Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[Hobo Elf]

I played Arcanum because the school jock practically forced his copy on me. He was deeply in love with the game and wanted everyone at school to play it. I very much doubt he read a manual. The manual isn't even useful for Arcanum given how simple the mechanics actually are and the in game UI doing a suitably decent job at communicating important information to the play. The game requires trial and error that can only be experienced by playing the game. The manual won't prepare you for the actual implementation of the mechanics, such as Harm being the "I WIN" button or ranged combat being dogshit without meta knowledge.

 

[Alienman]

School jock, how did that happen?

 

[Roguey]

This can't be fucking real, TESTERS are this bad?

He has to be exaggerating

He said "what i actually saw in the released game" so this is in reference to streamers (which still includes people who get paid money to play video games depending on how large their audience is )

 

[Maxie]

based testers be like "yeah you're going to ship toee with a bard map transition crash bug because we don't like to playtest bards "

 

[Roguey]

and the in game UI doing a suitably decent job at communicating important information to the play.

Ehhh. A couple of reviews from when Arcanum was new:
https://www.ign.com/articles/2001/08/24/arcanum-of-steamworks-and-magick-obscura

While creating your first character may take some time, learning the game's interface is even more overwhelming. The game's interface isn't very intuitive, bordering on being downright clunky, and it will take a bit of time before you're proficient with everything.

https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/arcanum-of-steamworks-and-magick-obscura-review/1900-2806286/

Regardless of what sort of character you opt for, controlling the game should have been simpler. As it is, you have a limited ability to scroll your view, presumably based on your character's field of vision. This feels very confining and rather awkward, as you'll constantly be using the keyboard arrow keys to scroll around while moving your character with the mouse. It's an ungainly system, and so is much of the interface, which takes up a large portion of the screen and isn't intuitively laid out. This, along with the lack of in-game help or a tutorial, means you'll often have to consult the manual at first, though you probably won't mind the diversion since the manual is a lot of fun to read.

These are ultimately positive reviews too. I bet all or most of them say variations of this.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

There's actually a two hour stream of Tim and Leonard playing Fallout 1 that happened 4 years ago. I missed it.

 

[Hobo Elf]

and the in game UI doing a suitably decent job at communicating important information to the play.

Ehhh. A couple of reviews from when Arcanum was new:
https://www.ign.com/articles/2001/08/24/arcanum-of-steamworks-and-magick-obscura

While creating your first character may take some time, learning the game's interface is even more overwhelming. The game's interface isn't very intuitive, bordering on being downright clunky, and it will take a bit of time before you're proficient with everything.

https://www.gamespot.com/reviews/arcanum-of-steamworks-and-magick-obscura-review/1900-2806286/

Regardless of what sort of character you opt for, controlling the game should have been simpler. As it is, you have a limited ability to scroll your view, presumably based on your character's field of vision. This feels very confining and rather awkward, as you'll constantly be using the keyboard arrow keys to scroll around while moving your character with the mouse. It's an ungainly system, and so is much of the interface, which takes up a large portion of the screen and isn't intuitively laid out. This, along with the lack of in-game help or a tutorial, means you'll often have to consult the manual at first, though you probably won't mind the diversion since the manual is a lot of fun to read.

These are ultimately positive reviews too. I bet all or most of them say variations of this.

I mean, ignoring the fact that you are trying to quote IGN as a legit source of UI woes, that's completely irrelevant. Did YOU have problems with the game's UI? Or do you always shop IGN for your opinions?

 

[Roguey]

I mean, ignoring the fact that you are trying to quote IGN as a legit source of UI woes, that's completely irrelevant. Did YOU have problems with the game's UI? Or do you always shop IGN for your opinions?

I had no idea what I was looking at so I read the manual, yes.

 

[Axioms]

Modron Josh Sawyer's QA stories https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...te-march-expansion-thread.100006/post-4409223 These are people paid to test video games!

my expectation really was that players would test the boundaries of northern and eastern routes and either find a way through or make a strategic decision to follow the marker. what i actually saw in the released game was an unending stream of people who would die against deathclaws, cazadores, or super mutants, reload the game, and make the same attempt again in the exact same way. no variation in approach or selected gear, no use of chems or other consumables to raise their stats, no additional scouting for a better view of what was ahead. they would just repeatedly do the exact same thing and die again in the exact same way and eventually get furious.

^ this is the average player

This can't be fucking real, TESTERS are this bad?

He has to be exaggerating

Most people are dumb as hell. Just like in PDox games there is the 1% that breaks the game for achievements and WC and the 99% who either suck and never achieve anything or who follow step by step guides from the 1%.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I mean, ignoring the fact that you are trying to quote IGN as a legit source of UI woes, that's completely irrelevant. Did YOU have problems with the game's UI? Or do you always shop IGN for your opinions?

I had no idea what I was looking at so I read the manual, yes.

First time playing an RPG then I gather? I'm sure the manual is useful, then. But anyone mildly used to cRPGs should be able to pick it up easy.

 

[Roguey]

First time playing an RPG then I gather? I'm sure the manual is useful, then. But anyone mildly used to cRPGs should be able to pick it up easy.

No, I had played a number of RPGs before then. If a good number of people say the UI sucks, then it sucks. Troika listened to the criticisms. I hate the radial menu and don't care too much for the modern aesthetics, but ToEE's UI is very easy to understand. Bloodlines's is also intuitive and aesthetically appropriate. They just botched the first attempt.

 

[Maldoror]

Most people are dumb as hell. Just like in PDox games there is the 1% that breaks the game for achievements and WC and the 99% who either suck and never achieve anything or who follow step by step guides from the 1%.

I boot up Paradox games, play for a few hours, then console my way into deleting the opponent's armies, march into their lands and declare myself the victor.
Perfect power fantasy games.

 

[Maldoror]

First time playing an RPG then I gather? I'm sure the manual is useful, then. But anyone mildly used to cRPGs should be able to pick it up easy.

No, I had played a number of RPGs before then. If a good number of people say the UI sucks, then it sucks. Troika listened to the criticisms. I hate the radial menu and don't care too much for the modern aesthetics, but ToEE's UI is very easy to understand. Bloodlines's is also intuitive and aesthetically appropriate. They just botched the first attempt.

I found Temple of Elemental Evil's UI much more difficult to understand than Arcanum's, which felt intuitive and natural after a minute or two. The radial menu is an integral and core part of the UI, ergo shittier than Arcanum's.

 

[likash]

Videogame manuals were like foreplay. Anyone who didnt read them was seriously missing out on a fun part of the experience.

You forget the gaming magazines from the 90's that had presentation for every important game. We had a magazine called Level in Romania and i remember the presentation of Fallout 1 and Age of Empires. Back then when you got your hands on a game you'd play it for at least a month not like now when you are a torrent away from any game you want. It's not just nostalgia for those times when we were kids but also the fact that it was quite hard to procure games. I played Transport Tycoon Deluxe for the entire summer holiday of 1996 and then got my hands on Warcraft1&2 followed by Red Alert1. Those were the times.

I remember getting Fallout in 1998 by accident when a neighbor of mine got 2 games from his uncle and he was raving about a a shooter named Turok because he was a Quake fan. The other game was Fallout and he deleted it after 30 mins because he was getting killed by the rats outside of V13

 

[Axioms]

Most people are dumb as hell. Just like in PDox games there is the 1% that breaks the game for achievements and WC and the 99% who either suck and never achieve anything or who follow step by step guides from the 1%.

I boot up Paradox games, play for a few hours, then console my way into deleting the opponent's armies, march into their lands and declare myself the victor.
Perfect power fantasy games.

Doing silly shit with console commands is a totally legit strategy for Paradox games.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Almost everything about Arcanum is laughably bad, but when it's good, it's godlike.

 

[Maxie]

Almost everything about Arcanum is laughably bad, but when it's good, it's godlike.

the uninstaller is nice and straightforward

 

[Hobo Elf]

If a good number of people say the UI sucks, then it sucks.

No..? A good number of simpeltons had a flawed opinion. You're just searching for confirmation bias. And besides that, none of us would be here if we cared about the mass audience opinion on RPGs. I'm sorry but if you can't figure out Arcanums UI then maybe you really do belong in the special camp.

 

[Maldoror]

I read a presentation I gave in 1996 to other Interplay producers titled "How To Build A Motivated Team", based on my still-ongoing experience as producer of Fallout.

 

[Roguey]

If a good number of people say the UI sucks, then it sucks.

No..? A good number of simpeltons had a flawed opinion. You're just searching for confirmation bias. And besides that, none of us would be here if we cared about the mass audience opinion on RPGs. I'm sorry but if you can't figure out Arcanums UI then maybe you really do belong in the special camp.

You mean people like Chris Avellone?

 

[Hobo Elf]

If a good number of people say the UI sucks, then it sucks.

No..? A good number of simpeltons had a flawed opinion. You're just searching for confirmation bias. And besides that, none of us would be here if we cared about the mass audience opinion on RPGs. I'm sorry but if you can't figure out Arcanums UI then maybe you really do belong in the special camp.

You mean people like Chris Avellone?

Did Chris even like playing games or was it just a writing gig for him?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Cain and Boyarsky were struggling to figure out Fallout 1 UI in that anniversay stream.

 

[Roguey]

Did Chris even like playing games or was it just a writing gig for him?

He went back and completed Wasteland to get inspired to write for Wasteland 2 so he certainly likes games and has some capability.

 

[NecroLord]

Heard Tim is also a pretty good cook.

 

[Nano]

Another day of Codexers not realizing how out of touch they are.