Bioshock Infinite - the $200 million 6 hour literally on rails interactive movie with guns thread

[Morgoth]

Levine had to make a choice, and he actually posted that himself a long time ago @TTLG. They had to revamp the old horror-orientated, slow-paced Bioshock about Nazi-experiments and a more complex predator eco-system to a faster-paced shooter since they were arquired by 2K at the time and they weren't interested in some "stupid shooter that would only sell 200k units". So Ken, also having an understanding of business needs, decided to turn it into something mass appealing without hopefully losing the core concepts. Well? Again, we could have gotten the Bioshock he and his team envisioned to make, but after that it would have been shutty-shutty time. And no Irrational games ever again.

Also, here are some of the very old concepts:

 

[Infinitron]

Yes, Ken Levine used to post on the TTLG forums, similar to how Gaider used to post here. After the reaction to Bioshock, he stopped.

 

[Infinitron]

Btw, here's an interesting post on TTLG from several months ago, discussing that forum's future: http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139478

The overall impression I get is a loose focus on "immersive sim" type games. This seems to have organically grown out of following games by ex-LGSers (Deus Ex), or that were inspired by LGS games (Arx Fatalis), then branched out into other open-world adventure/RPGs.

This might actually be a good focus for TTLG to revitalize itself going forward-- explicitly brand itself as not just a shrine to Looking Glass (a noble goal, but sadly destined to relegate TTLG to "museum" status), but also a haven for immersive sim action/adventure/RPG gaming. Kind of like an RPG Codex for people with hand-eye coordination.

How can you kill something that's already dead? Let this place fade away gracefully instead of always making fizzled attempts at propping it back up again. Let it serve as a memorial site for a dead company and a tightly focused hangout for the few who still care enough to contribute. Dan and Saam created something to be proud of these 15 years, but surely they've moved on and nothing lasts forever. Nobody cares what an "immersive sim" is.

 

[thesoup]

Someone on this forum said Levine was advertising Bioshock on TTGL, swearing Bioshock is really hardcore, that the presentations and trailers just didn't show the ss2 features it had. And then the TTGL folks played Bioshock...
I have no sympathy for Levine or Irrational. Maybe he should join Romero and work on mobile games.

 

[Infinitron]

Someone on this forum said Levine was advertising Bioshock on TTGL, swearing Bioshock is really hardcore, that the presentations and trailers just didn't show the ss2 features it had. And then the TTGL folks played Bioshock...

TTLG.

And yes, that's true. I remember that. The backlash was quite harsh by the standards of a non-Codexian forum.

 

[thesoup]

Fucking lapse.

Link to that backlash plx.

 

[Renegen]

I spent many years on TTLG. My favourite argument was trying to convince them slow burning choices and consequences could be fun versus instant visibility to your choices. I failed. They are very closed minded and sadly destined to languish. They do have a fantastic user-made content community however.

And I also fell for that Ken Levine Bioshock video

 

[Peter]

Link to that backlash plx.

 

[Infinitron]

Fucking lapse.

Link to that backlash plx.

Link to that backlash plx.

Try here: http://www.ttlg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117350&page=1

Is it just me or is Levine...

...very rude and uncultured? Every time I see some interview or quote from him he's cursing and often expressing infantile opinions with great gusto but with very little style that one would expect from one supposedly endowed with such genius. Is there an elephant in the room? Are you guys attributing the coolness of IG games to his vision when in reality it was the result of other things (like a group effort?) Could this vulgar baboon really be responsible for some of the best games ever (tm) and wouldn't it be ironic if 2K kept him around only because the fanbase thinks so?

"Vulgar Baboon?"

Nobody's ever called me anything that awesome. Thanks!

 

[thesoup]

I really hate the phrase "immersive sim". That sounds like a description for a fucking Sims game. Warren Spector is a walking buzzword.

edit
Thanks Infinitron.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Bioshock is taking System Shock 2 and dumbing down all its features to hell and back. There's no "reedeming feature" or "wasted potential", it just makes it hurt as fuck.

 

[thesoup]

Infinitron
What kind of a backlash is that? Most of them were white knighting Levine and even applauding him for promoting depth to casual audiences so that one day, thanks to Bioshock, games like SS2 might become commercial hits as well.

I'm not really sure how at this point I can answer complaints. The game is what it is (with the exception of potential changes in patches). It's not going to fundamentally change. I was heavily involved in reading the community during development to get feedback on what people wanted (and led to things like adding options for quest arrows and various loot shaders (on the pc for the latter), and upcoming things like Widescreen.

But if people are fundamentally unhappy about the game for broader reasons, I can read their posts (which I do), but they're not going to have an effect on BioShock for the basic reason is that the game is finished.

However, I am sensitive to some people's issues that BioShock is not similar enough for their tastes to System Shock 2. We had some complaints (sometimes very bitter) that System Shock 2 wasn't similar to System Shock 1, and they were from the same franchise.

One of our goals with BioShock was to introduce the deeper shooter to a large segment of the gaming public and make it a commercially succesful franchise. Although that's a goal I imagine some here would look down upon, it's was critically important to me personally as a developer and a gamer. If it has any part in allowing more games in this genre to get funded, I'll feel we've accomplished our mission.

Oh, and for the benefit of the thread starter: FUCK YEAH! Bioshock is fucking Roxxorz, dude!

Pretty much only one guy called him out on his bullshit.

However, I am sensitive to some people's issues that BioShock is not similar enough for their tastes to System Shock 2. We had some complaints (sometimes very bitter) that System Shock 2 wasn't similar to System Shock 1, and they were from the same franchise.

Even if looked at by itself, BS feels frenetic, clownish and unchallenging. The AI is barely present, the story is daft, the enemies are unvaried but manifold, the weapons are as generic as they could be, the spells are uninteresting, the level design is confusing and uninspired. Need I go on?

Basically, you took SS2 and turned it into underwater Doom. For whose benefit I don't understand, since by genius of marketing your game would've sold the same if it were tetris or an a overly detailed simulation.

One of our goals with BioShock was to introduce the deeper shooter to a wider audience[..]

I'm at a loss here what we're comparing BS to. Have you even played any critically acclaimed shooters from this millennium (or heck, the last years of the former)? Well I have, and most of them were a lot deeper than BS, and--this is crucial because your game fails here completely--presented challenges beyond the flesh-and-bones player staying awake and interested long enough to finish.

I mean come on, at best you've made the video game equivalent of Da Vinci Code. If you wanted to make a game housewives could play with one hand while preparing breakfast for their children and sending them off to school (is that what Vita Chambers are for?), this is fine, but it should've been emphasized more so we could avoid it. And why call it the "spiritual successor" to SS2? To sell more copies? To get the fanbase to make free hype for you?

Then replies like this

denisv : Are you trying to be a troll or is it just that you had a bad day ? Finding BioShock not to be up to what you expected is one thing, but your empty criticisms only make you look... like a vulgar baboon.

 

[Infinitron]

thesoup
Yup. TTLG is not the Codex. That's why they're dying/near death.

Today's Internet values those who tell brutal truths, for they are so rare.

 

[Metro]

...and if the game had been true to the kind of experience the video tried to sell, it would be substantially different.

Of that I have no doubt. What I do doubt is that it was ever designed that way and what you're seeing in the video is an intentional marketing gimmick to present it to be something noticeably different than what it actually is -- as you note everything is sort of slowed down and he makes all of the 'choices' deliberately paced to over-emphasize a trivial decision like ducking behind a counter or choosing a certain type of ammo.

 

[Quetzacoatl]

I have no real interest in this game that the previous two didn't kill off. Maybe if by some miracle the open sky environment is used in an interesting way then maybe. Shame that Levine has fallen so far.

More of the same = yawn. Plus, while i think Levin is a decent writer as far as gaming standards go, the Jew is just too strong on this one. Lol the history of Amerikwa is evil 'n shit, no way he's projecting his own racial prejudice here at all, no sir.

Also, bloom. Mother of god, the motherfucking bloom. This is going to be nothing more then Bioshock on clouds.

Racial prejudice? Kwans are a race now? So expressing a stronge dislike of Kwan government and its history is racism? Le fuck?

 

[Lyric Suite]

The united states were created by white Europeans. So yes, the Kwa is and has always been a racial state. Any argument to the contrary is demented, plain and simple.

By creating a bleak and "hateful" representation of America's past, Levin is just acting out on his own instinctive sense of estrangement and alieness towards a country and a people he feels no part of. This is a little game Jews play out on a constant basis, if only on a sub-conscious level, and to a degree of excess most gentiles cannot comprehend, since it is hard for the latter to conceive of any people who share no identity with the country they were born or grew up in, let alone making that sense estrangement a pivotal element of their entire existence.

 

[Infinitron]

Kevin Macdonald said so, so it must be true!

 

[Lyric Suite]

Who?

 

[Infinitron]

Interesting. I respect you a bit more now.

But you're still wrong.

 

[Morgoth]

By creating a bleak and "hateful" representation of America's past, Levin is just acting out on his own instinctive sense of estrangement and alieness towards a country and a people he feels no part of.

Levine is being critical of America's past, doesn't mean he hates his own country, or feels alienated toward it.

The mere fact that he is using such a topic for a video game (and a FPS no less) already puts him into the top 1% of able creative directors compared to all these other hipster shitstains that call themselves game designers/writers.

 

[Quetzacoatl]

What the fuck is a "racial state"? Is the Codex a racial forum? Why the sudden stereotypical remark about Jews? Why does criticizing your country mean you hate it? Don't tell me all of Italian history is perfect and spotless, Lyric Suite.

 

[Morgoth]

It's Lyric Suite. In his view, the Jews are the culprit of everything gone bad.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Interesting. I respect you a bit more now.

Actually, now that i've googled it, i do remember that guy (didn't recognize the name at first), but i never read his books. I don't need to anyway, i'm not interested in the type of "evidence" he presents, since the truth of Jewish hatred towards gentiles is all too obvious in itself. His thesis is also wrong (lol evolutionary biology), though it is based on a correct interpretation of the facts.

So, by all means, go ahead and lose respect in me, since my understanding of the situation is actually much, much more extreme than that of this Macdonald guy. Sorry.

But you're still wrong.

Nope, i'm actually right, as regrettable as that may be. To be an American, or a German, or a Frenchman, all those nationalities comport a set of specific traits tied to unique cultural and historical identities. What defines a Jew however is not adherence to a given identity, but rejection and hatred of alien identities. Where gentile identity relies on an affirmation of national or cultural entities, Jewish identity relies on the rejection of said national and cultural entities.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Levine is being critical of America's past, doesn't mean he hates his own country, or feels alienated toward it.

To the contrary, that's precisely what it means. It is the eternal manifestation of the "corrosive irony" by which means Jews have destroyed western confidence and positive cultural outlook from within.

The mere fact that he is using such a topic for a video game (and a FPS no less) already puts him into the top 1% of able creative directors compared to all these other hipster shitstains that call themselves game designers/writers.

Nope, its just pretentious and dumb. Levine is a decent writer for the standards of this field but he was at his best when he had no actual creative direction, just did what he was told to do.

 

[Lyric Suite]

It's Lyric Suite. In his view, the Jews are the culprit of everything gone bad.

It was us Europeans that started the decline, i'm not going to deny that, but it wasn't until Jews that things started to precipitate towards total obliteration. Almost every single one of the founders of modernity was Jewish. Marx, Einstein, Freud etc. Modernity is a Jewish thing the way the Renaissance was a European thing.