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Bioshock Infinite - the $200 million 6 hour literally on rails interactive movie with guns thread

Comrade Goby

Magister
Joined
Apr 29, 2011
Messages
1,236
Project: Eternity
On Objectivism:

Going by what I've read in Atlas Shrugged, my guess is that objectivism is based on the idea that "if you believe in something hard enough it becomes objective truth". If true than 1) is this not a rip-off of whatever Lyric Suite talks about (minus the religious angle):troll: and 2) what point is there in approaching it

On Racism in 1920:

Obviously society was more racist in the past, everyone knows that. But the misconception in this game (and media in general) is that racism was the defining trait of those times. Literature written around that time like Great Gatsby and Brave New World made mention of racism but focused on something far more important: the avant of consumerism. Mankind's new-found love of material goods brought about by the roaring twenties was by far the most important aspect of society at that time. Stuff like disillusionment with traditional values following the massacre of WW1 would have been a more worthy subject to touch on than petty, cartoony racism demonstrated in this game. So, the fact that the writer of this game could think of nothing more profound to say about the era than this -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mw-k_lI-SU -- is pretty fucking pathetic. Well, actually no, stupid shit like that is made all of the time. The pathetic part is that people actually PRAISE it for it's "meaningful message":decline:

THat's the liberal bs culture of today though

You have to be progressive otherwise you're an evil racist

There is no other ground
 

Mraston

Learned
Joined
Jan 23, 2013
Messages
254
Just finished it. What a fucking piece of crap. Any one ever who said something about it having an amazing ending can go hang themselves.

A final fight that is essentially a tower defence map followed by a 20 minute long non-nonsensical treatise on alternate realities. The worse part was that Bioshock's Rapture was bizarrely included in the closing segments just so I could feel bad about actually liking THAT game.
 

Heresiarch

Prophet
Joined
Mar 8, 2008
Messages
1,451
Dunno if this has been posted or not, but is this incline, decline, or just simple cash-in?

BioShock Infinite: The Siege of Columbia board game, based on the critically acclaimed BioShock Infinite video game, allows players to explore the world of BioShock Infinite--the atmosphere, the characters, the city of Columbia itself, and even contours of the game's plot--from a tantalizing new perspective as the leaders of the Founders and Vox Populi factions


http://www.plaidhatgames.com/games/bioshock-infinite-the-siege-of-columbia
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,715
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Codex+ Now Streaming!
Dunno if this has been posted or not, but is this incline, decline, or just simple cash-in?

BioShock Infinite: The Siege of Columbia board game, based on the critically acclaimed BioShock Infinite video game, allows players to explore the world of BioShock Infinite--the atmosphere, the characters, the city of Columbia itself, and even contours of the game's plot--from a tantalizing new perspective as the leaders of the Founders and Vox Populi factions

http://www.plaidhatgames.com/games/bioshock-infinite-the-siege-of-columbia
From the preliminary study of the rulebook I'd say it's the same as the game itself - very polished, nice production value but very stale area control mechanic with zero inovation.

The reviews will be raving.
 

Declinator

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
542
I know it ,but Bioshock 1 and System Shock 2 didn't tried to say anything or discuss any social issue.
I can't think of a single game that was made better by having a message or discussing social issues.

Come to think of it, I can't think of a single piece of fiction in any form that was made better by having a message or discussing social issues.

In fact, words such as "social issues", "theme", "message" are the kind that piss me off in the context of fiction. I can see how having a unifying theme can help enhance cohesiveness and purity but beyond that?

None of my favorite games or movies are tainted by messages or at least they aren't part/a large part of what made them so good. It's possible that this simply makes me a more superficial or primal
gamer but it is what it is.

I would love to hear about the messages some prominent games (supposedly) have. Or why having these "messages" is good in the first place as I've never understood that.
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
I know it ,but Bioshock 1 and System Shock 2 didn't tried to say anything or discuss any social issue.
I can't think of a single game that was made better by having a message or discussing social issues.

Come to think of it, I can't think of a single piece of fiction in any form that was made better by having a message or discussing social issues.

In fact, words such as "social issues", "theme", "message" are the kind that piss me off in the context of fiction. I can see how having a unifying theme can help enhance cohesiveness and purity but beyond that?

None of my favorite games or movies are tainted by messages or at least they aren't part/a large part of what made them so good. It's possible that this simply makes me a more superficial or primal
gamer but it is what it is.

I would love to hear about the messages some prominent games (supposedly) have. Or why having these "messages" is good in the first place as I've never understood that.
If you like, drop a few title samples and I'll gladly ruin them for you for all time by revealing the messages of the given works.
 

Tommy Wiseau

Arcane
Joined
Apr 7, 2012
Messages
9,424
Seriously? That's so counter-culture it almost takes a shot at culture as a whole. Messages, themes provide subtext and meaning.
 

Declinator

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
542
I know it ,but Bioshock 1 and System Shock 2 didn't tried to say anything or discuss any social issue.
I can't think of a single game that was made better by having a message or discussing social issues.

Come to think of it, I can't think of a single piece of fiction in any form that was made better by having a message or discussing social issues.

In fact, words such as "social issues", "theme", "message" are the kind that piss me off in the context of fiction. I can see how having a unifying theme can help enhance cohesiveness and purity but beyond that?

None of my favorite games or movies are tainted by messages or at least they aren't part/a large part of what made them so good. It's possible that this simply makes me a more superficial or primal
gamer but it is what it is.

I would love to hear about the messages some prominent games (supposedly) have. Or why having these "messages" is good in the first place as I've never understood that.
If you like, drop a few title samples and I'll gladly ruin them for you for all time by revealing the messages of the given works.

Okay, how about Fallout? Or SS2 because DeepOcean mentioned that it didn't try to say anything and yet it's one my favorites. Torment would probably be easier.

Or if you wanted movie titles then how about Usual Suspects, Collateral, 12 Angry Men, or maybe the Swedish movie Ondskan (Evil) but that one is probably too obscure.

Seriously? That's so counter-culture it almost takes a shot at culture as a whole. Messages, themes provide subtext and meaning.

And what do subtext and "meaning" provide?
 

Tommy Wiseau

Arcane
Joined
Apr 7, 2012
Messages
9,424
I know it ,but Bioshock 1 and System Shock 2 didn't tried to say anything or discuss any social issue.
I can't think of a single game that was made better by having a message or discussing social issues.

Come to think of it, I can't think of a single piece of fiction in any form that was made better by having a message or discussing social issues.

In fact, words such as "social issues", "theme", "message" are the kind that piss me off in the context of fiction. I can see how having a unifying theme can help enhance cohesiveness and purity but beyond that?

None of my favorite games or movies are tainted by messages or at least they aren't part/a large part of what made them so good. It's possible that this simply makes me a more superficial or primal
gamer but it is what it is.

I would love to hear about the messages some prominent games (supposedly) have. Or why having these "messages" is good in the first place as I've never understood that.
If you like, drop a few title samples and I'll gladly ruin them for you for all time by revealing the messages of the given works.

Super Mario World. :troll:
 

Tommy Wiseau

Arcane
Joined
Apr 7, 2012
Messages
9,424
I know it ,but Bioshock 1 and System Shock 2 didn't tried to say anything or discuss any social issue.
I can't think of a single game that was made better by having a message or discussing social issues.

Come to think of it, I can't think of a single piece of fiction in any form that was made better by having a message or discussing social issues.

In fact, words such as "social issues", "theme", "message" are the kind that piss me off in the context of fiction. I can see how having a unifying theme can help enhance cohesiveness and purity but beyond that?

None of my favorite games or movies are tainted by messages or at least they aren't part/a large part of what made them so good. It's possible that this simply makes me a more superficial or primal
gamer but it is what it is.

I would love to hear about the messages some prominent games (supposedly) have. Or why having these "messages" is good in the first place as I've never understood that.
If you like, drop a few title samples and I'll gladly ruin them for you for all time by revealing the messages of the given works.

Okay, how about Fallout? Or SS2 because DeepOcean mentioned that it didn't try to say anything and yet it's one my favorites. Torment would probably be easier.

Or if you wanted movie titles then how about Usual Suspects, Collateral, 12 Angry Men, or maybe the Swedish movie Ondskan (Evil) but that one is probably too obscure.

Seriously? That's so counter-culture it almost takes a shot at culture as a whole. Messages, themes provide subtext and meaning.

And what do subtext and "meaning" provide?

Narrative cohesion, plot and character development, motivations, etc. Most works tackle a particular subject matter where most of the conflict is derived from.

Fallout's theme is war, duh. It also has some rather obvious references to religion, such as Hinduism (Karma, Brahmin, Dharma), which provide some subtext.
 

Declinator

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
542
And what do subtext and "meaning" provide?

Narrative cohesion, plot and character development, motivations, etc. Most works tackle a particular subject matter where most of the conflict is derived from.

Fallout's theme is war, duh. It also has some rather obvious references to religion, such as Hinduism (Karma, Brahmin, Dharma), which provide some subtext.

I did mention that " I can see how having a unifying theme can help enhance cohesiveness" and yes plot, character development, and motivations too. These are indirect benefits and it is mostly invisible to the audience that the theme was there to help. However many critic-types seem to like to elevate theme, messages etc. to the highest pedestal where they are the biggest factor in making a film great. That I cannot understand so I assumed that some people get very direct benefits from themes and such.
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
Super Mario World. :troll:
Blatant propaganda of hard hats for evil minions.
Cautionary and sad tale of class division between the ruling class and the proletariat.
Commentary on women in power via the flaccidity of Princess Peach's rule and its inability to prevent the sort of shit that a plumber has to deal with.

Okay, how about Fallout? Or SS2 because DeepOcean mentioned that it didn't try to say anything and yet it's one my favorites. Torment would probably be easier.

Or if you wanted movie titles then how about Usual Suspects, Collateral, 12 Angry Men, or maybe the Swedish movie Ondskan (Evil) but that one is probably too obscure.

A-ha, I think I see what you mean now, by the collection of things you mention. I can provide some of the message range that these provide, but instead I'll say this (unless you want, then I'll post what I was writing until this thought struck me): the works you mention don't have a BLATANT MESSAGE THAT TRIES TO BE HAMMERED INTO THE AUDIENCE'S SKULL. These still do carry messages and themes, but said items are actually made by competent writers/filmmakers and they lead the audience subtly to arrive at certain conclusions or pick up certain messages and do with them as they like instead.

For example, Fallout, like any decent sci-fi story, is in a large part concerned with the mankind of the future, whether changed by technology, or by events, and this is indeed reasonably present in the events of the game. It's not in your face though, no. It's also about the power of an individual, but yet again, the message is turned instead more into a theme, which makes it far less blatant. Other works you've mentioned carry messages too, but they're bite-sized rather than monolithic, and this actually makes the audience accept it easier - or ignore it altogether if they choose to.

Oh yeah, and SS2 is, besides the usual decent sci-fi story concerns, interested in transhumanism and looks at it from various angles. However, it's not so much of a cautionary tale of transhumanism itself (implants are a-okay) but rather, of man playing god (trying to create sentient AI is the thing that backfires, and then the resultant biological monstrosities, which, granted, are more of an indirect result but nevertheless). Then you get themes of one vs many, David vs Goliath and all such other themes and references that you can find, if you like, or omit, and view as purely a space adventure, both of which actually work fine.

TL;DR: Subtle themes/messages = good; blatant themes/messages = bad.

I did mention that " I can see how having a unifying theme can help enhance cohesiveness" and yes plot, character development, and motivations too. These are indirect benefits and it is mostly invisible to the audience that the theme was there to help. However many critic-types seem to like to elevate theme, messages etc. to the highest pedestal where they are the biggest factor in making a film great. That I cannot understand so I assumed that some people get very direct benefits from themes and such.

Ah, but that's the problem of the "game critics", you see. They've heard that themes and messages are a good thing, but they didn't hear that the implementation actually has to be good in order for these items to be admired.
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
I know it ,but Bioshock 1 and System Shock 2 didn't tried to say anything or discuss any social issue.
I can't think of a single game that was made better by having a message or discussing social issues.

Come to think of it, I can't think of a single piece of fiction in any form that was made better by having a message or discussing social issues.

In fact, words such as "social issues", "theme", "message" are the kind that piss me off in the context of fiction. I can see how having a unifying theme can help enhance cohesiveness and purity but beyond that?

None of my favorite games or movies are tainted by messages or at least they aren't part/a large part of what made them so good. It's possible that this simply makes me a more superficial or primal
gamer but it is what it is.

I would love to hear about the messages some prominent games (supposedly) have. Or why having these "messages" is good in the first place as I've never understood that.
If you like, drop a few title samples and I'll gladly ruin them for you for all time by revealing the messages of the given works.

Okay, how about Fallout? Or SS2 because DeepOcean mentioned that it didn't try to say anything and yet it's one my favorites. Torment would probably be easier.

Or if you wanted movie titles then how about Usual Suspects, Collateral, 12 Angry Men, or maybe the Swedish movie Ondskan (Evil) but that one is probably too obscure.

Seriously? That's so counter-culture it almost takes a shot at culture as a whole. Messages, themes provide subtext and meaning.

And what do subtext and "meaning" provide?

If you really think that 12 Angry Men doesn't deal with social issues, and that PST doesn't have overarching themes, then your ideas of what these terms mean is likely tainted by derivative, shallow crap like Bioshock: Infinite being lauded for including them.
 

Declinator

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
542
Okay, how about Fallout? Or SS2 because DeepOcean mentioned that it didn't try to say anything and yet it's one my favorites. Torment would probably be easier.

Or if you wanted movie titles then how about Usual Suspects, Collateral, 12 Angry Men, or maybe the Swedish movie Ondskan (Evil) but that one is probably too obscure.

A-ha, I think I see what you mean now, by the collection of things you mention. I can provide some of the message range that these provide, but instead I'll say this (unless you want, then I'll post what I was writing until this thought struck me): the works you mention don't have a BLATANT MESSAGE THAT TRIES TO BE HAMMERED INTO THE AUDIENCE'S SKULL. These still do carry messages and themes, but said items are actually made by competent writers/filmmakers and they lead the audience subtly to arrive at certain conclusions or pick up certain messages and do with them as they like instead.

For example, Fallout, like any decent sci-fi story, is in a large part concerned with the mankind of the future, whether changed by technology, or by events, and this is indeed reasonably present in the events of the game. It's not in your face though, no. It's also about the power of an individual, but yet again, the message is turned instead more into a theme, which makes it far less blatant. Other works you've mentioned carry messages too, but they're bite-sized rather than monolithic, and this actually makes the audience accept it easier - or ignore it altogether if they choose to.

Oh yeah, and SS2 is, besides the usual decent sci-fi story concerns, interested in transhumanism and looks at it from various angles. However, it's not so much of a cautionary tale of transhumanism itself (implants are a-okay) but rather, of man playing god (trying to create sentient AI is the thing that backfires, and then the resultant biological monstrosities, which, granted, are more of an indirect result but nevertheless). Then you get themes of one vs many, David vs Goliath and all such other themes and references that you can find, if you like, or omit, and view as purely a space adventure, both of which actually work fine.

TL;DR: Subtle themes/messages = good; blatant themes/messages = bad.

I agree that subtlety is the key but sometimes one has to wonder whether it is subtlety or nonexistence at play.

The SS2 "playing god leads to ruin" is indeed a good example of the kind of theme/message that simply put doesn't even exist for me. All I see is that this AI went bad in the story and that's that. These kinds of things never lead me to conclude that "this movie was trying to say this and that" which is also the reason why I always find it so absurd when some people start seeing things like chauvinism in a game when all the women in the game were assholes. To me it's just that these women happened to be assholes in the story.

Of course I can consciously analyse the game/movie and see these as possible messages but they do not ring true for me.

I would like to hear what you thought about the themes/messages in Usual Suspects if that's not too much trouble. For me that movie has always been about the twist. Everything for that single moment.

If you really think that 12 Angry Men doesn't deal with social issues, and that PST doesn't have overarching themes, then your ideas of what these terms mean is likely tainted by derivative, shallow crap like Bioshock: Infinite being lauded for including them.

What I'm most interested in is not whether 12 Angry Men deals with social issues but whether that makes it a better movie. Does it and if so, why?
 

deuxhero

Arcane
Joined
Jul 30, 2007
Messages
11,842
Location
Flowery Land
I would love to hear about the messages some prominent games (supposedly) have. Or why having these "messages" is good in the first place as I've never understood that.

In Deus Ex, the message was that because Humans aren't perfect, they can't create a perfect government (and as a result, all governments throughout history have had major flaws), and they must either accept that and try to create a "least flawed" government, or become more than human.

There was also a lesser theme of, when technology becomes more and more advanced and can perform all the miracles of various faiths, just what makes God "God" and not just a supercomputer.

They were subtle, and while there are long conversations about it (Hong Kong bartender, Morpheus), they are all optional and the most explicit one is VERY easy to miss. Also (most importantly) the game and plot were solid on their own.
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
I agree that subtlety is the key but sometimes one has to wonder whether it is subtlety or nonexistence at play.
Pretty much every piece of narrative work comes with a message. Some of the more modern theories try to deny this, but that's, frankly, bullshit. The author applies their own ideology to the work they create, and no matter how simplistic or multi-threaded the piece is, there's always a message that the author intended. A good author will hide their message well enough for others to be able to create their own messages or overlook any such thing; some messages may simply be "Go out and have fun" or something equally impressive; however, they will be present in some form or another. Non-existence of such things is non-existent, and if you consider them to not exist in a certain work does not mean that this is in fact the truth.

The SS2 "playing god leads to ruin" is indeed a good example of the kind of theme/message that simply put doesn't even exist for me. All I see is that this AI went bad in the story and that's that. These kinds of things never lead me to conclude that "this movie was trying to say this and that" which is also the reason why I always find it so absurd when some people start seeing things like chauvinism in a game when all the women in the game were assholes. To me it's just that these women happened to be assholes in the story.

A story is usually self-contained, therefore, in the universe of the existing story, the elements can indeed be analyzed in such an inductive way. One AI can stand for all AI given enough support to the theory. In SS2, not one, but two AIs become the player's active antagonists, and they are the story universe's only two existing AIs - therefore, an interpretation of "Creating a sentient AI is bad" is quite valid. It's also quite skippable, if you'd rather skip this item. Now, in a game like ME, the theme of "AI = BAD" pops out quite a bit more and is rather more unavoidable, to the point it got noticed by the designers and sorta-kinda retconned in later installments. That is fairly blatant already - but then again, pretty much every AI in the game there tries to kill you, so yeah, you can probably guess that they're all evil.

I would like to hear what you thought about the themes/messages in Usual Suspects if that's not too much trouble. For me that movie has always been about the twist. Everything for that single moment.
Sadly this is one of the (many) films on my backlog. I'm more of a reader than a watcher, so a lot of things get recommended that just pile up.

Still, I see your point there - a lot of works exist for one moment. A twist, a line of dialogue, hell, even a word, the whole work just for the sake of one thing. Doesn't mean they don't have messages; rather, it means that it's not the message itself that's being fronted.


However, thing here is, people lauding B:I's themes and messages simply don't understand how themes and messages work. Not on your level of "not getting it", mind you, on a completely different level of "I don't get how this works but by GOD I want to sound smart right now" hipstery manner of gamer fanbases that love to spout terms and think they got their wording right. Themes and messages are commendable when they subtly gather in a single knot that, should the audience arrive to, leave them fascinated/amazed/terrified/disgusted et cetera, but not only that, they're meant to leave you feeling at least somewhat smart for picking up on those items. Some people make a living out of this, some, a hobby. Some just enjoy accidentally finding and piecing together this stuff to find a completely different story in front of them. Some rather ignore such things and enjoy things for what they are. And yet some others are just a bunch of morons trying to describe an elephant without ever having seen one, and, ironically, most of these work in gamejourno business.
 

Declinator

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
542
A story is usually self-contained, therefore, in the universe of the existing story, the elements can indeed be analyzed in such an inductive way. One AI can stand for all AI given enough support to the theory. In SS2, not one, but two AIs become the player's active antagonists, and they are the story universe's only two existing AIs - therefore, an interpretation of "Creating a sentient AI is bad" is quite valid. It's also quite skippable, if you'd rather skip this item. Now, in a game like ME, the theme of "AI = BAD" pops out quite a bit more and is rather more unavoidable, to the point it got noticed by the designers and sorta-kinda retconned in later installments. That is fairly blatant already - but then again, pretty much every AI in the game there tries to kill you, so yeah, you can probably guess that they're all evil.

I think the validity is questionable as two is still only two even if they are the only sentient AIs. (Was Xerxes really sentient or was he just a corrupted normal AI? Can't remember.)
If there was a long history of AIs going on rampage in the SS verse then it might be more reasonable.

In ME it seems much more valid as there are two entire races/groups of sentient AIs. (if one discounts the later retcons)

Themes and messages are commendable when they subtly gather in a single knot that, should the audience arrive to, leave them fascinated/amazed/terrified/disgusted et cetera, but not only that, they're meant to leave you feeling at least somewhat smart for picking up on those items. Some people make a living out of this, some, a hobby. Some just enjoy accidentally finding and piecing together this stuff to find a completely different story in front of them. Some rather ignore such things and enjoy things for what they are. And yet some others are just a bunch of morons trying to describe an elephant without ever having seen one, and, ironically, most of these work in gamejourno business.

Now this is what I wanted to hear. Thank you for that. I can't say that I've ever had such experiences with messages/themes even when I notice what they are in the first place but at least I can understand from that point of view why some would place such importance on them. Not that I had no idea whatsoever beforehand but the only thing that popped to my mind was that people liked feeling smart when they figured it out.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,404
The big problem of Bio Infinite is that issues like racism, income inequality, religiosity, war are so much exploited for political reasons in a very dishonest way by politicians. Bio Infinine didn't tried to bring anything new and just regurgitated the traditional political narrative, there is nothing there that I didn't saw a hundred times. Most gamming journalists lauded what is just the traditional political propaganda but in game form this time, the workers are exploited, everyone that isn't black is racist, industrialists are evil because they are rich and etc. without developing in the complexity of those issues. Anyone that read a little can see the superficial, brainless ways those themes are discussed and I wasn't impressed at all, it is as people already, said Bio Infinite discusses social issues as Django discusses racism, but at least Tarantino don't pretend that it is more than bullshit and movie critics aren't approval whores like gamming journalists in general . You can see the conflict of Irrational, they wanted to score cool points from the ignorant media but at same time make a traditional linear shooter to sell, the end result is something that isn't good in both. It is like some people already said, Bio Infinite should be an adventure game or a shooter that don't pretend to say anything.
 

dnf

Pedophile
Dumbfuck Shitposter
Joined
Nov 4, 2011
Messages
5,885
The big problem of Bio Infinite is that issues like racism, income inequality, religiosity, war are so much exploited for political reasons in a very dishonest way by politicians. Bio Infinine didn't tried to bring anything new and just regurgitated the traditional political narrative, there is nothing there that I didn't saw a hundred times. Most gamming journalists lauded what is just the traditional political propaganda but in game form this time, the workers are exploited, everyone that isn't black is racist, industrialists are evil because they are rich and etc. without developing in the complexity of those issues. Anyone that read a little can see the superficial, brainless ways those themes are discussed and I wasn't impressed at all, it is as people already, said Bio Infinite discusses social issues as Django discusses racism, but at least Tarantino don't pretend that it is more than bullshit and movie critics aren't approval whores like gamming journalists in general . You can see the conflict of Irrational, they wanted to score cool points from the ignorant media but at same time make a traditional linear shooter to sell, the end result is something that isn't good in both. It is like some people already said, Bio Infinite should be an adventure game or a shooter that don't pretend to say anything.
Im not sure about that, given the butthurt of Quentin about John Ford, and also the cocksucking movie critics that never sees a flaw in his movies.
 

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