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Self-Ejected

Bubbles

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In fact, this is why PR companies exist in the first place - to prevent artists and business owners from saying stupid shit to the commons that gets them savaged.

I don't think Scott was promoted to be Beamdog's publishing and marketing coordinator because she was non-confrontational and well-practised in triangulating her political expressions. Either Beamdog wanted to establish itself as a company with a very strong socially progressive message, or they made a mistake of baffling proportions.
 

ZagorTeNej

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MRY It's kind of interesting to compare this game with Icewind Dale 2, a game that had a somewhat similar premise but didn't provoke this kind of reaction. Part of that is, as I said, 4. This stuff wasn't on people's radars back in 2002.

But there is another thing. By virtue of being a rather simple game, Icewind Dale 2 made whatever anti-racist "SJW" message it had seem tragically doomed, making the game almost subversively anti-SJW in a way. Yes, the Legion of the Chimera catered to the needs of Faerun's discriminated outcasts and that's kind of sad, but they had to die anyway. Keep on hacking and slashing your way through the linear corridor, white man!

Yeah, because every work of art/product is completely defined by its premise, execution is irrelevant :roll:.

Having the option to join Chimera would have made for a better game BTW, especially given that you can play as a half-breed yourself (and there's some reactivity to that IIRC). I also seem to remember Isair ordering his sister Madae around on few occasions, weren't exactly equals in that regard.
 

mastroego

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I would even go and say that the majority of the entertainment *with a message* appears left-leaning, but that may be my perception.

It's like that for ALL media.
The single cases where the opposite happens are cause of great surprise and are very distinctly remembered.
A couple of examples:
- Heinlein's Starship Troopers (the novel, and it should be noted that Heinlein wrote stuff that's considered leftist as well)
- The movie 300.

Come to think of it, I'm out of examples.
The leftist crowd is just a LOT louder and considers "preaching" its sacred and annoying duty.
 
Weasel
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In fact, this is why PR companies exist in the first place - to prevent artists and business owners from saying stupid shit to the commons that gets them savaged.

I don't think Scott was promoted to be Beamdog's publishing and marketing coordinator because she was non-confrontational and well-practised in triangulating her political expressions. Either Beamdog wanted to establish itself as a company with a very strong socially progressive message, or they made a mistake of baffling proportions.

Long before this storm in a codpiece, she made her opinion of gamers very clear on her tumblr. She's going to be brilliant at marketing to the average RPG enthusiast, at least it will be entertaining to watch.


77W7Eb4.jpg
 

Kaivokz

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Is the issue here (1) that the politics are too far left, (2) that the writing is worse, (3) that the gameplay is worse, or (4) that the issue has simply moved from background static to signal due to the years-long GamerGate brouhaha? Or some combination of these things? I'm not particularly interested in Siege of Dragonspear itself, but I am interested in whether there is a shift going on in terms of players' tolerance of messaging in games.

The reason I dislike SoD's political engagement is definitely closest to (2), but rather than bluntly saying the writing is worse than old games, I think that the narrative structure and character design is worse.

Things like not being able to even give a flippant response to Mizhena or simply ignore the fact that Voghiln calls you a wench, when you can otherwise be a downright uncaring bitch. It isn't consistent, and it becomes blatantly obvious when you have 5 choices in a dialogue which are essentially the same; it's hard to even say "My character would at least prefer x over y" ... because x = y. Maybe there are similar examples in BG1 of something like Mizhena, but I can't think of any like Vohgiln.

Similarly, the character design, especially of female characters, seems to be built up from one viewpoint. This isn't present everywhere but it's enough to make you scratch your head at some of the things Viconia or Safana say, for example. This is a bad practice in general with character design, but when you're not even supposed to be designing the characters, because they are pre-established, it comes off as particularly jarring.

Maybe there's a bit of (1), but I don't care about political messages in entertainment as long as the message doesn't come across as more important than the product. I'm a pretty hardcore libertarian, but if I was presented with 5 options in a roleplaying game that were all "individual and civil liberty are the foundation of a flourishing society", that would be shit. I don't want to play a fucking brainwashed slave who has no choice but to adhere to the author's viewpoint, even if I agree with it. Which is, of course, partly because I value liberty and dialogue, but my values are clearly better than this shit
:troll:
but seriously, roleplaying games like Baldur's Gate are built up from valuing freedom of expression and thought; railroading expression is part and parcel of games with established main characters, where you're following someone else's journey, but it doesn't belong here.
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
ZagorTeNej I'm not trying to attack IWD2 or exonerate BG:SoD. I think the contrast is genuinely interesting.

Actually, fiction in general often gets away with showcasing "radical" points of view by portraying them as tragically doomed. This goes for right-wing-oriented views as well - see the Lost Cause of the Confederacy genre. The Legion of the Chimera were the Lost Cause of the Anti-Racist. :P
 
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This may be a risky question to ask, but aren't left-leaning politics (somewhat awkwardly coupled with the more traditionally right-leaning "great man" theory of causation) pretty endemic in even older RPGs? I mean, Dark Sun: Shattered Lands is pretty clearly a mix of environmentalism and poor vs. rich, for example. And Fallout (particularly Fallout 2) makes a point of satirizing right-wing militarism and suburbanism. Almost every fantasy RPG I can think of has had, at some point, some messaging about discrimination and tolerance (Ultima 6 is probably the paradigmatic example of this). Same with bizarre insertions of real-world stuff, like having Bill Gates be a major figure in Arcanum (if only Troika had known what Appleby would become!) or Dan Quayle jokes in FO2.

Is the issue here (1) that the politics are too far left, (2) that the writing is worse, (3) that the gameplay is worse, or (4) that the issue has simply moved from background static to signal due to the years-long GamerGate brouhaha? Or some combination of these things? I'm not particularly interested in Siege of Dragonspear itself, but I am interested in whether there is a shift going on in terms of players' tolerance of messaging in games.

It's a combination of all of the above. But with one important clarification regarding your first point. For me, SJW aren't far left. I always am kinda baffled by US-centric (and nu-Euro too) definition of "left". Classical left ideology was diverse, I mean, if we take even Bakunin and Proudhon - they had way different opinions about what constitutes the anarchy, what role should the state institutes play, if any, in a ideal society, etc. The main unifying factor for all various left ideologies was the idea about ruling class exploiting subjugated classes, and that something needs to be done about it. I'm stating the obvious here, I know, but it's kinda important, because in XIX century and most of the XX the workers' rights really had been in very poor state, there really was class division, subjugation and exploitation. It was blatant, it was in your face, and because of it leftist ideas were so popular, because they answered the real demand in society.

Now - all these factors are still present, but they are way less blatant, and (at least in part either directly because of early leftists' actions, or because of non-leftist government reactions to revolutions and leftists gaining power) workers' rights, women rights and human rights in general become protected and enforced. Most western societies became post-industrial, with functioning social lifts systems. Exploitation of underprivileged is still present, but it's latent, and conducted mostly on economical plane, which is often too hard to understand for your average Joe, especially if Joe can get himself a credit card, mortgage and so on, and fulfill his basic needs. So - for your average trend-follower classic leftism becomes outdated. Not longer it's something cool, revolutionary and trendy, because downtrodden are familiar, boring, and are mostly OK with their place in society. So they need to find some new downtrodden class. Gays, women, trannies, POC (or whatever PC term they are now using for minorities), muslims, etc. Problem is - most of these groups already have gotten their rights, mainstream acceptance and equality.

SJWs though aren't content with equality, no, they need to invent oppression. Most SJWs are from at least middle class, those kids are both privileged themselves, very insular, and not very bright. So instead of tackling many problematic aspects of their respective countries (and there are many, both social and economic) they participate in this retarded Oppression Olympics, where they invent laughable things to be offended about just to feel themselves a part of subjugated class. It's both funny and pathetic.

What riled so many people it's that they used just this tactic in writing for BG: SOD. Forgotten Realms is pretty mild and generic fantasy setting, it's not very realistic concerning peasants, workers, feudals and other classes sets of rights and duties. I'm not surprised by its popularity in USA, honestly, because it's an ideal american everyman setting, where almost everybody can be basically a superhero. Many RPGs are power-fantasies, true, but in Forgotten Realms themes of racial and class oppression, gender discrimination and so on was consciously made almost nonexistent by setting's writers. They wanted to give DM and players fun and colorful world were you kill shit and get epic loot. In Forgotten Realms there's less moralizing than in Dragonlance with its archaic Epic battles of Good and Evil. It's not as deep, philosophical and fantastically diverse as Planescape (or even Spelljammer), it's not a leftist-survivalist dream as Dark Sun is, it doesn't explore (at least not as a main theme) the darkest corners of humanoid mind as Ravenloft does, it's not an exotic setting where you can explore middle eastern themes like you can in Al-Quadim, etc. It one of the most theme-parky settings second edition era, IMO. It just isn't suited for head-on exploration of contemporary oppression themes.

Now, a good DM, or CRPG writer can explore this themes, but making them a) subtle and b) relevant to both setting, and the theme and the mood of the campaign. But both theme and the mood of original BG (especially the first one) wasn't about exploration of class oppression, gender equality and gender politics, LGBTQABBQ rights and complexes, money distribution among downtrodden and so on. So SOD rubs most players in wrong way not because of "leftism", but because the authors' approach was something like this: imagine you plaing an epic campaign in a span of a few years. You have your favourite NPCs, DM provides kick-ass dungeons, sweet loot, great combat, somewhat retarded, but enjoyable NPC drama and nice overreaching story. And then, out of the blue, this campaign goes to another DM, who proceeds with imposing on a bewildered party his view on women rights, importance of pronouns and battling transmisogyny, insists that your sweet loot should be distributed among underprivileged classes, etc, etc. Most tabletop players would quit in such circumstances, only minority, which shares the new DM views, will remain. And that's basically what we're seing here.

tl;dr SJWs are dumb privileged shits, and not "left" in a true sense; Forgotten Realms is one of the most unsuited settings to explore SJW themes, mainly because many of their imagined "oppressions" just aren't present there; SOD shat on both theme and mood of BG's campaign, inserting their favourite themes into narrative without hesitation or even a lick of sense - hence the backlash.
 

PhantasmaNL

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I would even go and say that the majority of the entertainment *with a message* appears left-leaning, but that may be my perception.

It's like that for ALL media.
The single cases where the opposite happens are cause of great surprise and are very distinctly remembered.
A couple of examples:
- Heinlein's Starship Troopers (the novel, and it should be noted that Heinlein wrote stuff that's considered leftist as well)
- The movie 300.

Come to think of it, I'm out of examples.
The leftist crowd is just a LOT louder and considers "preaching" its sacred and annoying duty.

Dont know the book but funny how the movie Starship Troopers is actually leftwing. It is smart and superb satire though, a very entertaining movie.

And yeah the lefties i know are obsessed with making the world a better place, according to their blueprints that is. Discussing with these people can be exhausting but on the bright side they are easily trolled (or should i say triggered).
 

MRY

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@ZagorTeNej -- Indeed, I've written comparisons and criticisms of FO2 along those lines myself in this very forum.

mastroego -- There are lots of them from days of yore. Looking at more recent stuff, there's Goodkind's Sword of Truth series and John C. Wright's Golden Age, both of which were mass-market releases from major publishers. There's a lot of mil-SF, especially John Ringo's stuff. Depending on where you situate libertarianism, there's Cryptonomicon. If I thought a bit longer I could gin up a long list, I think.

Stainless Veteran I use "left" and "right" as shorthand, but you're correct, that there can be endless debate over these terms.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Forgotten Realms is pretty mild and generic fantasy setting,

MotB is an example of how you recontextualize a setting like FR and make it infinitely interesting, so it's not really true that everything should be filtered through an imaginary prism of "ordinary fantasy" just because FR is an "ordinary fantasy setting". You can dig deep and find many fucked up things in it that you can shine a light on.
 

AetherVagrant

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maybe im just not far enough into the game......because except for that one conversation with one character....ive had no trouble running an evil party or experienced the writers trying to redistibute my goods. The most unrealistic thing so far is that former party members still hang about camp despite me being a dick to them...there's a realistic portrayal of western women for ya. but then half the commentators aren't even playing just reading forums for evidence of the the great ugly-chick-evil that's arising in the east.
 
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Forgotten Realms is pretty mild and generic fantasy setting,

MotB is an example of how you recontextualize a setting like FR and make it infinitely interesting, so it's not really true that everything should be filtered through an imaginary prism of "ordinary fantasy" just because FR is an "ordinary fantasy setting". You can dig deep and find many fucked up things in it that you can shine a light on.
MotB both borrowed plot hooks, creatures and mood from Planescape (the setting) and was built on PST foundation. So we can't say it's just your typical Forgotten Realms story. Also it was written by competent, talented people. :ziets:

Shit writer, of course, will fuck up story based on any setting. But if we're talking about your average ability DM or writer, setting will influence both the theme and the mood of writing, and also the plot. Most won't go all subversive on players' asses. And FR at the core is a a nice, colorful, bit generic thempark-y power fantasy. Nothing wrong with it, but it's not philosophical or even simply edgy setting by any measure.
 
Self-Ejected

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The right is too busy going into business and making money to, you know, make movies.

But... but... they have Clint Eastwood.

They have much more than that:

The Lord of the Rings Trilogy (Peter Jackson, 2001, 2002, 2003)

All three parts of the Lord of the Rings trilogy were breathtaking pieces of cinema – The Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, and finally The Return of the King, which won Best Picture at the 2004 Academy Awards. J.R.R. Tolkien, the author of Lord of the Rings, was a devout Catholic and conservative, and a close friend of C.S. Lewis at Oxford. His vision of a mighty battle between good and evil in the realms of Middle Earth was brilliantly transferred to the screen by New Zealand director Peter Jackson, perfectly fitting a post 9/11 world where the forces of freedom found themselves pitted against a barbaric enemy. A two-part prequel to the trilogy - The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey, and The Hobbit: There and Back Again – will be released in December 2012 and December 2013.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/n...top-10-conservative-movies-of-the-modern-era/
 

mastroego

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Dont know the book but funny how the movie Starship Troopers is actually leftwing. It is smart and superb satire though, a very entertaining movie.
The movie took the title from the novel and little else.
The book is ALL about politics.
Heinlein took delight in selecting a belief set and justify it with CONVINCING rhetoric.
To this day, many consider Heinlein a right wing extremist because of that book, not knowing about all the other stuff he wrote.

mastroego -- There are lots of them from days of yore. Looking at more recent stuff, there's Goodkind's Sword of Truth series and John C. Wright's Golden Age, both of which were mass-market releases from major publishers.
Hhmm, ok, still things with very minor cultural impact.

But... but... they have Clint Eastwood.
Yeah, but he ACTED, he didn't preach.
Which is kind of my point ;)
And even Clint is all about integration, nowadays :D
 

Theldaran

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And the White Hand mark, and the Southron evil niggas, but that was all inherited from Tolkien. Whom was more of a 19th century person than from the 20th.
 

Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
MotB both borrowed plot hooks, creatures and mood from Planescape (the setting) and was built on PST foundation. So we can't say it's just your typical Forgotten Realms story. Also it was written by competent, talented people. :ziets:

Shit writer, of course, will fuck up story based on any setting. But if we're talking about your average ability DM or writer, setting will influence both the theme and the mood of writing, and also the plot. Most won't go all subversive on players' asses. And FR at the core is a a nice, colorful, bit generic thempark-y power fantasy. Nothing wrong with it, but it's not philosophical or even simply edgy setting by any measure.

Of course it isn't a standard Forgotten Realms story, just like Anna Karenina is not your average romance novel. I consider it immoral to be banal and cliche. Apparently Hegel did, too (the philosopher, not the user). Soooo, yeah. You can make a subversive and serious story in a light-hearted way too, like Tartuffe. The crux of the matter is competent writers of course.
 

MRY

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mastroego -- There are lots of them from days of yore. Looking at more recent stuff, there's Goodkind's Sword of Truth series and John C. Wright's Golden Age, both of which were mass-market releases from major publishers.
Hhmm, ok, still things with very minor cultural impact.
Well, not a lot of contemporary speculative fiction has a major cultural impact. The strongest impact comes from older stuff where there is a considerable right-leaning presence (Lovecraft, Howard, C.A. Smith, arguably C.S. Lewis*). Nevertheless, Sword of Truth sold >25M copies as of 2008 and spawned a TV show. Other examples would be Orson Scott Card's stuff*, Niven and Pournelle's writing. Atlas Shrugged, but even though it's science fiction it probably belongs more to the Serious Allegorical Science Fiction category with We, 1984, Brave New World, etc.

(* With Lewis and Card, it's a bit complicated because their Christian/LDS proselytizing converges with left-wing stuff, at times, when it comes to issues like pacifism.)
 

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