Bioshock Infinite - the $200 million 6 hour literally on rails interactive movie with guns thread

[potatojohn]

It has at least one QTE. There's one at the station where if you fail the guy stabs you in the hand.

 

[aris]

What? I can't remember that. Do you have any videos of it?

 

[Medic]

It has at least one QTE. There's one at the station where if you fail the guy stabs you in the hand.

That's not a QTE but a dialogue choice with a time limit.

 

[Utgard-Loki]

the one were you can choose to shoot the guy in the head?

 

[chestburster]

Here's the first proof, because this is just false. After Elisabeth and Booker, they are probably the most important characters in the plot. The role of the twins in the story is not nearly as mysterious as for, say, Gman, and their roles and some of their motivations are amply detailed if you had paid attention to the audio diaries you could have found lying around. It's even pretty much spelled out to you at the end, how the twins were one of the main protagonists in what all the game revolves around: "bring us the girl and wipe away the debt", it amazes me that this escaped you. Because it must have, seeing that you think that they have no role in the story.

No. The twins are nothing but plot devices, because:

(1) They have absolute no personalities except the most shallow stereotypical ones and no motivations except the most contrived ones. They are nothing but quirky scientists --that quirky personality is shallow because scientists being quirky are absolutely cliched to the level of "Black dude carrying with huge machine gun"; their motivations are never clearly explained: why did they help build Columbia? Why did they give Comstock the quantum machines to play with? Why did they bring in Booker? They are God-like omnipresent beings now so why do they care? And if they do care, why do they talk in such a detached way with such a quirky attitude, accompanied by that sitcom quirky music?

--Because the Luteces are without personalities and motivations, they hardly qualify as "characters" which brings us to the second point:

(2) The twins are merely a plot device, not dissimilar to a quantum syphon. The only purpose the twins serve is to support the plot. Levine had difficulty explaining why Columbia would exist in the first place, had difficulty explaining why Booker dimmension-jumped in the first place, etc. and therefore he created a plot device: --you can replace the twins with, for example, a "quantum machine that accidentally openned 'tears' between parallel universes" and the story won't be affacted a bit.

(3) And what do we call "plot devices that come out of nowhere and tie up a story in a contrived way"? --Deus ex machina. And it's generally considered bad storytelling technique.

 

[pocahaunted]

o_O How is the setting in bioinf not fleshed out beyond the starting point? You'll have to explain that a lot better, what does it not having any side quests of grand importance have to do with it?

If you have to ask the second question, I don't think you understand what the first point implies.

They are "copypasta" intentionally; the game, instead of moralizing on racisms, shows that any faction that comes to power can become corrupt and oppressing, no mather their ideals. It seems like this point escaped you.

Oh, of course, intentionally! Not lazy and uninspired! Moralizing on racisms? What does that even mean? What's a "racism", as apparently a plural form exists. Look, it's clear from the start that the rebels are a bunch of whackjobs, even if they show no hints of being racist. As a movement born out of rage, they start killing people indiscriminately after no longer being the underdog, it's symptomatic revenge from a group whose leadership had mental issues. It's not a commentary on power and corruption, since they never actually established power outright, the rebellion had not ended at the time. The movement was comprised of lunatics, if anything ideals were merely a cover. In addition, such commentary, if it exists, should be driven by actions, not by stripping elements of their individuality - that's just LAZY.

How doesn't the gameplay support the story? It's a game about parallell universes, you use that story element vastly in the gameplay to drag strategic resources into your world, throughout the whole game. How does the gameplay of PS:T support the story more? An Airborne cityscape is an interesting and fairly unique setting, you don't need more of an excuse. Furthermore, you are outside at least 50% of the time, I think more, not inside buildings. And again, how is the story more convolutedly delivered in bioinf with respect to PS:T?

You don't drag strategic resources into the world. You temporarily allocate them during combat and to bypass near-obstacles. Oh, you also move over dimensions when you seemingly reach a dead-end. There's no thought whatsoever about possible repercussions of doing so, it's a willy-nilly decision despite the complexities that should be inherent to dimension hopping.

This gimmick is no different from entering a door, except unlike in PST you don't have a say on when to enter, you don't need to search for portals, nor do you have the ability to encounter secret doorways - for one simple reason, they don't exist. PST's portals were intregal to making Sigil feel alive and consistent, Bioinf's portals are nothing but glorified, albeit uninspired, plot devices. Examples? Oh, in this reality Chen is dead, but in the following his tools have been apprehended and we can't move them, on the next hop everything's ok except the rebels are winning! What was the point of going to look for Chen's tools in the first place since they couldn't move them anyway? Just an excuse to pad the game and throw more enemies at the player along the way. What about the asylum sequence? Liz is supposedly in power and helps you out, but her minions still attack you, that makes sense. The other only dimension hop that happens while you're playing is when you wake up on a beach, an excuse to avoid deat which is unrelated to gameplay and is inconsequential to the plot. But yeah, the tears sure work in conjunction with gameplay, since you can spawn weapons, medkits, hooks and cover at your side!

An airborne cityscape is definitely interesting, except in this case the concept wasn't well executed. You could've literally played the game indoors with a metro system to replace the rails. The setting is inconsequential, there are no societal quirks derived from living above the clouds, nor are there any environmental considerations mentioned. It's just in the sky, because Bioshock 1 was underwater and otherwise people wouldn't think it awesome enough - the gameplay is disjointed from the setting.

You keep asking why it's more convoluted, but the plots have nothing in common in their delivery. There's no time travel or alternative realities in PST. The testament to Bioinf's poor delivery lies in how suddenly a multitude of twists are delivered in the ending, that just happen to conviniently allow the player to wave away all questions that might have arisen. The ending is a convoluted twist, because it could fit literally any story whatsoever. It completely overrides the rest of the narrative in terms of importance, you could even claim a deus ex machina arises from Liz magically obtaining the ability to open tears from having her finger cut in a tear, despite it being opened by a machine and there being no logic whatsoever to that chain of events. PST's ending, on the other hand, serves as closure, it doesn't explain the plot at all.

 

[aris]

(2) The twins are merely a plot device, not dissimilar to a quantum syphon. The only purpose the twins serve is to support the plot. Levine had difficulty explaining why Columbia would exist in the first place, had difficulty explaining why Booker dimmension-jumped in the first place, etc. and therefore he created a plot device: --you can replace the twins with, for example, a "quantum machine that accidentally openned 'tears' between parallel universes" and the story won't be affacted a bit.

You're painting yourself into a corner. That's why you create stories in the first place, as a "plot device" to support the plot. And no, you couldn't replace the twins with that, and not having the story affected. Not by a long shot. There would be no bioshock infinite story without the twins.

 

[chestburster]

(2) The twins are merely a plot device, not dissimilar to a quantum syphon. The only purpose the twins serve is to support the plot. Levine had difficulty explaining why Columbia would exist in the first place, had difficulty explaining why Booker dimmension-jumped in the first place, etc. and therefore he created a plot device: --you can replace the twins with, for example, a "quantum machine that accidentally openned 'tears' between parallel universes" and the story won't be affacted a bit.

You're painting yourself into a corner. That's why you create stories in the first place, as a "plot device" to support the plot. Furthermore, you pretty much admit that you were wrong in saying that they play no role in the story. And no, you couldn't replace the twins with that, and not having the story affected. Not by a long shot. There would be no bioshock infinite story without the twins.

I didn't say that "they play no role in the story".

A person in a story CAN be both a "plot device" and a "character", at the same time, if that person is well written (hell, you can even think Eli Vance from HL2: he is there to advance the whole HL2 EP1 EP2 plot; but he is an interesting character with personalities and motivations). A not-well-written story offers only pale plot devices, not flesh-and-blood characters.

The twins' problem, is that they are NOTHING MORE THAN a plot device, not genuine characters.

And as you admit, without the twins, there would be no bioshock infinite story. --This only exacerbates the problem: rest the whole B:I story on a barely-explained plot device? This is Deus ex machina incarnated! A massive cop-out at the level of the writer.

 

[aris]

This is really getting retarded. Then surely the transcendent one in PS:T is nothing but a plot device either, or pharod, or Razel? If the twins are merely plot devices, then what the hell is Gman in the half life series? Something less than a plot device?

And no, they are not deus ex machinas when they are integral to the plot from the beginning. And conversely, saying that they are imperative to the story, does not mean that they are deus ex machinas.

Here, gain some knowledge

A deus ex machina (pron.: /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiːəs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/;[1]Latin: "god from the machine" pronounced [ˈdeus eks ˈmaː.kʰi.na]; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot devicewhereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved, with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

 

[AngryEddy]

The only way BioInf could've been good, is if we actually time traveled, instead of just "Hey, I control time, but we're gonna stay in 1912"

The story could've been about the cloud city vs the ground [which the subplot was about, but they fucking dropped it like a hot potato], and actually show the city changing to the time instead of [1912 zepplins bombing 1984 New York]. But what do I know, the plot is clever with it's 1 dimensional characters and constant reinforcement of girl power ["I'm doing this alone." "NO IM COMING WITH YOU"] which they did about 7 times at the end.


The worst part of the game, is when I tried to immerse myself in the story, and tried to throw the baseball at the Irish/Negro couple, the game firmly stopped and said "NOPE, NO C&C FOR YOU, GET ON THE RAILS!". I forgot to add in, that Kevin Levine doesn't understand the whole paradox deal, because even if a bunch of 12 year old girls drown you, there's still an infinite amount of universes where he doesn't get drowned, then there's an infinite amount of universes where Comstock is a reasonable guy. Fuck this stupid story and it's goddamn retarded defenders.

 

[aris]

The worst part of the game, is when I tried to immerse myself in the story, and tried to throw the baseball at the Irish/Negro couple, the game firmly stopped and said "NOPE, NO C&C FOR YOU, GET ON THE RAILS!".

There is actually a minor C&C in this: If you try to throw it at Fink, you will meet the couple again, if you try to throw it at the couple, you won't. But it's definitely not a C&C game.

 

[pocahaunted]

Dude, you don't get it. Elizabeth's attainment of power is a deep metaphor for the empowerment of women, despite men trying to oppress them all the time (Booker selling her to buy potato like a pimpster). Plus, drowning one Booker destroys all Cumsluts, because Elizabeth is now a demi-god that merges timelines and dimensions by her mere presence (despite the fact that there exist infinite dimensions). TRU DEPTH.

 

[Heresiarch]

The worst part of the game, is when I tried to immerse myself in the story, and tried to throw the baseball at the Irish/Negro couple, the game firmly stopped and said "NOPE, NO C&C FOR YOU, GET ON THE RAILS!".

Yeah, that part pissed me off too. I've restarted that checkpoint for 2 times - throw at the announcer, at the couple, doing nothing - and ALL TURNED OUT THE SAME. Wtf?

I even restarted a checkpoint when I accidentally killed an innocent resident thinking it might hurt the ending or something - then I searched on the internet and found that even if you kill all the innocent bystanders it won't affect the game in a bit, Elizabeth won't even care at all. How fucking naive I was.

So much wasted potential, the game could actually have at least half a dozen of different endings depending on your in game choices. The various choices through out the game actually hinted at that, like who to throw the baseball at, to kill Slate or not, choosing which neck band for Elizabeth, etc. Even in one part of the game it hinted to you that "Stealing stuff might have consequences". But in the end they matter NOTHING at all.

Heck, have a look at Silent Hill 1 and Dishonored. Both stories, like B:I, were

Spoiler

centered on father/daughter relationship. But they have at least 4 different endings, and in the end you could end up killing your daughter.

Imagine the possibilities with Bioshock Infinite!

 

[Angthoron]

What a mind-blowing conversation.

There's really enough story to have all this discussion?

 

[Hellraiser]

If a character's motivation to set forth the events of the plot can be summed up as "well because he/she/they could do it" than why have a character in the first place? That's essentially the writer admitting he can't think of a good explanation to include X in his story other than "because X is AWESUM". Ergo it's poor writing especially for a supposedly "deep and intellectual" (har har) work like Levine's latest media-confused creation. You were born a game but you're really a movie! Don't let the cis-media oppressive majority tell you otherwise!

Oh yeah it's gauderp. Should have just left it at that.

 

[chestburster]

This is really getting retarded. Then surely the transcendent one in PS:T is nothing but a plot device either, or pharod, or Razel? If the twins are merely plot devices, then what the hell is Gman in the half life series? Something less than a plot device?

And no, they are not deus ex machinas when they are integral to the plot from the beginning. And conversely, saying that they are imperative to the story, does not mean that they are deus ex machinas.

Here, gain some knowledge

A deus ex machina (pron.: /ˈdeɪ.əs ɛks ˈmɑːkiːnə/ or /ˈdiːəs ɛks ˈmækɨnə/;[1]Latin: "god from the machine" pronounced [ˈdeus eks ˈmaː.kʰi.na]; plural: dei ex machina) is a plot devicewhereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved, with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object.

Yes G-man is nothing more than a plot device, at this stage. Maybe EP3 will tie up his story arc in a satifying way but I doubt it. For now, he is a plot device.

And your wiki quote plainly qualifies Lutece as a deus ex machina, because --let me break down that wiki definition for you--

" a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem (the existence of Columbia, tears, quantum magic, protagnist's existence in the first place, etc.)

is suddenly and abruptly resolved (scientists invented it! Why? Just Because! If that's not "suddenly and abruptly" resolved, I don't know what is),

with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object (the fucking parallel universe shit, and in turn, its inventors the Lutece twins, is introduced in the last minute of the game to resolve the mystery --again, if this is not "contrived and unexpected" I don't know what is)."

Look, I don't like to argue about definitions, and wiki is hardly with authority on this issue. But the bottomline, which I think even you would agree, is that Lutece twins are simply not very well detailed, nor well laid out. And to lay the whole premise of the plot on some vague character is not wise. Hence, bad writing and my disappointment with this game, especially after it being praised to high heavens as the Second Coming of story-based games.

 

[abija]

scientists invented it! Why?

Erm... what? Why would scientists need an ulterior motive to discover things like quantum magic or tears?

As for helping Comstock, it could just be the standard process. Scientist discovers things, villain gets interested and throws $$$, scientist is too focused on his discovery to see the grand scheme and helps villain, scientist finally wakes up, rebels and gets killed.

 

[Angthoron]

scientists invented it! Why?

Erm... what? Why would scientists need an ulterior motive to discover things like quantum magic or tears?

As for helping Comstock, it could just be the standard process. Scientist discovers things, villain gets interested and throws $$$, scientist is too focused on his discovery to see the grand scheme and helps villain, scientist finally wakes up, rebels and gets killed.

What, the scientist that can see infinite futures, you mean?

 

[abija]

No, the scientist that made the machine that could do it but wasn't obsessed with using it.
Also, that machine was probably finished after the scientist was bought (like most of them, which is the point of getting $$$ for a scientist, to be able to build things using the discovery).

Why do you keep trying to poke holes in it when that's the whole point of this type of setting, to be able to explain everything. It doesn't provide enough details for you to demonstrate anything is wrong.

 

[Angthoron]

In fact, you know what, I'll give you an interesting character motivation to the Lutece twins or whatever without ever having played the game once and only having circumstantial evidence.

John Lutece was a mild-mannered scientist, brilliant and driven, perhaps a tad too driven for his own good and his own time. Never once had he experienced a woman's gentle touch, never once had he been a lover, or a husband, and as his days of mad invention drifted by, he realized that nothing in this world could ever change it. Having come to this conclusion, John began to work twice as hard, breaking more boundaries of science than was deemed possible at the time. He had become a man possessed, a spirit of science embodied in a body of desire. Three years past the start of his latest crazy scheme, he had it - a machine to cross space and time. A machine that could be used to find his perfect mate.

Long has John searched the multiverse until he'd come to a simple realization... His perfect bride would be himself. Once again he began his search across endless possibilities of time and space - until he'd met Jane Lutece, his sort-of-sister, and soon-to-be wife, a brilliant, inquisitive mind beyond her own time. Together, they began to work on a future where scientists and inbreeding would be considered a-okay, together, they would build the city on the hill - or beyond it.


And there you go.

 

[Captain Shrek]

So someone explain me this:

Lutece creates magical machine to see 'future' (Which in fact could be a parallel universe). -> Comstok thinks this is a prophecy and then steals Elizabeth from Booker of the parallel world (NOT past since she does not exist). How does he do that? I mean stealing Elizabeth?

 

[chestburster]

scientists invented it! Why?

Erm... what? Why would scientists need an ulterior motive to discover things like quantum magic or tears?

As for helping Comstock, it could just be the standard process. Scientist discovers things, villain gets interested and throws $$$, scientist is too focused on his discovery to see the grand scheme and helps villain, scientist finally wakes up, rebels and gets killed.

Except the Lutece scientists here did more than simply "discovering things": they helped build a massive city run by an American Hitler and helped kidnap Elizabeth --unless they are retarded, I'd say, yes, they need ulterior motives to do such things.

Also from the plot, Lutece is helping Comstock exclusively while not sharing their quantum discovery with the world below (it's hinted that the Sodom below doesn't have access to quantum magic). --Again maybe 1912 scientists are different but the first thing real scientists do after discovering quantum magic is to publish it and let the whole world know how it works. Why is Lutece not acting like a bona fide scientist? What's his motive?

And what Angthoron said.

 

[chestburster]

In fact, you know what, I'll give you an interesting character motivation to the Lutece twins or whatever without ever having played the game once and only having circumstantial evidence.

John Lutece was a mild-mannered scientist, brilliant and driven, perhaps a tad too driven for his own good and his own time. Never once had he experienced a woman's gentle touch, never once had he been a lover, or a husband, and as his days of mad invention drifted by, he realized that nothing in this world could ever change it. Having come to this conclusion, John began to work twice as hard, breaking more boundaries of science than was deemed possible at the time. He had become a man possessed, a spirit of science embodied in a body of desire. Three years past the start of his latest crazy scheme, he had it - a machine to cross space and time. A machine that could be used to find his perfect mate.

Long has John searched the multiverse until he'd come to a simple realization... His perfect bride would be himself. Once again he began his search across endless possibilities of time and space - until he'd met Jane Lutece, his sort-of-sister, and soon-to-be wife, a brilliant, inquisitive mind beyond her own time. Together, they began to work on a future where scientists and inbreeding would be considered a-okay, together, they would build the city on the hill - or beyond it.


And there you go.

John Lutece goes through all the trouble only for something he can achieve simply by masturbating with his right hand? Bah!

 

[Angthoron]

In fact, you know what, I'll give you an interesting character motivation to the Lutece twins or whatever without ever having played the game once and only having circumstantial evidence.

John Lutece was a mild-mannered scientist, brilliant and driven, perhaps a tad too driven for his own good and his own time. Never once had he experienced a woman's gentle touch, never once had he been a lover, or a husband, and as his days of mad invention drifted by, he realized that nothing in this world could ever change it. Having come to this conclusion, John began to work twice as hard, breaking more boundaries of science than was deemed possible at the time. He had become a man possessed, a spirit of science embodied in a body of desire. Three years past the start of his latest crazy scheme, he had it - a machine to cross space and time. A machine that could be used to find his perfect mate.

Long has John searched the multiverse until he'd come to a simple realization... His perfect bride would be himself. Once again he began his search across endless possibilities of time and space - until he'd met Jane Lutece, his sort-of-sister, and soon-to-be wife, a brilliant, inquisitive mind beyond her own time. Together, they began to work on a future where scientists and inbreeding would be considered a-okay, together, they would build the city on the hill - or beyond it.


And there you go.

John Lutece goes through all the trouble only for something he can achieve simply by masturbating with his right hand? Bah!

But now he has infinite hands to do that while he conducts scientific experiments.

 

[chestburster]

But now he has infinite hands to do that while he conducts scientific experiments.

Come to think about it, the probability of finding a normal-looking female counterpart of oneself in an infinite set of universes with infinite possibilities is basically zero.

He's more likely to find an octopuss version of himself.

Damn I hate plots built on multiverse theory. Nothing makes sense once you analyze it a bit.