Best thread ever.

[7th Circle]

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=203269

...
I can GUARANTEE that Oblivion will blow your mind the first time you see it running and actually PLAY the final game, and it will continue to do so for many months and even years afterwards.
...

And what's wrong with that?

If you read the whole post,you will see he is actually saying that the moment anyone who has criticised Oblivion plays it, he "guarantees" that they will be gobsmacked by its brilliance for years and months and drop all their criticism.

Given the nature of humanity, that wouldn't even be the case for the Second Coming...

 

[Imbecile]

I quite like this one:

mayb theyre dumbing the graphics down in the pics so that when we get the game it will look way better

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=205144

Out of curiosity, how do you "dumb down" the graphics?

 

[yipsl]

Also be sure to check out this picture somebody came up with.

http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/3190/picard8yq.jpg

Well, if all the games morphed into one generic mess, that's about what we'd get; bad modding done professionally for a buck.

Captain Picard with a light sabre in Morrowind? Oy, enough already! I do remember a thread awhile back where someone wanted the Emperor to say "Make it so" as his dying words. I'd rather he say something like "Gaack, it was safer playing King Richard of Gladstone" as his dying words.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/lands ... erId,6916/

Regarding official mods, the only one I'd pay for is Holidays and that should have been in the game from the beginning. After all, it's one thing for the dour Dunmer to not follow the holidays found in Arena and Daggerfall, but why leave them out except as a cynical way of meeting the Xboxer's needs so there's no shortage of "official" downloadable content.

They should call them shorts instead of mods. So the console gamers would be buying their Xboxer shorts to be fully covered in all necessary features like horse armor in a game without mounted combat.

I don't know, it could get frustrating. You stop training for a few days and oops you suck. It would be nice if the decay would be caused by raising other skills, and the worse the skill the more decay in it. This way you would shape your class during the entire game. Something like:
.

I use the Dodge mod in Morrowind for Unarmoured. If I trained in any armor past a certain point, it hampers my dodge and my armor rating goes down, so it's not worth it to train in armor.

Since I doubt that Acrobatics makes up for no Unarmoured, I expect to see a mod out to fix it. I'd hate to have to go back to wearing armor like I did in Arena and Daggerfall. I really enjoyed just wearing the silly exquisite clothes a custom class Juggling Mage (think Acrobat/Mage) would wear instead of armor.

 

[Vault Dweller]

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=211404

With the explicit directions given by the NPCs, anyone who couldn't find Caius should probably stick to fighting games or shooters. Part of the fun of a good RPG is deductive reasoning from clues given to you by the game itself. If that's not your thing, I'm going to suggest that RPGs aren't your thing.

short-sighted comment, like others here.

look at it from a developer's perspective. they don't just want RPG players to buy their games. they want people to buy their games. if they can make it easy enough where someone not geared toward typical RPGs can still get into the game, then they've done well. its a win-win for them. hardcore rpgers complain on these boards about what has been 'dumbed-down' in oblivion, but they are still going to get the game on release day despite their empty threats. because the games still has too many redeeming qualities.

 

[yipsl]

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=211404

With the explicit directions given by the NPCs, anyone who couldn't find Caius should probably stick to fighting games or shooters. Part of the fun of a good RPG is deductive reasoning from clues given to you by the game itself. If that's not your thing, I'm going to suggest that RPGs aren't your thing.

short-sighted comment, like others here.

look at it from a developer's perspective. they don't just want RPG players to buy their games. they want people to buy their games. if they can make it easy enough where someone not geared toward typical RPGs can still get into the game, then they've done well. its a win-win for them. hardcore rpgers complain on these boards about what has been 'dumbed-down' in oblivion, but they are still going to get the game on release day despite their empty threats. because the games still has too many redeeming qualities.

Genres exist for a reason. RPGs are for people who play RPGs. If someone who prefers a FPS buys an RPG, they should learn how to roleplay and how to enjoy the features found in an RPG. I own only one FPS. I've tried a few demos, but the only one I bought was Far Cry used.

I do not insist Far Cry be an RPG. I approach it as a shooter. I might very well try the Call of Duty games, but I won't insist they be RPGs. I do not insist that shooter fans dumb down the FPS conventions to a watered down mainstream level where all game genres flow into one another because the marketing departments think every gamer is a dumb kid with no preferences beyond pretty graphics.

As for empty threats, i was going to get three copies of Oblivion like I have three copies of Morrowind and two of Daggerfall. I may just buy one copy for redwoodtreesprite's modding use and not play the game myself until enough mods come out that fix problems created by the mainstreaming of the game, if they're at all fixable.



I want intelligent games of all genres. That way, I can have my RPGs and a FPS fan can have their game. A strategy fan can have their genre and an adventure gamer can enjoy pure adventure conventions.

 

[Data4]

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=211404

With the explicit directions given by the NPCs, anyone who couldn't find Caius should probably stick to fighting games or shooters. Part of the fun of a good RPG is deductive reasoning from clues given to you by the game itself. If that's not your thing, I'm going to suggest that RPGs aren't your thing.

short-sighted comment, like others here.

look at it from a developer's perspective. they don't just want RPG players to buy their games. they want people to buy their games. if they can make it easy enough where someone not geared toward typical RPGs can still get into the game, then they've done well. its a win-win for them. hardcore rpgers complain on these boards about what has been 'dumbed-down' in oblivion, but they are still going to get the game on release day despite their empty threats. because the games still has too many redeeming qualities.

Wow. One of my first posts at TES in months, and the moronic response I recieved gets a mention here. I'm flattered. I bailed on the thread. I felt my IQ dipping below "Gump" the more I got pissed at the idiots.

-D4

**Edit: But like most anything else I'm involved with, I couldn't leave well enough alone.

 

[Vault Dweller]

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... 404&st=100

I'd like to state: I'm a console gamer. I'm *NOT* a console RPGer. I despise the letters "FF" with every shard of my soul. Morrowind was, by far, the best RPG on the xbox. The Zelda games are fun. Zelda and KOTOR are a great definition of what a "console RPG" is. And for those meddleheads who claim that the line between what is a good game type for the console and what is a good game type for the PC... you're idiots. I'll take you on, head-to-head, in any FPS you desire. (Exactly - VD) My on my PC and you on your console, assuming you have "auto-aim" and all the other crutches off. You will die. Same goes with me on my console and you on your PC with racing, fighting, or sports games. Don't come to my PC with your copy of Madden 06.

That being said... TES is a pure PC RPG. Live with it. They're adding the compass to aid with the Radiant AI. Explain what gives you dunderheads the right to pass judgement on a game that not only have you not seen, but that has nothing in history even remotely comparable in scope to it?!?!?! Seriously... get off your pedastals and put a little faith in Bethesda. Slap yourselves while you're at it too.

There's plenty that I'm "worried" about, but nothing that's angered me. Why? Cuz I know Bethesda is a good company dedicated to making the best possible games they can and they RESPOND and APPRECIATE their fanbase. You guys really seem to have no clue what it's like to be taken for granted by a game developer. Slap yourselves again, sheesh!

I honestly think that 'giving up' spears and levitation and darts is worth getting a much larger landscape, much perdier graphics, over 1000 fully-voiced NPCs that have actual AI that's far above anything ever done before...

A typical consoler. Who needs gameplay when you can look at pretty pictures? Huh? What? A duel! Pick any FPS and prepare to DIE because my twitch reflexes are teh rox0rz!!!!

 

[Proweler]

A typical consoler. Who needs gameplay when you can look at pretty pictures? Huh? What? A duel! Pick any FPS and prepare to DIE because my twitch reflexes are teh rox0rz!!!!

Actually he just said he doesn't give a fuck about your archaic opinion of RPG's and wants a good game.

 

[Micmu]

Actually he just said he doesn't give a fuck about your archaic opinion of RPG's and wants a good game.

Archaic? :shock:

 

[Vault Dweller]

Correction:

a) he wants a good FPS because that's what he's good at
b) he thinks that visuals (another FPS trait) are more important than gameplay elements, which doesn't fit into most people's definition of a good game.

 

[Micmu]

 

[Proweler]

Correction:

a) he wants a good FPS because that's what he's good at
b) he thinks that visuals (another FPS trait) are more important than gameplay elements, which doesn't fit into most people's definition of a good game.

Correction:

a) he wants to take you head-to-head in a good FPS because that's what he's good at
b) he thinks that visuals and a more imersive world is more important than gameplay gimmicks, which does fit into most people's definition of a good game.

 

[HardCode]

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[Micmu]

b) he thinks that visuals and a more imersive world is more important than gameplay gimmicks, which does fit into most people's definition of a good game.

Care to explain what's a "gameplay gimmick" and what's the difference between achaic and "newage" definition of a CRPG?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Correction:

a) he wants a good FPS because that's what he's good at
b) he thinks that visuals (another FPS trait) are more important than gameplay elements, which doesn't fit into most people's definition of a good game.

Correction:

a) he wants to take you head-to-head in a good FPS because that's what he's good at

And how is it relevant to the discussion of RPGs, TES games, and Oblivion in particular? If anything, it proves that he, as a consoler, can play only twitchy games, and incapable of understanding deeper genres. He's also an example of that audience for whom the combat has been redesigned.

b) he thinks that visuals and a more imersive world is more important than gameplay gimmicks, which does fit into most people's definition of a good game.

I've already said that he's a moron. No need to put it in other words.

Options and fucking alternative ways to play a game are way more fucking important than pretty pictures and fucking bloom. In DF you could play as you want: following a path, climbing walls, levitating over. THAT's what get you immersed. Try playing DF now, the graphics are crappy by modern's standards, but you would stop noticing that in 10 minutes and get immersed in tons of stuff you can do in the game - the best immersion ever. Same goes for Darklands.

In MW, you couldn't climb. In OB, you couldn't climb or levitate or even use teleport as YOU see fit (mark & recall). But the graphics are awesome!!! Great trade-off!!!

 

[Proweler]

There is more to this game then pretty pictures, Patrick Steward and bloom.

With the removal of levitation you have to spend time and thought into getting somewhere. You have to pay attention the map and the landscape. You can't get into a city easily either. You have to put some thought in avoiding the guards.

With no teleportation at will you don't have an easy escape anymore. You have to think about getting out of a fight before you get in one. Not to mention that the NPC's now actually can put up a chase.

The RAI gives you more ways to avoid combat by pay attention to what the NPC's do. If people all go to mass on Sundays it's whole lot easier to rob a town blind. Just got to keep in mind which NPC's don't go to mass?

Magic is now more then just hurling a blob of pixels at your target. You can opt to send a fireball down the hall and nock some goblins over or you can chose to cast a frost ball on the ground before you. All the goblins in that area will take damage while trying to get to you. Doing that required some thought.

So really, VD, it appears to me that you are hanging on to memories of the past.

You want a thoughtless way out of a fight, you want a thoughtless way to get around geographical obstacles, you want thoughtless NPC's that stand at the same spot all day and you just want to shoot fireballs at targets with no thought required.

I can imagine why some people want to give you the digital equivalent of punch in the face.

 

[Dreagon]

There is more to this game then pretty pictures, Patrick Steward and bloom.

With the removal of levitation you have to spend time and thought into getting somewhere. You have to pay attention the map and the landscape. You can't get into a city easily either. You have to put some thought in avoiding the guards.

With no teleportation at will you don't have an easy escape anymore. You have to think about getting out of a fight before you get in one. Not to mention that the NPC's now actually can put up a chase.

The RAI gives you more ways to avoid combat by pay attention to what the NPC's do. If people all go to mass on Sundays it's whole lot easier to rob a town blind. Just got to keep in mind which NPC's don't go to mass?

Magic is now more then just hurling a blob of pixels at your target. You can opt to send a fireball down the hall and nock some goblins over or you can chose to cast a frost ball on the ground before you. All the goblins in that area will take damage while trying to get to you. Doing that required some thought.

So really, VD, it appears to me that you are hanging on to memories of the past.

You want a thoughtless way out of a fight, you want a thoughtless way to get around geographical obstacles, you want thoughtless NPC's that stand at the same spot all day and you just want to shoot fireballs at targets with no thought required.

I can imagine why some people want to give you the digital equivalent of punch in the face.

Hey, they could really make it a thinking mans game and remove weapons alltogether. Then it would take some REAL thought to work through that dungeon instead of just hacking through them like your average retard.

Seriously, they removed levitate because their shiny new graphics forced them to compromise and put their cities into indoor cells. That made levitate kinda awkward and hard to implement, so they just punted.

 

[MINIGUNWIELDER]

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=211404&st=100

I'd like to state: I'm a console gamer. I'm *NOT* a console RPGer. I despise the letters "FF" with every shard of my soul. Morrowind was, by far, the best RPG on the xbox. The Zelda games are fun. Zelda and KOTOR are a great definition of what a "console RPG" is. And for those meddleheads who claim that the line between what is a good game type for the console and what is a good game type for the PC... you're idiots. I'll take you on, head-to-head, in any FPS you desire. (Exactly - VD) My on my PC and you on your console, assuming you have "auto-aim" and all the other crutches off. You will die. Same goes with me on my console and you on your PC with racing, fighting, or sports games. Don't come to my PC with your copy of Madden 06.

That being said... TES is a pure PC RPG. Live with it. They're adding the compass to aid with the Radiant AI. Explain what gives you dunderheads the right to pass judgement on a game that not only have you not seen, but that has nothing in history even remotely comparable in scope to it?!?!?! Seriously... get off your pedastals and put a little faith in Bethesda. Slap yourselves while you're at it too.

There's plenty that I'm "worried" about, but nothing that's angered me. Why? Cuz I know Bethesda is a good company dedicated to making the best possible games they can and they RESPOND and APPRECIATE(yeah right) their fanbase. You guys really seem to have no clue what it's like to be taken for granted by a game developer. Slap yourselves again, sheesh!

I honestly think that 'giving up' spears and levitation and darts is worth getting a much larger landscape, much perdier graphics, over 1000 fully-voiced NPCs that have actual AI that's far above anything ever done before...

A typical consoler. Who needs gameplay when you can look at pretty pictures? Huh? What? A duel! Pick any FPS and prepare to DIE because my twitch reflexes are teh rox0rz!!!!

i say that we take 10 people from the codex who are good at fpses and take them on in an fps of our choosing

we vote on what fps team codex plays

i nominate

tribes(latest version or 2):requires some thought (and my brother owns a copy of tribes 2)

call of duty(is the french resistance playabke? if so i wanna be one of them)we will be russian

 

[Calis]

We should really arrange for a Codex mindless FPS free-for-all at some point. Bring on the bickering about which game to choose! My vote's on Half Life (1) DM. :D
I can probably provide hosting on a fat 100 mbit pipe as well.

 

[Proweler]

Hey, they could really make it a thinking mans game and remove weapons alltogether. Then it would take some REAL thought to work through that dungeon instead of just hacking through them like your average retard.

Seriously, they removed levitate because their shiny new graphics forced them to compromise and put their cities into indoor cells. That made levitate kinda awkward and hard to implement, so they just punted.

Wow, first time I didn't have to convince somebody of that.

They did the same to Vivec in Morrowind. It was supposed to be open with all buildings on the outside. That just killed the frame rate, not because of the shiny graphics (Morrowind) but because of the sheer number of objects. Hence I don't think it's all the graphical effects that are to blame, just the sheer size of the cities.
As mentioned before by MSFD smaller cities are still open so it's not the graphics that matter, just the size of the cities. IMO big cities that actually feel like they are big are better then small ones that pretend to be big.

The point is mood. Without levitation you still have to think more while playing and Bethesda isn't taking out features on purpose.

I'm supriced that nobody argued over the fact that cutting levitation also removes alot of possibilitys for creative thinking. It defenitly adds another dimension to the game. Perhaps food for a more fundamental discusion on what makes a game "inteligent".

Happy New Year btw.

 

[Vault Dweller]

There is more to this game then pretty pictures, Patrick Steward and bloom.

I want to believe that, but faith is all I have at the moment. A few months before the release there is no evidence supporting your statement. Something to think about.

With the removal of levitation you have to spend time and thought into getting somewhere. You have to pay attention the map and the landscape. You can't get into a city easily either. You have to put some thought in avoiding the guards.

Those issues were easy to fix - put some archers/mages on walls and towers, add accuracy penalty to attacking while levitating, and that's it. As for the rest of your comment, without climbing and levitating, the game has become much more linear since now there is only one correct path, only one way, etc.

With no teleportation at will you don't have an easy escape anymore. You have to think about getting out of a fight before you get in one. Not to mention that the NPC's now actually can put up a chase.

People will still get into fights - that's the nature of TES gameplay. Only now instead of teleporting away, you will die and reload. Yay! Same goes for chasing, to escape you run away which is what teleporting is all about - a more elegant way to escape. Beth could have added expensive spells that block teleporting in certain key areas which would have been a nice surprise for players who are used to rely on it, or freezing spells, which were already in, if I'm not mistaken, but instead they removed it completely. Lame.

The RAI gives you more ways to avoid combat by pay attention to what the NPC's do. If people all go to mass on Sundays it's whole lot easier to rob a town blind. Just got to keep in mind which NPC's don't go to mass?

So? In DF you could rob stores at night. Simple as that and without all that RAI hype.

Magic is now more then just hurling a blob of pixels at your target. You can opt to send a fireball down the hall and nock some goblins over or you can chose to cast a frost ball on the ground before you. All the goblins in that area will take damage while trying to get to you. Doing that required some thought.

I have my reasons to doubt that.

So really, VD, it appears to me that you are hanging on to memories of the past.

If you are saying that I'm fond of old games that had superior design that I have yet to see 10-15 years later (DF, Darklands, XCom, TIE Fighter, MOO, etc), then you are correct.

You want a thoughtless way out of a fight, you want a thoughtless way to get around geographical obstacles, you want thoughtless NPC's that stand at the same spot all day and you just want to shoot fireballs at targets with no thought required.

I want options. I want to be able to walk through the gate, climb the wall, or levitate over it. I expect each way to be challenging, and I expect to see defenses against each way where reasonable (levitating to the top of the mountain should require higher skill then levitating over a wall of a castle, but the castle should have guards and mages ready to shoot intruders down, requiring some planning and some tactics). Etc.

I can imagine why some people want to give you the digital equivalent of punch in the face.

*rolls eyes*

 

[MINIGUNWIELDER]

b) he thinks that visuals and a more imersive world is more important than gameplay gimmicks, which does fit into most people's definition of a good game.

Care to explain what's a "gameplay gimmick" and what's the difference between achaic and "newage" definition of a CRPG?

how they
"redefined" rpgs is just as evil as how they "reinvented" alternative(non commercial indy music that is actually made as art and not as "something the marketing department wants" examples:grateful dead and others) music

into A17eRn471VE(ie souless death metal that makes even me shudder)

 

[Proweler]

I want to believe that, but faith is all I have at the moment. A few months before the release there is no evidence supporting your statement. Something to think about.

Ever tried putting gameplay on a screenshot?

Anyway I hear that complaints from Morrowind are beeing adressed in a goodway. It's a pity that stuff is lost but I think the price paid was minor
Except for the Nine Divines that is. I still dunno why they are out. Although I assume that they didn't have enhough priority - they actually got in MW because there was more time - or their time got absorbed by the improvement of vampires - wich sucked in Morrowind.

As for the rest of your comment, without climbing and levitating, the game has become much more linear since now there is only one correct path, only one way, etc.

How many ways are there to get to Balmora from Seyda Neen? Barring the detours and fast travel you could walk to Balmora in five ways. If you levitated there was only one, a straight line.

People will still get into fights - that's the nature of TES gameplay. Only now instead of teleporting away, you will die and reload. Yay!

Assuming you save often that is a good argument against balance reasons for removal. Assuming Bethesda isn't incompetent there probebly is a technical reasons instead.
I also heard a good rumour about a Divine intervention still beeing in.

In general I'm just commenting on the "dumbing down because of the mony" howls. I don't like the removal of features either but I can understand that several features of a game are in conflicting and that a good solution might just be to costly.
Anyway, I'm sure we can talk about the game again once we played it. Perhaps I manage to get a copy of Daggerfall in the meantime so we can compair Oblivion to all TES games.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I want to believe that, but faith is all I have at the moment. A few months before the release there is no evidence supporting your statement. Something to think about.

Ever tried putting gameplay on a screenshot?

Sure. You can't show "kinetic" combat on a screenshot, but you can show anything else.

Anyway I hear that complaints from Morrowind are beeing adressed in a goodway.

"Hearing" at this point isn't good enough.

How many ways are there to get to Balmora from Seyda Neen?

And how important are those ways to gameplay? Not important at all. Doesn't define your character either. Being able to climb a wall unseen instead of, say, fighting your way through the front gate is important and define your character. Same goes for levitation.

Assuming you save often that is a good argument against balance reasons for removal.

Why? How does being able to teleport away ruin the balance? What about running away? Let's remove running too.

Assuming Bethesda isn't incompetent there probebly is a technical reasons instead. I also heard a good rumour about a Divine intervention still beeing in.

So, if Divine Intervention is in, why Mark & Recall aren't? Divine Intervention scrolls were much bigger exploits, than M&R ever were.

I don't like the removal of features either but I can understand that several features of a game are in conflicting and that a good solution might just be to costly.

Can you? Or are you just repeating what you've been told, desperately trying to believe that anything Bethesda does is for a good reason?

Anyway, I'm sure we can talk about the game again once we played it. Perhaps I manage to get a copy of Daggerfall in the meantime so we can compair Oblivion to all TES games.

You haven't played DF? So, stop wasting your time talking about things you can't fully understand because you lack the experience, and go get it.

 

[MINIGUNWIELDER]

ote="Proweler"]

I want to believe that, but faith is all I have at the moment. A few months before the release there is no evidence supporting your statement. Something to think about.

Ever tried putting gameplay on a screenshot?

Anyway I hear that complaints from Morrowind are beeing adressed in a goodway. It's a pity that stuff is lost but I think the price paid was minor
Except for the Nine Divines that is. I still dunno why they are out. Although I assume that they didn't have enhough priority - they actually got in MW because there was more time - or their time got absorbed by the improvement of vampires - wich sucked in Morrowind.

yes vamps sucked...BUT TEH FANS CAN FIX EVRYTHNAG HTE DVS ARE NTO GODO ATT DOING

As for the rest of your comment, without climbing and levitating, the game has become much more linear since now there is only one correct path, only one way, etc.

How many ways are there to get to Balmora from Seyda Neen? Barring the detours and fast travel you could walk to Balmora in five ways. If you levitated there was only one, a straight line.

barring detours there is only one path to walk on to balmora
also "way" indicates METHOD more often than not in english speech

People will still get into fights - that's the nature of TES gameplay. Only now instead of teleporting away, you will die and reload. Yay!

Assuming you save often that is a good argument against balance reasons for removal. Assuming Bethesda isn't incompetent there probebly is a technical reasons instead.
I also heard a good rumour about a Divine intervention still beeing in.

In general I'm just commenting on the "dumbing down because of the mony" howls. I don't like the removal of features either but I can understand that several features of a game are in conflicting and that a good solution might just be to costly.
Anyway, I'm sure we can talk about the game again once we played it. Perhaps I manage to get a copy of Daggerfall in the meantime so we can compair Oblivion to all TES games.

-all specialization is removed
-spears go bye-bye
-no longer do you need to read!
-darts go bye-bue
-X-bows are removed
-levitation is removed
-all towns become interior cells because of radiant AI and shiny graphics(i mean geez they could have put mw graphics and we would be happy with them
also it REQUIRES LESS PROCESSING TO HAVE THEM JUST DO EVERYTHING THEY SAID RAI COULD DO AS A SEMI-SCRIPTED EVENT)