intent of mod, making it harder for the AI, like Dwarven Balloons getting missile attacks, making them even more OP than the human's Air Galley since it's much faster to produce. The AI can't deal with fliers with missile or breath attacks.
And making all lvl 4 units being able to deal with Walls and having higher Movement is OK in theory, but in practice in means it's even more tempting to run around with fast stack of super units, lessening the strategic aspect of the game.

I've also tried AoW+, but I feel it's too radical for user-made maps. Will probably try it again on some user made campaign, since it seems to have been designed mainly with the campaigns in mind.

So I looked around for a new mod to test, and Sword and Sorcery Ruleset looked interesting, made by our own BING XI LAO, aka Southern at GoG and Ziggurat Mason at AoWHeaven.
Some very interesting changes, some of which I was initially sceptical of. For example the Grim Reaper can now Fly, but this is offset by not having any Strike ability, so they are completely helpless against machines, thus making using them as lone scouts quite risky.

Spell casting is also much more important now, with spell costs and most units' Resistance lowered, so despite having much more abilities to choose from now, I find myself choosing Spell Casting.

I really like the new Monster and Monster Slaying abilities, too.

All in all I like this mod (with a few tweaks of my own) so far. I like that it makes more of your units valuable and more varied, for example. I've only tested it it with the Undead so far (the old Lord of Nightmares map), and it does change the dynamics of the game when Grim Reapers are no longer your dead meat shields, but you have to rely on Bone Horrors for their high HP or Swordsmen for they high DF instead.

 

[BING XI LAO]

So I looked around for a new mod to test, and Sword and Sorcery Ruleset looked interesting, made by our own BING XI LAO, aka Southern at GoG and Ziggurat Mason at AoWHeaven.
Some very interesting changes, some of which I was initially sceptical of. For example the Grim Reaper can now Fly, but this is offset by not having any Strike ability, so they are completely helpless against machines, thus making using them as lone scouts quite risky.

Spell casting is also much more important now, with spell costs and most units' Resistance lowered, so despite having much more abilities to choose from now, I find myself choosing Spell Casting.

I really like the new Monster and Monster Slaying abilities, too.

All in all I like this mod (with a few tweaks of my own) so far. I like that it makes more of your units valuable and more varied, for example. I've only tested it it with the Undead so far (the old Lord of Nightmares map), and it does change the dynamics of the game when Grim Reapers are no longer your dead meat shields, but you have to rely on Bone Horrors for their high HP or Swordsmen for they high DF instead.

Thanks, however I subsequently made the Ziggurat mod, which probably has every worthwhile change from Sword and Sorcery, plus a lot more.
Ziggurat came after And G told us how to mod the game's AoWEpack.dpl file with a hex editor.

Also PBEM is a very chill experience, you sure you won't try it?

 

[BING XI LAO]

Just noticed this old thread, has a big map pack including multiple campaigns.
Also the great mods of that era, though naturally I have an agenda against those!
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/age-of-wonders-community-content-pack.79063/page-2

 

[octavius]

Thanks, however I subsequently made the Ziggurat mod, which probably has every worthwhile change from Sword and Sorcery, plus a lot more.
Ziggurat came after And G told us how to mod the game's AoWEpack.dpl file with a hex editor.

I will probably try that next. It looks quite promising.

Also PBEM is a very chill experience, you sure you won't try it?

Nah, I had to give it up, that stuff. Too stressful for me (I take it too seriously).
And there are dedicated PBEMs I'd rather play than AoW.

 

[flyingjohn]

Age of Wonders is such a frustrating SP game. It has so much going for it, but is partly ruined by weak and far too timid AI, and some balancing problems. The latter was largely adressed in Shadow Magic, so I consider that clearly superior to AoW1 as a SP game.

I've been trying various mods.
I like MalzyMod; at least it made the campaigns more challenging, and the AI feels less timid. It only broke when playing the Undead and one Grim Reaper with PI beat most of the Human empire.
There are also some other changes that I feel are counter to the intent of mod, making it harder for the AI, like Dwarven Balloons getting missile attacks, making them even more OP than the human's Air Galley since it's much faster to produce. The AI can't deal with fliers with missile or breath attacks.
And making all lvl 4 units being able to deal with Walls and having higher Movement is OK in theory, but in practice in means it's even more tempting to run around with fast stack of super units, lessening the strategic aspect of the game.

I've also tried AoW+, but I feel it's too radical for user-made maps. Will probably try it again on some user made campaign, since it seems to have been designed mainly with the campaigns in mind.

So I looked around for a new mod to test, and Sword and Sorcery Ruleset looked interesting, made by our own BING XI LAO, aka Southern at GoG and Ziggurat Mason at AoWHeaven.
Some very interesting changes, some of which I was initially sceptical of. For example the Grim Reaper can now Fly, but this is offset by not having any Strike ability, so they are completely helpless against machines, thus making using them as lone scouts quite risky.

Spell casting is also much more important now, with spell costs and most units' Resistance lowered, so despite having much more abilities to choose from now, I find myself choosing Spell Casting.

I really like the new Monster and Monster Slaying abilities, too.

All in all I like this mod (with a few tweaks of my own) so far. I like that it makes more of your units valuable and more varied, for example. I've only tested it it with the Undead so far (the old Lord of Nightmares map), and it does change the dynamics of the game when Grim Reapers are no longer your dead meat shields, but you have to rely on Bone Horrors for their high HP or Swordsmen for they high DF instead.

Local idiot here,could you maybe a link for MalzyMod?

 

[octavius]

Local idiot here,could you maybe a link for MalzyMod?

Here you go. I called it MalzyMod, but it's actually MolzyMod.

 

[flyingjohn]

Just noticed this old thread, has a big map pack including multiple campaigns.
Also the great mods of that era, though naturally I have an agenda against those!
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/age-of-wonders-community-content-pack.79063/page-2

Oh boy,this thing.
Here is a working link for anybody interested:
https://www.moddb.com/downloads/community-content-pack/#7951713

Now come the problems.This thing is gonna get picked up as a virus by most anti virus software because it modifies stuff while running,I run totalvirus and half of them are detecting a virus.
Fortunately the onest hat are good(kaspersky,eset) are not detecting it.

 

[Calthaer]

So I am in the process right now of organizing stuff - no better time than when I'm stuck at home, right? The current project is old CDs and DVDs.

Age of Wonders 1 & 2 are two of the games sitting in the "I dunno" pile - the group where I'm not sure whether to put them in the deep archives where they won't be touched or the short-list that I'll plan on working through. My questions for the knowledgeable folks in this thread:

• In a nutshell, what makes this game so great you're still tinkering with it so long after its release?
  
• What's the best way to experience these games? Do I have to get the GOG versions, or are there patches to make the original CDs work?

 

[BING XI LAO]

In a nutshell, what makes this game so great you're still tinkering with it so long after its release?

Mechanics - It doesn't shy away from hard counter mechanics like Flying units being immune to melee walkers, Physical Immunity killing unlimited numbers of mundane troops if they haven't had their weapons buffed with magic damage, etc.
You can level mountains to plains, raise mountains from plains, make all water bodies expand by 3 hexes with the Flood Spell, potentially drowning entire enemy armies, and your heroes can become superheroes not just in terms of fighting, but also in their ability to traverse the map with magic, raze cities and reanimate them as a loyal race, and so on. Fire Immune units can walk across lava, walled cities are impossible to take without a flyer, battering ram or suchlike. Incarnates, the Dark Elf ulttimate unit, can possess enemy units, and if they're slain it pops out again.

Graphics - well see for yourself. Low pixel count but I think the artstyle is wonderful. Just look at the unit portrait in the Codex's avatar selection for the game, as an example.

screenshot from my most recent map

To go along with the aesthetic, the campaign is very well written in AoW1, and in AoW2 it's at least a varied experience in terms of map designs.

What's the best way to experience these games? Do I have to get the GOG versions, or are there patches to make the original CDs work?

Don't know about disks but you'll probably need the showscene patch for AoW1.
For AoW2 you should use the MPE mod, which upgrades and bugfixes the engine, and for AoW1 you should use any mod that lowers spell costs. AoW1 also benefits from a mod that makes it harder to get heroes to 10 DEF, so you'll want either Warlock's Ruleset, AoW+, AoWx, or Ziggurat (I made the last one and naturally recommend it the most).

 

[octavius]

So I am in the process right now of organizing stuff - no better time than when I'm stuck at home, right? The current project is old CDs and DVDs.

Age of Wonders 1 & 2 are two of the games sitting in the "I dunno" pile - the group where I'm not sure whether to put them in the deep archives where they won't be touched or the short-list that I'll plan on working through. My questions for the knowledgeable folks in this thread:

• In a nutshell, what makes this game so great you're still tinkering with it so long after its release?
  
• What's the best way to experience these games? Do I have to get the GOG versions, or are there patches to make the original CDs work?

They have better tactical combat than most CRPGs.
The Strategy part is also great, and you can use much more real life strategy than in for example HoMM. And the global spells and terrain altering spells add an extra dimension to the game.
On the downside the AI is weak (far too timid) and unlike HoMM it can't use many features, so there's not a level playing field in the SP game. There's also some balancing issues (fliers with unlimited breath and missile attacks, Physical Immune units, unlimited retaliation, Leader assassinaton) in the first game. These were all addressed in Shadow Magic, making it the superior SP game of the two (AoW2 was an unfinished game only worth it for the campaign).

I run AoW1 through DgVoodoo myself. IIRC the game runs from original disk, but I bought GOG version on sale since it's faster to (re)install.

 

[adddeed]

So I am in the process right now of organizing stuff - no better time than when I'm stuck at home, right? The current project is old CDs and DVDs.

Age of Wonders 1 & 2 are two of the games sitting in the "I dunno" pile - the group where I'm not sure whether to put them in the deep archives where they won't be touched or the short-list that I'll plan on working through. My questions for the knowledgeable folks in this thread:

• In a nutshell, what makes this game so great you're still tinkering with it so long after its release?
  
• What's the best way to experience these games? Do I have to get the GOG versions, or are there patches to make the original CDs work?

Its like HoMM without the cluttered maps and with actual strategy, and without the retarded stacks of units.
Look at this shit, you spend most of your time collecting trinkets and visiting buildings.
HoMM is what id give my 10 year old nephew to have fun clicking on shiny objects wielding his army of 2000 peasants.

Another series also better than HoMM is Disciples, which is kind of like AoW but much simpler and quicker to play. Lots of fun though.

 

[octavius]

Mechanics - It doesn't shy away from hard counter mechanics like Flying units being immune to melee walkers, Physical Immunity killing unlimited numbers of mundane troops if they haven't had their weapons buffed with magic damage, etc.

Heh, for you it's a virtue (but then you mostly play MP), but for me only playing SP, it becomes boring when one PI unit or one dragon/air ship can conquer a whole faction almost alone.

 

[BING XI LAO]

Yeah, Age of Wonders 1 compares well to HoMM3.
Mainly because units can move around by themselves and cost upkeep, instead of being these weird stacks.
Also, there is fog of war, concealment, and freeform scouting, not just explored = visible unless there's that one map thing that darkens vision for the enemy.

 

[octavius]

Not sure why you gave me that

rating, since I try to avoid using the Awesome Button and do it the hard way instead.

Oh well, I'm still enjoying your S&S mod.
I'm playing the Undead in the old map Lord of Nightmares, an XL 3 level map.
Even with nerfed Wraiths the Undead are probably the most OP faction against the AI, and I was making good progress. I had cast Hatred to try to make things more dynamic, and enourage the other factions to fight each other, but the only tangible result was the Dwarves having a High Men hero defect and and defeat three of their stacks. And then the whole cunning plan backfired when my own Orc main hero rebelled...

So how do you deal with this?
Reject heroes other than Undead ones?
Avoid Looting and Razing non-undead Evil cities?
Give Bard skill to the heroes? Will that be enough?

 

[BING XI LAO]

Not sure why you gave me that

rating, since I try to avoid using the Awesome Button and do it the hard way instead.

Because you SHOULD play PBEM and live games and trashtalk the toxic anime profile pic on the discord who thinks he's the best player!
Clearly you are too

I had cast Hatred to try to make things more dynamic, and enourage the other factions to fight each other, but the only tangible result was the Dwarves having a High Men hero defect and and defeat three of their stacks. And then the whole cunning plan backfired when my own Orc main hero rebelled...

So how do you deal with this?
Reject heroes other than Undead ones?
Avoid Looting and Razing non-undead Evil cities?
Give Bard skill to the heroes? Will that be enough?

In theory you could kill then reanimate him with Animate Hero, I think it switches him to Undead race. Problem is that Animate, Call, and Resurrect Hero are pretty iffy and sometimes the hero won't allow you to rehire him with gold. Even then you could Dominate him, but probably not possible against high DEF score.
Frankly if you're Undead and casting Hatred, you could just RP destroying everything including your own living former allies. It's how the Undead in the campaign behaved!
Also, don't you find being able to get 2 DEF per levelup too easy? Ziggurat and the other hex edit mods (AoW+ and AoWx and Warlock) make it harder.

 

[BING XI LAO]

Breath attacks don't work at melee range.... bugged!

 

[octavius]

In theory you could kill then reanimate him with Animate Hero, I think it switches him to Undead race. Problem is that Animate, Call, and Resurrect Hero are pretty iffy and sometimes the hero won't allow you to rehire him with gold.

Tried that, but it seems to work just like Call and Resurrect Hero; it summons a random dead hero who then refuses to join. Or does it matter where you cast the spell?

Even then you could Dominate him, but probably not possible against high DEF score.

Hmm...that could possibly work.

Frankly if you're Undead and casting Hatred, you could just RP destroying everything including your own living former allies. It's how the Undead in the campaign behaved!

Yeah, I guess I should have had that mindset from the start.

Also, don't you find being able to get 2 DEF per levelup too easy? Ziggurat and the other hex edit mods (AoW+ and AoWx and Warlock) make it harder.

Of the main inbalances I actually find high DEF + unlimited retaliation the least abusive. It's powerful, but it doesn't make the hero invincible. Besides with S&S there's so much other stuff to spend the skill points on.
And since I started replaying AoW last year I've generally gone for leader type instead of a meleer anyway.

EDIT: Dominate worked to get him back, but his morale is still Terrible. And Bard Skill didn't seem to have any effect.

Oh well, at least I learnt something about playing the Undead from this game.

EDIT 2: Hatred is probably most effective (if you want to keep your Orc and Goblin heroes) if you remove it before things turn too ugly.

EDIT 3: Hmm...removing Hatred negated all it's effects instead of just stopping further effects. So now all the good guys love each other again. But at least my heroes will not rebel.

 

[octavius]

Breath attacks don't work at melee range.... bugged!

Yeah, that's annoying. I've seen it in auto mode too, so definitely a bug and not an undocumented design feature.

BTW, when razing a Life Node no avengers appear when using your S&S mod?

 

[BING XI LAO]

BTW, when razing a Life Node no avengers appear when using your S&S mod?

I shortened the selection of possible raze defenders in that mod, and clearly the game considers empty listings as still a valid choice unfortunately. One more reason to upgrade to Ziggurat, where i never got round to messing with raze defender lists yet.