From Software Bloodborne. Discuss or die!

[Morality Games]

? While many Japanese developers (not Square Enix) have a trained preference for thrift, Dark Souls series has sold 27,000,000 copies, with only a handful of sales and mostly in $40-60 price range.

 

[Silva]

it would be expensive to build that much content just to cut it, especially since From is still an AA company and doesn't have that much money to throw away so frivolously.

Makes sense, but don't forget they change dialogue/descriptions through updates, to obfuscate information. So they punching holes in their plots on purpose is not unprecedented.

 

[Lutte]

? While many Japanese developers (not Square Enix) have a trained preference for thrift, Dark Souls series has sold 27,000,000 copies, with only a handful of sales and mostly in $40-60 price range.

A handful of sales? we don't live in the same universe.
Here's hard factual data, and just for steam alone (there are many other platforms from which you can buy discounted games) on the latest game, DS3
https://steamdb.info/app/374320/
1/ Discounted to $45 only 4 months after release
2/ $40 6 months after release
3/ same discount again 8 months after
4/ same discount again 9 months after
5/ first hard discount, $30 by december, 11 months after release
6/ $30 in April 2017
7/ $30 again in May
8/ $24 in June
9/ $24 in September
10/ $24 in November
11/ $15 in December 2017
not going to repeat for every other date, but it's been basically very hard discounted by that moment

This is what you call handful of sales and mostly in the $40-60 price range? I wish more games only had that level of "handful".
And mind you this is just steam data which I picked because it's what we tend to have most recorded stats for.
There were things like integration into three humble bundles, historical low of $9 on websites like greenmangaming etc etc etc.

Before you say butmyconsoles
https://www.reddit.com/r/darksouls3/comments/7y8zwi/dark_souls_iii_is_currently_on_sale_on/
It's harder to have full historical projections for those platforms, than, say, steam though, and retailers and physical media platforms like amazon tend to get you better deals than the console owner downloadable platforms. It's funny how for many games it's just cheaper to order from amazon to deliver you a physical disk on day one than buying something on the shitbox or sorny stores.

Besides, the amount of games sold doesn't tell the whole story. How much of the souls license From is taking revenue from which they can reinvest in new games, vs how much is Bandai Namco, the publisher, is getting?

 

[Morality Games]

? While many Japanese developers (not Square Enix) have a trained preference for thrift, Dark Souls series has sold 27,000,000 copies, with only a handful of sales and mostly in $40-60 price range.

A handful of sales? we don't live in the same universe.
Here's hard factual data, and just for steam alone (there are many other platforms from which you can buy discounted games) on the latest game, DS3
https://steamdb.info/app/374320/
1/ Discounted to $45 only 4 months after release
2/ $40 6 months after release
3/ same discount again 8 months after
4/ same discount again 9 months after
5/ first hard discount, $30 by december, 11 months after release
6/ $30 in April 2017
7/ $30 again in May
8/ $24 in June
9/ $24 in September
10/ $24 in November
11/ $15 in December 2017
not going to repeat for every other date, but it's been basically very hard discounted by that moment

This is what you call handful of sales and mostly in the $40-60 price range? I wish more games only had that level of "handful".
And mind you this is just steam data which I picked because it's what we tend to have most recorded stats for.
There were things like integration into three humble bundles, historical low of $9 on websites like greenmangaming etc etc etc.

Before you say butmyconsoles
https://www.reddit.com/r/darksouls3/comments/7y8zwi/dark_souls_iii_is_currently_on_sale_on/
It's harder to have full historical projections for those platforms, than, say, steam though, and retailers and physical media platforms like amazon tend to get you better deals than the console owner downloadable platforms.

Besides, the amount of games sold doesn't tell the whole story. How much of the souls license From is taking revenue from which they can reinvest in new games, vs how much is Bandai Namco, the publisher, is getting?

We certainly live in different universes. The first couple of those are trying to stimulate a feeding frenzy and the later ones are about moving the first DLC.

The game is priced at $60 4 years after release, and a normal sale is closer to $40. Sales intensive games aren't $60 4 years after release.

But let's suppose you're right, and they only made $30 average.

With DLC, they're pushing toward a billion dollars in revenues. That's not a AA number.

 

[cvv]

Handful of sales lol. I bought DS1 for 7 bucks and SotfS for 12 bucks. DS3 Deluxe was on sale more times than Witcher, I saw it for under 20 bucks.

 

[Morality Games]

Handful of sales lol. I bought DS1 for 7 bucks and SotfS for 12 bucks. DS3 Deluxe was on sale more times than Witcher, I saw it for under 20 bucks.

... if we're trading statistics, I'm going to stick to the ones that matters. You are positively saying that a game franchise that averages 9,000,000 sales per release is definitely an AA game?

I never knew Mass Effect was an AA game.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

You are positively saying that a game franchise that averages 9,000,000 sales per release is definitely an AA game?

They sell well, they are definitely polished products with millionaire budgets and last but not least they are super popular.
Yeah. It's safe to call them an AA franchise.

 

[J1M]

Folks, AAA/AA/B/III/indie isn't about sales numbers. Those monikers are about production values, aka relative budget and relative marketing budget.

 

[cvv]

Folks, AAA/AA/B/III/indie isn't about sales numbers. Those monikers are about production values, aka relative budget and relative marketing budget.

How do you even have to explain this? Wtf.

 

[Lutte]

Sales intensive games aren't $60 4 years after release.

4 years after release, here's all the sales for the deluxe bundle with all the dlc :
https://steamdb.info/sub/94174/

$21 in october, in november, in december 2019 and in jan 2020 (four consecutive months with important discount for the whole game + dlc bundle)
and then $14 in april and $21 in may

It's more often in discount than it's not. lol@$60 4 years after release. It's your own fucking fault if you miss every single sale when they occur on an almost monthly basis at certain time periods. You couldn't take worse games to make this kind of point for.
It's not like every single souls buyers gets all the dlc either.

Bottom line if after 4 years you're paying $60 for it it's because you really, really want to. I mean jeez, in 2020 it's been on mega sale in jan, april and may. That's three months out of 5. Come the fuck on.

 

[Hobo Elf]

? While many Japanese developers (not Square Enix) have a trained preference for thrift, Dark Souls series has sold 27,000,000 copies, with only a handful of sales and mostly in $40-60 price range.

A handful of sales? we don't live in the same universe.
Here's hard factual data, and just for steam alone (there are many other platforms from which you can buy discounted games) on the latest game, DS3
https://steamdb.info/app/374320/
1/ Discounted to $45 only 4 months after release
2/ $40 6 months after release
3/ same discount again 8 months after
4/ same discount again 9 months after
5/ first hard discount, $30 by december, 11 months after release
6/ $30 in April 2017
7/ $30 again in May
8/ $24 in June
9/ $24 in September
10/ $24 in November
11/ $15 in December 2017
not going to repeat for every other date, but it's been basically very hard discounted by that moment

This is what you call handful of sales and mostly in the $40-60 price range? I wish more games only had that level of "handful".
And mind you this is just steam data which I picked because it's what we tend to have most recorded stats for.
There were things like integration into three humble bundles, historical low of $9 on websites like greenmangaming etc etc etc.

Before you say butmyconsoles
https://www.reddit.com/r/darksouls3/comments/7y8zwi/dark_souls_iii_is_currently_on_sale_on/
It's harder to have full historical projections for those platforms, than, say, steam though, and retailers and physical media platforms like amazon tend to get you better deals than the console owner downloadable platforms. It's funny how for many games it's just cheaper to order from amazon to deliver you a physical disk on day one than buying something on the shitbox or sorny stores.

Besides, the amount of games sold doesn't tell the whole story. How much of the souls license From is taking revenue from which they can reinvest in new games, vs how much is Bandai Namco, the publisher, is getting?

I think one of the most important points people here are forgetting is that From isn't self-publishing any of their Souls games. Bandai Namco and Sony are going to reach deep into the profits that those millions copies sold generated before From gets their cut. If From was a legit AAA operation then they'd be big and rich enough to self-publish.

 

[Lutte]

Besides, the amount of games sold doesn't tell the whole story. How much of the souls license From is taking revenue from which they can reinvest in new games, vs how much is Bandai Namco, the publisher, is getting?

I think one of the most important points people here are forgetting is that From isn't self-publishing any of their Souls games. Bandai Namco and Sony are going to reach deep into the profits that those millions copies sold generated before From gets their cut. If From was a legit AAA operation then they'd be big and rich enough to self-publish.

Well I didn't forget because [part in bold]

 

[Hobo Elf]

Besides, the amount of games sold doesn't tell the whole story. How much of the souls license From is taking revenue from which they can reinvest in new games, vs how much is Bandai Namco, the publisher, is getting?

I think one of the most important points people here are forgetting is that From isn't self-publishing any of their Souls games. Bandai Namco and Sony are going to reach deep into the profits that those millions copies sold generated before From gets their cut. If From was a legit AAA operation then they'd be big and rich enough to self-publish.

Well I didn't forget because [part in bold]

Huh, yeah, I did miss that. Anyway, it's a big chunk. The average amount that a publisher will take is 30%. Many people tend to look at games sold and multiply that with the standard full price game and assume that this is how much a developer earned, which is obviously not true as there are deep discounts, store cuts and so forth that need to be taken into account. These days how many copies a game sold is just a buzzword at best. Tell me how much it EARNED, bruh.

 

[cvv]

I think one of the most important points people here are forgetting is that From isn't self-publishing any of their Souls games. Bandai Namco and Sony are going to reach deep into the profits that those millions copies sold generated before From gets their cut. If From was a legit AAA operation then they'd be big and rich enough to self-publish.

True enough, then again a part of the problem might be that self-publishing doesn't come naturally to devs in Japan, because it's been traditionally a PC thing due to Steam and PC in Japan has been always more an oddity than anything else, unlike the US and especially Europe.

 

[Morality Games]

Folks, AAA/AA/B/III/indie isn't about sales numbers. Those monikers are about production values, aka relative budget and relative marketing budget.

Okay.

In terms of performance and production values at least, I still can't really see Dark Souls trilogy on the same level as an inXile or even a Larian game. Maybe the first and second Dark Souls came close, but not Bloodborne or Dark Souls III.

 

[sullynathan]

Folks, AAA/AA/B/III/indie isn't about sales numbers. Those monikers are about production values, aka relative budget and relative marketing budget.

Okay.

In terms of performance and production values at least, I still can't really see Dark Souls trilogy on the same level as an inXile or even a Larian game. Maybe the first and second Dark Souls came close, but not Bloodborne or Dark Souls III.

They're massively bigger than Larian or Inxile and so is their budget. They also make far more money but from isn't spending $85 million on one game like CDPR did in Witcher 3, not that from needs to, to make a great game.

I remember some codexers shit posting about EA not posting sales numbers but revenue and profit numbers are more important here.

 

[Lutte]

Well, they certainly have far more talent and ability to work with lower resources than a shitshow like inXile.
but triple AAA experience they are not. They can bring out a good level of visual quality on a limited set of environments and with clever level design and illusions to hide away some of the gnarly shit but even then you sometime notice the level of cut corner they go through because they don't have that much of a budget for assets and they try very hard to not have to do more than the bare minimum of what you see while looking at what they want you to look at ie areas that you can explore and have enemies and please don't look too hard elsewhere.

.

That last one isn't even off the beaten path and is a result of the huge amount of cut corner from the b0rked development of DS2.
I won't even do DS1 because it's too easy. Latter half has a lot of really shit content quality.

Look at it this way : Arkane's games sell less copies than From's but their games have far, far higher production value. You can barely pick at the seams of a game like Dishonored 2. In comparison to such a game, any of the souls feels like they were made by talented people but on an indie budget.
Souls games barely make it with comparatively far smaller surface areas in their levels, with anything that's not traversable being something you don't want to stare at, much less use the binoculars on, for too long.

 

[sullynathan]

Lutte You're preaching to the choir here, everyone knows from software cuts corners on purpose. That's why these Souls threads reach hundreds of pages.

I actually wonder what their real budgets and profits must be, because they put out a shit ton of games and expansions in a short amount of time and must make a lot of money.

 

[Perkel]

From used that money and opened 2 more studios from what i heard. They have like 4 games in full scale production atm one of which is Elden Ring. From what i heard also they will self publish one of those.

So they have plenty enough money.

For comparison Platinum is yet to self publish any of their games but they also grew a lot over past 5-8 years. From one game to now 5 being worked on or something like that.

 

[Silva]

The fact From have a fraction of Arkane (and other AA/AAA) budget and yet makes games as visually compelling as they do, is a testament to their artistic prowess.

 

[Perkel]

Who said they have fraction of arcana budget ?

Just Dark Souls series sold 27mln not counting other games they made. They expanded from 1 to 3 studios like i mentioned above. Arcane i think has only one studio.

Also i don't undestand this "their gaes look like shit" when DS3 did look pretty fucking good as well as Sekiro no worse than any other AAA game out there. DS3 had crazy geometry detail when it was released and wowed me at the time.

 

[Silva]

Who said they have fraction of arcana budget ?

Just Dark Souls series sold 27mln not counting other games they made. They expanded from 1 to 3 studios like i mentioned above. Arcane i think has only one studio.

Also i don't undestand this "their gaes look like shit" when DS3 did look pretty fucking good as well as Sekiro no worse than any other AAA game out there. DS3 had crazy geometry detail when it was released and wowed me at the time.

Yes, but From assets are much more "humble" than what you see in, say, Dishonored 2, Red Dead Redemption 2 or Horizon Zero Dawn. Their games still have DNA of PS3 generation and it shows: textures, lighting, particle effects, low poly count, level clippings, etc. And yet, the fact the games are still beautiful in their own way is something to praise.

I.e: BB atmosphere is arguably on par with - or better than - any of the above cited games even with that poor greyish darkness, poor chromatic aberration, poor anti-aliasing, poor texture quality and poor lack of dynamic lighting.

Let that sink for a moment.

It's the analogous to arriving at a new job as a plastic artist expecting to have your quality clay and paints and brushes and you boss dumps on a pot and gives to you saying "here, do something beautiful with this. Consider yourself lucky I ate vegetables yesterday so it's slightly greenish". And then you go ahead and create a beautiful work of art. With that turd.

 

[Sentinel]

Who said they have fraction of arcana budget ?

Just Dark Souls series sold 27mln not counting other games they made. They expanded from 1 to 3 studios like i mentioned above. Arcane i think has only one studio.

Also i don't undestand this "their gaes look like shit" when DS3 did look pretty fucking good as well as Sekiro no worse than any other AAA game out there. DS3 had crazy geometry detail when it was released and wowed me at the time.

Arkane has two studios, one in Lyon and another in Austin. FromSoftware has 2 studios that I know of, one in Tokyo and another in Fukuoka.
Platinum also recently self published The Wonderful 101 on PC and PS4. It was a monumental disaster, at least on PC, with them tweeting "The Wonderful 101 is now released in X region! Enjoy!" but no one being able to access the store page for 6+ hours because it wasn't live yet.

 

[Perkel]

Your head has PS3 DNA. DS3 and BB are one of the first games this generation that went wild with geometry detail. What used to be just bump map texture for stuff most of the time they did actual 3D modelling. DS3 looks a bit worse because they had to take into account 1,2TF xbox instead of being done only on 1,9tf ps4. I didn't play sekiro but i doubt it will look better than BB for same reason as DS3.

Bloodborne

DS3

 

[Silva]

Perkel , you just prove my point. Bloodborne is beautiful even though it lacks dynamic lighting, god rays, good anti-aliasing, great textures, etc.

TL;DR: they do great with limited resources.


P.S: Sekiro does have dynamic lighting, god-rays, good anti-alias and a color palette that finally frees us from the greyish hue. I find it prettier than BB, yes, because the lighting makes a difference, specially as the game uses times of day better, giving morning, afternoon, dusk, etc. their own visual cues.