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Hace El Oso

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I don't think looking at them as a proper "race" like for example the Drow is the right way to approach them. Racially they are humans, but they are tainted with the blood of Devils, which ARE a universal force of evil. Despite how any individual Tiefling chooses to behave they are still ultimately a way for Hell to defy universal law and gain a foothold on the prime material plane.

I don’t think that there is any way that can be made to work with the modern sensibilities of the usual suspects. It’s funny, it used to be that some people actually enjoyed roleplaying as an evil character (and everyone else enjoyed fighting them), but as all of the ‘talk’ has become more and more about promoting ‘moral grey’ the more people expect everyone to have the character of an ingénue or a maiden aunt.
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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Are Tieflings naturally evil or is it just the case of having bad enough luck to be born as one? I thought they are the case of "what if a Drow could be a good person" kind of thing (which is par for the course nowadays).

Tieflings have been filed under misunderstood based on appearance rather than evil due to lineage for years now. Look at Neeshka in NWN2, also in the Forgotten Realms.

From their inception in the Planescape Campaign Setting box set, tieflings were defined as mostly human with some minor ancestry from denizens of the Lower Planes. Their only prohibited alignment was Lawful Good, but they were nonetheless reflexively distrusted by humans. There are a number of NPC tieflings with NG and CG alignments in the various Planescape campaign setting books (also at least one with LG alignment!).
 

Harthwain

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I don’t think that there is any way that can be made to work with the modern sensibilities of the usual suspects. It’s funny, it used to be that some people actually enjoyed roleplaying as an evil character (and everyone else enjoyed fighting them), but as all of the ‘talk’ has become more and more about promoting ‘moral grey’ the more people expect everyone to have the character of an ingénue or a maiden aunt.
I think people still enjoy playing as evil characters (as well as shady ones). At the same time I prefer "moral grey", as you put it, because opponents that are purely evil (like, stupid evil) tend to be boring compared to someone who has interesting motivations behind his morally questionable actions.

That's why I enjoyed Denethor from Lords of the Rings (the book trilogy, not the movies) - he is an intelligent and noble character who gets corrupted by the manipulations of evil. Or "The Enemy Within" - this is a book in Warhammer Dark Fantasy setting written by Richard Lee Byers, a guy who has a master's degree in Psychology and it shows, because the book pretty damn good in what it tries to do. There is the obvious evil (the forces of Chaos, cultists, etc.), but the initial motivation of the protagonist is to save his own skin by working for the Witch Hunters. After that it gets worse, but the pace is such that both the protagonist and the reader are not noticing how the corruption starts taking its toil. And when the realization comes you're so deep that you might as well follow through on this, because the alternative is worse (and quite ironic, which is another thing I like about the story).
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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I don’t think that there is any way that can be made to work with the modern sensibilities of the usual suspects. It’s funny, it used to be that some people actually enjoyed roleplaying as an evil character (and everyone else enjoyed fighting them), but as all of the ‘talk’ has become more and more about promoting ‘moral grey’ the more people expect everyone to have the character of an ingénue or a maiden aunt.
I think people still enjoy playing as evil characters (as well as shady ones). At the same time I prefer "moral grey", as you put it, because opponents that are purely evil (like, stupid evil) tend to be boring compared to someone who has interesting motivations behind his morally questionable actions.

That's why I enjoyed Denethor from Lords of the Rings (the book trilogy, not the movies) - he is an intelligent and noble character who gets corrupted by the manipulations of evil. Or "The Enemy Within" - this is a book in Warhammer Dark Fantasy setting written by Richard Lee Byers, a guy who has a master's degree in Psychology and it shows, because the book pretty damn good in what it tries to do. There is the obvious evil (the forces of Chaos, cultists, etc.), but the initial motivation of the protagonist is to save his own skin by working for the Witch Hunters. After that it gets worse, but the pace is such that both the protagonist and the reader are not noticing how the corruption starts taking its toil. And when the realization comes you're so deep that you might as well follow through on this, because the alternative is worse (and quite ironic, which is another thing I like about the story).

There's no joy in Denethor. You can appreciate Tolkien's depiction but for people to reach for the word enjoyment in that context is a mark of how far things have gone astray.
 

Harthwain

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There's no joy in Denethor. You can appreciate Tolkien's depiction but for people to reach for the word enjoyment in that context is a mark of how far things have gone astray.
And what is this semantical sophistry supposed to accomplish? "Enjoyed" may not be the perfect word there, but it is close enough in the sense that I like the tragic character of Denethor more than some banal black-and-white depiction where there is not even a room for thought.
 

Saravan

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There's no joy in Denethor. You can appreciate Tolkien's depiction but for people to reach for the word enjoyment in that context is a mark of how far things have gone astray.
And what is this semantical sophistry supposed to accomplish? "Enjoyed" may not be the perfect word there, but it is close enough in the sense that I like the tragic character of Denethor more than some banal black-and-white depiction where there is not even a room for thought.

This is the hallmark of pure autism right here. Saying I enjoyed a character is interpreted as being wrong because there is no joy in the character itself. What a tool.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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There's no joy in Denethor. You can appreciate Tolkien's depiction but for people to reach for the word enjoyment in that context is a mark of how far things have gone astray.
And what is this semantical sophistry supposed to accomplish? "Enjoyed" may not be the perfect word there, but it is close enough in the sense that I like the tragic character of Denethor more than some banal black-and-white depiction where there is not even a room for thought.

It’s not close. Denethor is like a nagging toothache. Liking is a different thing. Using words like that in this context is a mark of overabstraction/detachment.

Artistically the character and it’s depiction is better than the alternatives but to say that is an empirical statement about the book and/or the writing not one’s own opinions or preferences, let alone likes and joys.

I like ice cream and enjoy hiking with my boys. I dislike intensely reading the Denethor passages and they fill me with despair and foreboding not joy. Not because they are poorly written but because they’re written so well.
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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Are Tieflings naturally evil or is it just the case of having bad enough luck to be born as one? I thought they are the case of "what if a Drow could be a good person" kind of thing (which is par for the course nowadays).

Tieflings have been filed under misunderstood based on appearance rather than evil due to lineage for years now. Look at Neeshka in NWN2, also in the Forgotten Realms.

From their inception in the Planescape Campaign Setting box set, tieflings were defined as mostly human with some minor ancestry from denizens of the Lower Planes. Their only prohibited alignment was Lawful Good, but they were nonetheless reflexively distrusted by humans. There are a number of NPC tieflings with NG and CG alignments in the various Planescape campaign setting books (also at least one with LG alignment!).

The Tiefling-specific Bloodrager Archetype Reformed Fiend in Wrath of the Righteous is restricted to Good Alignments only, including LG.
 
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Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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I don't think looking at them as a proper "race" like for example the Drow is the right way to approach them. Racially they are humans, but they are tainted with the blood of Devils, which ARE a universal force of evil. Despite how any individual Tiefling chooses to behave they are still ultimately a way for Hell to defy universal law and gain a foothold on the prime material plane.

I don’t think that there is any way that can be made to work with the modern sensibilities of the usual suspects. It’s funny, it used to be that some people actually enjoyed roleplaying as an evil character (and everyone else enjoyed fighting them), but as all of the ‘talk’ has become more and more about promoting ‘moral grey’ the more people expect everyone to have the character of an ingénue or a maiden aunt.

Everybody at the Kotex wants to RP LE which is really just LG in disguise with some extra edginess.
 

Hace El Oso

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I think people still enjoy playing as evil characters (as well as shady ones). At the same time I prefer "moral grey", as you put it, because opponents that are purely evil (like, stupid evil) tend to be boring compared to someone who has interesting motivations behind his morally questionable actions.

I agree, but my point is that as the volume of talk about ‘morally grey’, ‘mature’ characters and storylines has become constant, all those supposedly morally grey characters have become sanitized goofball rascals.
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I don't think looking at them as a proper "race" like for example the Drow is the right way to approach them. Racially they are humans, but they are tainted with the blood of Devils, which ARE a universal force of evil. Despite how any individual Tiefling chooses to behave they are still ultimately a way for Hell to defy universal law and gain a foothold on the prime material plane.

I don’t think that there is any way that can be made to work with the modern sensibilities of the usual suspects. It’s funny, it used to be that some people actually enjoyed roleplaying as an evil character (and everyone else enjoyed fighting them), but as all of the ‘talk’ has become more and more about promoting ‘moral grey’ the more people expect everyone to have the character of an ingénue or a maiden aunt.

Everybody at the Kotex wants to RP LE which is really just LG in disguise with some extra edginess.
LE just means Legally Edgy after all.
 

Grunker

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objective prestigousness-ranking of alignments:

lawful evil
lawful good
lawful neutral
neutral evil
chaotic good
neutral
chaotic evil
chaotic neutral
neutral good
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
objective prestigousness-ranking of alignments:

lawful evil
lawful good
lawful neutral
neutral evil
chaotic good
neutral
chaotic evil
chaotic neutral
neutral good
I'd argue that CE and NG ought to switch places at the very least.
 

Grunker

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objective prestigousness-ranking of alignments:

lawful evil
lawful good
lawful neutral
neutral evil
chaotic good
neutral
chaotic evil
chaotic neutral
neutral good
I'd argue that CE and NG ought to switch places at the very least.

I admit that a bit of a personal dislike might have crept in there. NG is just the ultimate basic bitch alignment - the alignment you pick if you want to play cRPGs that allow you to solve everything and get a "good" ending where no one gets hurt
 

Shadenuat

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in pnp both chaotic good and chaotic neutral are the worst when exercised by amateur players. I would kill every half elf sorcerer bard I see on sight.
neutral good and evil are usually same side of banality although evils at least more proactive.
lawfuls are not picked by amateur players because lawful character has to have at least SOME consistency in how they behave lol.
the amount of decent TN played I've seen is about 0%.
most of mine played were TN LE LN.
first time I had some joy of playing LN was Kingmaker btw. (in PST you just drift towards good by clicking on most completionist dialogue options eventually I think; but I really tried to be chaotic for my personal plane waifu Pentar, and tried evil but that means just selling most companions lol)
 
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Lacrymas

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Pathfinder: Wrath
Lawful neutral > everything else. Amateur players tend to treat them all the same, though. Last time, a guy started out as neutral good and I changed his alignment to chaotic evil before the session was over.
 

Grunker

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Lawful neutral > everything else. Amateur players tend to treat them all the same, though. Last time, a guy started out as neutral good and I changed his alignment to chaotic evil before the session was over.

never played with those players since i turned 25
 

Shadenuat

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lawfuls are not picked by amateur players because lawful character has to have at least SOME consistency in how they behave lol
A consistent pattern of behavior is not that hard. Isn't it?
not when such behavior at some point is not favourable for your character :shittydog: chaotic alignment is used as out of jail card for "fuck u did that?" by silly playerz.

I AM CHAOTIC BARD

IWs4hBy.jpg
 

Desiderius

Found your egg, Robinett, you sneaky bastard
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There's no joy in Denethor. You can appreciate Tolkien's depiction but for people to reach for the word enjoyment in that context is a mark of how far things have gone astray.
And what is this semantical sophistry supposed to accomplish? "Enjoyed" may not be the perfect word there, but it is close enough in the sense that I like the tragic character of Denethor more than some banal black-and-white depiction where there is not even a room for thought.

This is the hallmark of pure autism right here. Saying I enjoyed a character is interpreted as being wrong because there is no joy in the character itself. What a tool.

I may be autistic but as usual what's lacking here is your mental horsepower not my empathy.

Which is why you keep harping on it. As with Denethor finally finding one's superior need not be an evil.
 

Cryomancer

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LOL. Some times my awful English is funny.

Anyway, in 2E Dark Sun, some hindrances are too hard. High level Shadow Wizards in Defilers and Preservers: The Wizards of Athas get -4 penalty in all social checks and low level Shadow Wizards could die while attempting to prepare spells. Being a preserver in Athas is very hard, you need to disguise you spells as psionics since the population in Athas hates magic more than the people who enjoy playing as Dwarf fighters here in RPGCodex.

Source : Defilers and Preservers : The Wizards of Athas - page 62
anP3sYT.png

This type of danger while merely preparing spells is something which can't exist in a RPG who tries to appeal to a modern audience. Modern RPG fans hate flaws, hindrances, drawbacks...

I AM CHAOTIC BARD

Chaotic could be just a very individualistic guy, or a Barbarian who hates civilization and laws. Sadly many players play chaotic as retarded.
 
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Zed Duke of Banville

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Chaotic could be just a very individualistic guy, or a Barbarian who hates civilization and laws. Sadly many players play chaotic as retarded.
I attribute this largely to the muddled alignment definitions, starting with Gary Gygax's initial presentation of a two-axis five-alignment system, where law and chaos were presented as a mixture of concepts that didn't form a coherent whole. Each DM should define law and chaos more narrowly in a way suitable for the specific campaign setting, e.g. chaotic as nature versus lawful as (human) civilization.
 

Harthwain

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lawfuls are not picked by amateur players because lawful character has to have at least SOME consistency in how they behave lol.
I disagree - all characters need consistency and Lawful characters are arguably the easiest to be consistent, because the law provides a good anchoring point.

chaotic alignment is used as out of jail card for "fuck u did that?" by silly playerz. I AM CHAOTIC BARD
The character is still beholden to the other part of his alignment: Good/Neutral/Evil. The system isn't that complicated to be honest.

Sadly many players play chaotic as retarded.
Playing as retarded should be treated as not playing in accordance to the rules. Cyberpunk 2020 takes away your character once you become insane, because that's what insane means: you - the player - no longer have control over your character. Might was well turn that character into an NPC and roll dice whenever that character is supposed to make a decision.
 

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