Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 2 is vastly overrated

[Zboj Lamignat]

BG1 is a bit like POE1, only multiplied. What I mean by that is that it is a game that extremely lucked out on release date/circumstances and, as such, became a symbol of "Crpg revival" and a childhood classic for many current day hardcore crpg connoisseurs. It also has an unquestionable status of a game that will be mentioned by people in any crpg discussion, top ever list, retrospection etc., even if they never played it. Does it deserve all that? Who cares.

BG2 ported over many BG1's flaws, but it has good and varied encounters, amazing itemization, many huge, memorable, quests that instill a real sense of adventure, improved char/party building a bit (still poor, but improved). It also got rid of gameplay consisting of clearing the fog of war from rts maps leftover from before the development change and minimized the "A little girls asks you to find her cat. The cat's corpse is 20 meters away. You give that cat to the girl. End." quest design.

Ultimately, I guess both games are overrated and a big factor behind the catastrophic extinction of crpgs in the first decade of xxi century.

 

[maximusriley]

Weren't BG1 and 2 the games that saved CRPGs from extinction? That showed that games like that could still be viable and profitable? To me, they're some of the most amazing games I've ever played, and not overrated in the slightest. I'd have to wait until Mass Effect to have the same kind of "Holy shit, this is amazing!" reaction that I had when I booted up BG1 for the first time.

 

[kangaxx]

Ultimately, I guess both games are overrated and a big factor behind the catastrophic extinction of crpgs in the first decade of xxi century.

Genuinely interested, why do you think BG1 & 2 contributed to the relative extinction of CRPGs immediately after their release?

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Mostly reinforcing the image of a successful crpg as a storyfag iso rtwp game with romances and funneh/quirky/sexy npcs with lots of (poorly written) dialogue. Which then steadily devolved into 3d more-or-less open world action games with some stats that pretty much equal crpg genre in the eyes of a normie today, while everything else withered and died.

 

[kangaxx]

Do you think titles such as Deus Ex and SS2 contributed to this 'decline'?

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

No, they are their own thing (that also declined and pretty much died). I'm also one of the people who love SS2 et al., but really don't see them as crpgs. It's true that many popamole shooters have inventory, level ups etc. these days, but I don't think turn of the century fps/crpg hybrids had much to do with that.

 

[Infinitron]

2. The fact that Irenicus took a whole entourage with him into exile, and that together they initially did a lot of good out in the world, is only mentioned in passing by Ellisime and Rieltar. Apparently this was supposed to be a bigger plot point.

Wait, Rieltar? The Iron Throne leader?

Also you're misspelling Ellesime.

 

[Sweeper]

Stop posting non-RPG related shit in the General RPG forum. Several of you have done so ITT and at least one of you in particular is starting to make a habit of it.

You know who you are and you have been duly warned.

 

[Joseph Stalin]

2. The fact that Irenicus took a whole entourage with him into exile, and that together they initially did a lot of good out in the world, is only mentioned in passing by Ellisime and Rieltar. Apparently this was supposed to be a bigger plot point.

Wait, Rieltar? The Iron Throne leader?

Also you're misspelling Ellesime.

Jesus Christ, I've mispelled horribly. I meant Rielev.

Someone also posted "citation needed" when I stated that Ellesime travelled the world prior to the events of the second game - this is confirmed in our conversation with Prism in Baldur's Gate I - he saw her on the outskirts of Evereska, Xan's home city.

 

[Gumar]

Baldur's Gate 2 is definitely not a "shit" game, the epithet many of the enlightened posters here are putting up for me.
Secondly, the rant was because its highly overrated as the "best RPG" of all times. It's definitely not a work of art. Its a mediocre or an above-average game, simply because majority of the "vast" and "generalist" games fail to produce artistic things. They get lost in the mist.

Divinity Original sin combat was praised tremendously. That was probably the biggest reason for the success of that game. IE combat is decidedly inferior to divinity combat. You feel more satisfied in the control you have over your characters and the ease of using every option in your inventory to your advantage. scrolls, wands, environmental variables weren't mostly touched in IE games, as the gear and loot were extremely specific to certain classes, that you almost always had to sell 90% of what you found.

Dragon Age's combat was nothing special but the cutscenes, the personality and the way its characters drove emotion into their dialogues and faces were superb. Its cutscenes could make a mini-movie in itself. Plus, its art was 3D done right, after messing around in the two Neverwinters. Its story again was not special but the way it was paced and described was superb. Its Lore unfolded slowly, (courtesly of being a new game) and you were always intrigued by the new codex discoveries.
After that, the series went downhill sadly, especially in the artistic sense.

Baldur's Gate 2 could be made into a dozen small mini-games with some extensions. however, stitching it all together was not a very good idea.

BG2 had sporadic stuff that was brilliant. For example, Watcher's Keep was a genuinely good dungeon which used the same formula of going down and down into hell itself, first initiated by diablo (or maybe some 1980s game that I don't know of) and it was widely praised in the Endless Paths of Od Nua, in Pillars of Eternity as well. The Umar hills quest also gave a low level, hero to the rescue vibe with a good horror story to the boot, but again, it seemed far too disconnected to the main plot.

Also, Diablo was more than combat (simply because people preferred its endlessly repetitive combat is not my reason to like it). Its atmosphere and music were excellent. The creepy claustrophobic feeling of descending, the ancient moldy tomes with excellent dialogues and haunting backstories of heaven and hell gave the game a truly distinctive feel. Diablo 3 ruined the atmosphere with the World of Warcraft animations and colorful flowers everywhere.

BG1 gets a bad rep because of the game is somewhat boring, but its made to be a low level, mystery adventure. It doesn't pretend to have godlike monsters, world-ending scenarios and mad wizards. It was intended as quaint little game and it succeeded in reaching those small heights. BG2 tried to play God and somehow failed to reach that pinnacle, artistically.

I haven't played torment yet, but I suspect that the praise it gets is genuine because Planescape Torment didn't pretend to do stuff, it didn't want to. It contented itself with a philosophical plot with a tremendous variety of decision making.

 

[Silly Germans]

Baldur's Gate 2 is definitely not a "shit" game, the epithet many of the enlightened posters here are putting up for me.
Secondly, the rant was because its highly overrated as the "best RPG" of all times. It's definitely not a work of art. Its a mediocre or an above-average game, simply because majority of the "vast" and "generalist" games fail to produce artistic things. They get lost in the mist.

Divinity Original sin combat was praised tremendously. That was probably the biggest reason for the success of that game. IE combat is decidedly inferior to divinity combat. You feel more satisfied in the control you have over your characters and the ease of using every option in your inventory to your advantage. scrolls, wands, environmental variables weren't mostly touched in IE games, as the gear and loot were extremely specific to certain classes, that you almost always had to sell 90% of what you found.

Dragon Age's combat was nothing special but the cutscenes, the personality and the way its characters drove emotion into their dialogues and faces were superb. Its cutscenes could make a mini-movie in itself. Plus, its art was 3D done right, after messing around in the two Neverwinters. Its story again was not special but the way it was paced and described was superb. Its Lore unfolded slowly, (courtesly of being a new game) and you were always intrigued by the new codex discoveries.
After that, the series went downhill sadly, especially in the artistic sense.

Baldur's Gate 2 could be made into a dozen small mini-games with some extensions. however, stitching it all together was not a very good idea.

BG2 had sporadic stuff that was brilliant. For example, Watcher's Keep was a genuinely good dungeon which used the same formula of going down and down into hell itself, first initiated by diablo (or maybe some 1980s game that I don't know of) and it was widely praised in the Endless Paths of Od Nua, in Pillars of Eternity as well. The Umar hills quest also gave a low level, hero to the rescue vibe with a good horror story to the boot, but again, it seemed far too disconnected to the main plot.

Also, Diablo was more than combat (simply because people preferred its endlessly repetitive combat is not my reason to like it). Its atmosphere and music were excellent. The creepy claustrophobic feeling of descending, the ancient moldy tomes with excellent dialogues and haunting backstories of heaven and hell gave the game a truly distinctive feel. Diablo 3 ruined the atmosphere with the World of Warcraft animations and colorful flowers everywhere.

BG1 gets a bad rep because of the game is somewhat boring, but its made to be a low level, mystery adventure. It doesn't pretend to have godlike monsters, world-ending scenarios and mad wizards. It was intended as quaint little game and it succeeded in reaching those small heights. BG2 tried to play God and somehow failed to reach that pinnacle, artistically.

I haven't played torment yet, but I suspect that the praise it gets is genuine because Planescape Torment didn't pretend to do stuff, it didn't want to. It contented itself with a philosophical plot with a tremendous variety of decision making.

BG2 is praised because it does pretty much all aspects of rpg's better than average. And yes, that can get you to the top since all aspects of a game matter for an overall enjoyable experience and it also causes the game the be popular with many people even if their opinions differ on what aspect is especially important to a rpg. Being great in a single aspect cannot compensate for being terrible at everything else. You may get a handful of people that value that aspect over everything else, this group will praise the game and put it on a pedestal but everyone else will see a shit game with one good quality. I don't think that BG 2 will win a contest when you focus on a single part, like writing/story, combat system, world design, quest design, but it certainly scores high in all those departments. Only the magic system and the feeling of being a powerful mage might be a point where it takes the crown.

Your criticism of BG 2 is also very weak. The games that you laud do the exact same things that you criticize in BG2 even worse. Athkatla beats any city of the games that you named. Denerim is a joke, Ostagar isn't much better and Icewind Dale doesn't even have a city to speak of. The same goes for Villains. Also think for a moment what the word "side quest" means and then ponder about your complaint that they aren't connected to the main quest. Do you also complain at a first class buffet that the servings are too large ?

 

[NJClaw]

BG2 is praised because it does pretty much all aspects of rpg's better than average.

Come on, we all know that BG2 is praised because you can get tasty elven pussy in three different flavors.

 

[NJClaw]

BG2 is praised because it does pretty much all aspects of rpg's better than average.

Come on, we all know that BG2 is praised because you can get tasty elven pussy in three different flavors.

My bad, FOUR different flavors.

 

[octavius]

Come on, we all know that BG2 is praised because you can get tasty elven pussy in three different flavors.

Oh my!

 

[Silly Germans]

BG2 is praised because it does pretty much all aspects of rpg's better than average.

Come on, we all know that BG2 is praised because you can get tasty elven pussy in three different flavors.

My bad, FOUR different flavors.

3 was actually acceptable. Half elves only count for 1/2 in Elf-Algebra, although some scholars insist that all Beamdog elements should be considered to have a measure of zero, which would bring us down to 2.5. You ought consider a refreshment course in pussy calculus at your local college.

 

[Mr. Magniloquent]

It's almost like people hate having a large variety of well made quests in a genre where the principle driver is the PC....questing. Perhaps the player should only be able to earn coin necessary to advance the plot through a curated tunnel of plot points. Fuck choice. To hell with variety. Exploration and discovery are chores. Elaborate side-quests are so much distraction.

Seems that you fail to see the difference between finely crafted gameworld with interesting quests and mishmash of almost unconnected ideas and events. The finest examples of the former are Fallout 1 or Arcanum. The latter is BG series and any Shittesda games.

In Act II, you're in a capital city of a wealthy nation and need to raise a bunch of coin to advance the plot. ANY quest that is profitable is appropriate at that point. ANY. A Keep with a Troll infestation, a village with a roaming monster problem, a merchant town in a dispute with militant druids, a bored dragon plotting revenge. They're all wonderful quests with cool locations, interesting monsters to fight, and awesome loot to plunder. These are just the quests that happen outside Athkatla. The city itself has its own wealth of interesting an engaging quests that bring the city alive. Troublesome cultists in the Temple district? Intrigues at the docks? Liberating slaves in the Slums? Murders in the Bridge District? Secrets and restless dead in the Graveyard District?

There are so many well made quests that weave into each other through each district, yet somehow this game world isn't finely crafted? All of these things happening in the game world independent of your character, somehow doesn't create a vivid backdrop? Your criticism is that all of these opportunities to earn the required coin to advance to the next act don't have a narrative function to the central plot, and are therefore superfluous? Absurd. Does the game force you to take every single quest, when you could follow the plot strictly by the time you get to the Slums? You are suffering diminished capacity to think from all that blood loss. Put the razor down, Edgelord.

 

[Kainan]

Its Lore unfolded slowly and you were always intrigued by the new codex discoveries.

 

[Immortal]

get revenge on Johnny boy for killing Khalid.

Why? Cause we as the player wanted to do it first?

 

[Tyranicon]

BG2 is praised because it does pretty much all aspects of rpg's better than average.

Come on, we all know that BG2 is praised because you can get tasty elven pussy in three different flavors.

Baagh elves. Real men romance ogres.

 

[Lilura]

There are so many well made quests that weave into each other through each district, yet somehow this game world isn't finely crafted?

Thing is, the vast majority don't weave into each other at all. Instead, they are completely separated from each other, with no hint at all or suggestion of each other (much like the non-contiguous maps). This is the definition of NOT finely crafted. It is the definition of hotchpotch. It is lazy, thoughtless design. The opposite to Arcanum.

Tarant SHITS on Athkatla. Swordflight's Calimport does, too.

All of these things happening in the game world independent of your character, somehow doesn't create a vivid backdrop?

It does if you like to derp about in themeparks.

 

[Cryomancer]

Divinity Original sin combat was praised tremendously.

Is the WORST combat by far in any CRPG.

• Awful spells ever
• Worst armor mechanics ever
• Slow animations in a TB game
• Stat sticky itemization
• Cooldowns
• Archers that can't hit a mammoth at 14m
• (...)

Only the magic system and the feeling of being a powerful mage might be a point where it takes the crown.

Yep. Spells on BG2 are so great.

Icewind Dale(not the EE, beamdog actually fixed it) has only extremely lackluster spells.

as the gear and loot were extremely specific to certain classes, that you almost always had to sell 90% of what you found.

Wrong. Completely wrong. You use a lot of different weapons depending on the enemy. For eg, a clay golem appears? Switch to blunt magical weapons.

Baagh elves. Real men romance ogres.

To what? Produce uggly dumb half ogres?

 

[Lilura]

Icewind Dale [...] has only extremely lackluster spells.

That is actually one of IWD's merits, not flaws. It managed to reign in spellcasters by limiting their repertoire as well as the effectiveness of that repertoire through itemization contraints and combat encounter design.

Melee is big in IWD, so spellcasters play a supporting role. However, that role is profound. Consider Haste doubling ApR, along with the following spells:

I like how IWD slays players who don't buff, debuff and ward.

 

[Cryomancer]

t managed to reign in spellcasters by limiting their repertoire as well as the effectiveness of that repertoire through itemization contraints and combat encounter design(...), so spellcasters play a supporting role. However, that role is profound. Consider Haste doubling ApR, along with the following spells:

Magic is lackluster in all Sawyer games. Except IWD 2. The worst game to play as a magician from him is NWN2. On P&P mages can do far more than just "support"... For me, who like to play this RPG's not only for a challenging combat but for escapism/power fantasy, this is a huge letdown. I love using powerful magic in high fantasy games and powerful firearms in games like fallout new vegas/deus ex. Don't get me wrong, I liked IWD1 but I prefer to play the game with all crazy spells and even some mods and play as a pale master, with the Artisan kit-pack ( https://artisans-corner.com/the-artisans-kitpack/ )

I get that some people don't like mages shaping reality, conjuring hordes from hell, OHK an army and stopping the time while they can only swing an weapon but this notion that spellcasters should be support only kinda ruins the point of a high magical setting IMO. And there is nothing wrong with preferring low magic or no magic settings. D&D is just a high magical setting.

 

[Lilura]

Magic is lackluster in all Sawyer games.

Don't really like the negative connotation of "lacklustre". Spellcasters in AD&D2 must be reigned in or they dominate battlescapes, dictate combat encounter outcomes and render other party members redundant.

We do this by limiting their repertoire, limiting spell scroll itemization, and throwing hordes of tough, magic-resistant or magic-immune enemies at spellcasters. Or by employing resting restrictions and crushing on-rest ambushes which all RPGs that employ Vancian magic system should have, but IWD didn't do a good job there.

Except IWD 2.

Exactly. Sorcerer ruined the game balance because they're not reliant on spell scroll itemization. Thus, solo Sorcerer is the easiest way to win IWD2. Because the game isn't balanced for the repertoire solo Sorcerers have at their disposal. Of course, it is not an achievement of any kind to solo IE games. Lilura laughs hard at those who boast of soloing.

On P&P mages can do far more than just "support"...

Well, IWD mages do have Web but the tactics of AoE immobilization requires that allies have Free Action status, which is a cheesy acquisition in IWD. They also have Fireball and Skull Trap, but yeah, in general, they are nowhere near as powerful as BG and BG2 mages. I didn't mind, though, because it was something different.

Don't get me wrong, I liked IWD1 but I prefer to play the game with all crazy spells

Well, IWD is a melee-based RPG. ApR is King. And mages double ApR for warriors, so I didn't mind. Also, most people dual-class or multi-class mages to fighter in IWD because melee is so strong, and the mage part turns the fighter part into supertanker with Mirror Image.

D&D is just a high magical setting.

True, but I didn't mind mages not dominating in one IE game. Also, I'm only talking about v.1.06 of IWD. I have no interest in its expansion (where mages and other spellcasters get more powerful).

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Outside of enjoying some magic-using classes due to their theme, I'm old fashioned and prefer the visual of the knight staring down the huge dragon.

MELEE ALL THE WAY.