FranticDistortion
Learned
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2020
- Messages
- 387
People who like it read news and go "cool", people who dislike it set up a camp and spend days saying how shit it is. Just a vocal minority thing.
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Baldur's Gate Baldur's Gate 3 Pre-Release Thread [EARLY ACCESS RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]
- Thread starter Belegarsson
- Start date
TemplarGR
Dumbfuck!
Turn based for RPGs is only for casuals and autists. It is about pseudo-tactics. It is pure marketing. You see, they believe they can fool people by doing turn based into thinking they are playing a Chess-like tactical game. I mean, after all, Chess is turn based, right? But it is wrong, turn based these days is only a valid approach for 4X games, and even 4X games don't really need it as Stellaris proves.
You see, you only need turn based if you need to be making hardcore deep decisions and real time is too short for that. In a game like Sid Meyer's Civilization VI there is a huge list of things to decide about between the turns, from workers to pops to techs to diplomacy to fighting etc etc. You can't have it in real time unless you do it like Paradox, with a lot of "days" (essentially small turns), proceeding at various speeds and pausable at any time.
For CRPGs, what are those "deep decisions"? All you are doing is picking targets and perhaps using skills/spells/items. Every character can do one action (in some a few more) and perhaps change his positioning per turn. That's about it. These things don't need deep thought, they could be done in pausable real time. You could even use scripting for some things to make real time even easier. These things, including scripting, were in the original BG, so it is not some kind of revelation, it is a decades long industry standard. But i suppose people who can't program AI because they suck at being software engineers, prefer turn based to mask their inferiority....
Turn based in CRPGs was a decline thing that was made mandatory by low hardware capabilities in 80s and early 90s. You see having multiple sprites on the screen, all doing complex attacks of a large variety at the same time, having decent animations, was something that wasn't really feasible on the hardware of the day due to lack of processing power and RAM. Even 2D animation was fucking costly, and that was without considering the extra stress of having to process the AI or pathfinding of so many actors in real time, alongside the animations of their attacks. Once video hardware acceleration with decent amounts of dedicated VRAM became a thing, and we reached the Pentium era, real time was made feasible, thus developers began designing real time games, because it was the incline thing to do, and we had the hardware to do it.
Games like POEII Deadfire proved that turn based is decline. They added a turn based mode yet no one uses it because it sucks and is very time consuming. Suddenly most spergs realized that all it does is prolong the fights, without really adding any strategy into it. Games that are purely turn based have to resort into imbalancing their games so as to make turn based worthwhile. You see, if you actually take your turns to think in games like DOS2, the game would be a cakewalk, so they decided to make it constantly unfair to the player to compensate. OOOOOOHHHHHH THE CHALLEEEEENGEEEEEEEE. Just throw your hours on this Earth in the trashbin by doing RPG fights that should have lasted 30 seconds into 10-30 minute deals..... Pure decline.
You see, you only need turn based if you need to be making hardcore deep decisions and real time is too short for that. In a game like Sid Meyer's Civilization VI there is a huge list of things to decide about between the turns, from workers to pops to techs to diplomacy to fighting etc etc. You can't have it in real time unless you do it like Paradox, with a lot of "days" (essentially small turns), proceeding at various speeds and pausable at any time.
For CRPGs, what are those "deep decisions"? All you are doing is picking targets and perhaps using skills/spells/items. Every character can do one action (in some a few more) and perhaps change his positioning per turn. That's about it. These things don't need deep thought, they could be done in pausable real time. You could even use scripting for some things to make real time even easier. These things, including scripting, were in the original BG, so it is not some kind of revelation, it is a decades long industry standard. But i suppose people who can't program AI because they suck at being software engineers, prefer turn based to mask their inferiority....
Turn based in CRPGs was a decline thing that was made mandatory by low hardware capabilities in 80s and early 90s. You see having multiple sprites on the screen, all doing complex attacks of a large variety at the same time, having decent animations, was something that wasn't really feasible on the hardware of the day due to lack of processing power and RAM. Even 2D animation was fucking costly, and that was without considering the extra stress of having to process the AI or pathfinding of so many actors in real time, alongside the animations of their attacks. Once video hardware acceleration with decent amounts of dedicated VRAM became a thing, and we reached the Pentium era, real time was made feasible, thus developers began designing real time games, because it was the incline thing to do, and we had the hardware to do it.
Games like POEII Deadfire proved that turn based is decline. They added a turn based mode yet no one uses it because it sucks and is very time consuming. Suddenly most spergs realized that all it does is prolong the fights, without really adding any strategy into it. Games that are purely turn based have to resort into imbalancing their games so as to make turn based worthwhile. You see, if you actually take your turns to think in games like DOS2, the game would be a cakewalk, so they decided to make it constantly unfair to the player to compensate. OOOOOOHHHHHH THE CHALLEEEEENGEEEEEEEE. Just throw your hours on this Earth in the trashbin by doing RPG fights that should have lasted 30 seconds into 10-30 minute deals..... Pure decline.
FranticDistortion
Learned
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2020
- Messages
- 387
So you want fights to last 30 seconds? I agree that's the limit for Bethesda's fans, but why would other devs base their design around people with extra chromosome?
Saravan
Savant
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2019
- Messages
- 926
Can't vote so I'll just say I agree, banning people from posting is lame even if Ontopoly treats this thread as his personal diary for unresolved childhood trauma.
A TemplarGR post.
Cryomancer
Arcane
One thing is to have a turn based combat in a game where a single fireball can end a low level kobold encounter and a single wail of the banshee can end a high level encounter. Other thing is to have turn based in a game like PoE2. In a game where enemies can soak literally 2 fireballs and 20 Arquebus shots, turn based just doesn't work.
They increased the game lethality on turn based but still extremely slow. I agree with you that most MODERN turn based games are slow. But this doesn't means that TB can't work
If was up to me, yes. He was funny when he roleplay as Swen. In fact he is arrogant as IRL Swen.
Depends the fight. Trash mobs should be quick. The final battle, should take something like 10 minutes. Compare the lenght of final fights of BG1 with DOS2
Page 666 is the perfect place to have them back.
I think they do this to be more forgiving. That's why I keep repeating that turn based doesn't necessearliy equal "inlcline". With enough tinkering with the ruleset, turnbased can feel pretty dumbed down, and D:OS2 (D:OS also, but more in the lategame) is the example of this.
Cryomancer
Arcane
Yep. DOS2 has problems with Zimbabwe style number inflation, dumb armor mechanics, cooldowns, only one summon limit, slow animations(...) BUT BG3 doesn't seem to have BS like
Look how stats are for the same creature on 5e
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2019
- Messages
- 1,252
i’d like such people being treated by professionals in specialized facilities.
onemananadhisdroid
Augur
By the way: Was this that special moment in history when WotC decided to make Beamdog cry get Larian involved in all of this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj9cPK2_qKU
Swen (the real one) ain't arrogant. Like any entrepreneur, he's just confident (and better should be -- also for his employees' sake).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj9cPK2_qKU
Swen (the real one) ain't arrogant. Like any entrepreneur, he's just confident (and better should be -- also for his employees' sake).
Yep. DOS2 has problems with Zimbabwe style number inflation, dumb armor mechanics, cooldowns, only one summon limit, slow animations(...) BUT BG3 doesn't seem to have BS like
Look how stats are for the same creature on 5e
Totally agree, this is the strongest being in the DND world, on the same level as an avatar of Tiamat, a literal body of a god.
It has 700 hit point and hits for 60 damage at most with a single hit. I think my two hander from a level 1 character in Divinity Original sin had higher numbers.
With its damage per turn of maybe 150 it would take 70 turns to even get through the Kraken armor. Numbers are soothingly nonbloated in DnD since they are meant to be rolled with real dice.
Saravan
Savant
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2019
- Messages
- 926
Lacrymas
Arcane
- Joined
- Sep 23, 2015
- Messages
- 18,951
It's not. Larloch, Laeral Silverhand, Elminster are all more powerful than a Terrasque. There are also far more powerful beings than them too. If I remember correctly, a Hecatoncheires is the strongest monster in terms of CR, I don't know if it exists in 5E though.
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2020
- Messages
- 1,256
Every character you mentioned is an epic spellcaster. While yes, they could easily take the Tarrasque on, but you're kinda missing the point here. And I doubt even them would be able to kill that Kraken with those numbers.
Cryomancer
Arcane
Terrasque is the strongest non epic monster.
This epic spellcasters are probably in other planes... And honestly, epic campaign in material plane RARELY works...
None of those have gotten rules in 5e yet. Should have specified this is 5e, older editions go a lot higher with the power level.
Tarrasque is CR 30, the absolute maximum for 5e currently.
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- Messages
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Every single spellcaster Lacrymas mentioned resides in the Forgotten Realms. Hell, you meet Elminster in BG1. And he didn't even mention all of them, it's a pretty high-powered setting when it wants to be.
TemplarGR
Dumbfuck!
And what do you propose, join them?
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