@ Phelot
"WHat is the point of a challenge? Yes, it is to feel satisfaction for overcoming it, but isn't it also to see what else lies ahead? I'm reminded of old NES games were the challenge was fun, yes, but the real excitement came from finally getting to the next stage, which of course looks awesome."
Not really. The objective is the dificult gameplay itself. Having another pretty looking stage is just a side reward. Why do you think so many action games have an
arcade mode were all the story and character stuff, and even the ending, is removed so you can focus on the pew pew? The focus is on the gameplay, the rest are just additions to round the package. Sure, it's cool to have them but you could remove them completely and still be amazed at how cool the stuff is.
The next level looks awesome because you had to sweat blood and cry tears of overpowering frustration just to see it, otherwise all those games where the next level was only a diferent pattern of the very same platforms and walls every other stage used would have had no one playing them. And if you had just, like, waltzed to it without the least trouble it would be crap. It is the dificulty and the challenge that gives meaning to reaching a new level, just like reaching a new and recognized skill level in a sport you like or in playing an instrument or in a martial art you practice has no meaning in and out of itself, but only as a reward for your skill and effort and the totally awesome awesomeness of your harcore and untamed soul, etc. The story, the ending, the next plot based revelation isn't the purpose of the game but an extra something to give more pomp to
you have reached the next skill level, yay.
But when you win Deus Ex and see all those pretentious little endings, what have you got? Do you feel amazing because you have reached a level of strategical planning, skill, or puzzle solving unmatched by the unwashed masses? No, every other retard out there has seen it, and it didn't even need a walkthrough to see it. Seeing that ending has
no value, it's common. Reaching it has
no value, because every retard and her mom and her dog have the skill to do so. It's a casual game, designed so casual players can play it. You know it, i know it, they know it. Value depends on scarcity, and just as when you are nice to everyone being nice has no value at all when a challenge can be surpassed by everyone there's no meaning in surpassing it. You aren't going to get called the Black Cat in part because of your amazing reflexes and reaction times if you train with Deus Ex. T_T
Role Playing Games should give us the tactical and turn based version of
this kind of tense and ridiculous fight were the least mistake can mean you die and must start over instead of the metaphysical vagueries of fantasy land and questions about what can change the nature of a zombie and his flying skull. Something like
this, where you have no chance to win other than by understanding the gameplay to perfection and having a carefully built party, or getting a walkthrough as weaklings do. :3
"While you can always fight and defeat the end boss, you can also mistakenly choose one of the lesser endings such as using the blade of the immortal (is that the name? It's been so long...) so yeah you can fuck up or at the very least not experience certain things."
But using the Blade isn't really lossing, since you can't have it forced upon yourself if your skill isn't up to the challenge set up by the game, it is an optional less than ideal ending. You are never going to find yourself in a situation where, like, someone else gets the blade and where the choices you made make it impossible to escape or survive that encounter no matter what you want as long as you aren't bloody amazing with the combat system and can't survive an almost impossible battle because you know each option as if you had designed the game.
And not experiencing everything isn't
losing if you see the game as a
game and not a bloody book. As in, you are not seeing a big game over, you suck, haha, loser, try again after training those skills for a bunch of months. Or years, maybe. You just missed something and, really, no one cared. It's the roleplaying equivalent of missing the extra life because you did not have the item ot breach the wall, and the extra life at least would have an use.
But i think we both made our viewpoints clear by now.
@ Korenzel
"nterest in challenge ? Bullshit !"
So the false hardcore pretentions of The Codex have finally come to light?
"Damned casuals have infiltrated even the highest spheres !"
Indeed, that's why the good fight must be fought, to reveal the sin of LARPers and unskilled wretches wherever they may lurk and purge them by fire and Nya.
"I didn't find the stealth in Deus Ex worse than in Thief"
So now you are trolling yourself?
"Planning is fine when you can have a rough idea what to expect. Do you have any idea what you'll be facing in a SMT dungeon until you actually do it and die countless times finding out what the opposition consists of ?"
Oh, baw baw, you actually got killed! How terrible! You know, when it is the pretty cat telling you to stop being a pansy there's something wrong with you. Hint: You are not the character. The character dies, you go at it again with the knowledge gained. That's part of the gameplay, or do you think you have a chance in hell of clearing
Mushihimesama Futari without trying a thousand times until you get it just right?
Why should role playing games be any diferent? Play some roguelikes, or play some of those combat heavy old dungeon crawlers that balanced it out against Saving and Loading by throwing really hardcore encounters at you.
Bloody casuals, meh. :3
"Of course, because all "choices" in SMT have clearly foreseeable consequences... Then why do people screw them up, you included ?"
There's a diference between foreasable consequences and having knowledge of everything that will happen in the future. Sure, you know this answer is the Law one and that this answer is the Chaos one, or that going to meet up with Gin instead of attending Mari's fight with her Nemesis will have repercusions in the storyline, but you do not know what those choice's long term repercusions are. Why should you?
"These are not choices, these are guesses. "
Uhm, no. You are picking to side with Law or to side with Chaos, for example, or to do this thing instead of trying to get close to Amane or instead of saving Mari. It's not a guess that in one case you are going Law, and that in other case Mari's going to die a horrible death. It may be a guess that, four chapters later, this may have an effect on the plot, but that's the nature of choices, just as you don't really know if picking this skill over this other skill will break your build or break the game until you have done so. Oh, snap! Character building is guessing! :shock:
@ Felix
Not really, i'm just having fun and passing time while watching videos in youtube and waiting for my boyfriend. I just get all passionate when discussing anything at all, from cooking recipes to dead tongues, that doesn't mean i'm angry or anything.
@ Vibalist
"games are no longer about having fun, they are only about challenge!!!! grrrrrrr!"
So now The Codex is about mindless fun? :3
