Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[Roguey]

I mean, ignoring the fact that you are trying to quote IGN as a legit source of UI woes, that's completely irrelevant. Did YOU have problems with the game's UI? Or do you always shop IGN for your opinions?

I had no idea what I was looking at so I read the manual, yes.

 

[Axioms]

Modron Josh Sawyer's QA stories https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...te-march-expansion-thread.100006/post-4409223 These are people paid to test video games!

my expectation really was that players would test the boundaries of northern and eastern routes and either find a way through or make a strategic decision to follow the marker. what i actually saw in the released game was an unending stream of people who would die against deathclaws, cazadores, or super mutants, reload the game, and make the same attempt again in the exact same way. no variation in approach or selected gear, no use of chems or other consumables to raise their stats, no additional scouting for a better view of what was ahead. they would just repeatedly do the exact same thing and die again in the exact same way and eventually get furious.

^ this is the average player

This can't be fucking real, TESTERS are this bad?

He has to be exaggerating

Most people are dumb as hell. Just like in PDox games there is the 1% that breaks the game for achievements and WC and the 99% who either suck and never achieve anything or who follow step by step guides from the 1%.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I mean, ignoring the fact that you are trying to quote IGN as a legit source of UI woes, that's completely irrelevant. Did YOU have problems with the game's UI? Or do you always shop IGN for your opinions?

I had no idea what I was looking at so I read the manual, yes.

First time playing an RPG then I gather? I'm sure the manual is useful, then. But anyone mildly used to cRPGs should be able to pick it up easy.

 

[Roguey]

First time playing an RPG then I gather? I'm sure the manual is useful, then. But anyone mildly used to cRPGs should be able to pick it up easy.

No, I had played a number of RPGs before then. If a good number of people say the UI sucks, then it sucks. Troika listened to the criticisms. I hate the radial menu and don't care too much for the modern aesthetics, but ToEE's UI is very easy to understand. Bloodlines's is also intuitive and aesthetically appropriate. They just botched the first attempt.

 

[Maldoror]

Most people are dumb as hell. Just like in PDox games there is the 1% that breaks the game for achievements and WC and the 99% who either suck and never achieve anything or who follow step by step guides from the 1%.

I boot up Paradox games, play for a few hours, then console my way into deleting the opponent's armies, march into their lands and declare myself the victor.
Perfect power fantasy games.

 

[Maldoror]

First time playing an RPG then I gather? I'm sure the manual is useful, then. But anyone mildly used to cRPGs should be able to pick it up easy.

No, I had played a number of RPGs before then. If a good number of people say the UI sucks, then it sucks. Troika listened to the criticisms. I hate the radial menu and don't care too much for the modern aesthetics, but ToEE's UI is very easy to understand. Bloodlines's is also intuitive and aesthetically appropriate. They just botched the first attempt.

I found Temple of Elemental Evil's UI much more difficult to understand than Arcanum's, which felt intuitive and natural after a minute or two. The radial menu is an integral and core part of the UI, ergo shittier than Arcanum's.

 

[likash]

Videogame manuals were like foreplay. Anyone who didnt read them was seriously missing out on a fun part of the experience.

You forget the gaming magazines from the 90's that had presentation for every important game. We had a magazine called Level in Romania and i remember the presentation of Fallout 1 and Age of Empires. Back then when you got your hands on a game you'd play it for at least a month not like now when you are a torrent away from any game you want. It's not just nostalgia for those times when we were kids but also the fact that it was quite hard to procure games. I played Transport Tycoon Deluxe for the entire summer holiday of 1996 and then got my hands on Warcraft1&2 followed by Red Alert1. Those were the times.

I remember getting Fallout in 1998 by accident when a neighbor of mine got 2 games from his uncle and he was raving about a a shooter named Turok because he was a Quake fan. The other game was Fallout and he deleted it after 30 mins because he was getting killed by the rats outside of V13

 

[Axioms]

Most people are dumb as hell. Just like in PDox games there is the 1% that breaks the game for achievements and WC and the 99% who either suck and never achieve anything or who follow step by step guides from the 1%.

I boot up Paradox games, play for a few hours, then console my way into deleting the opponent's armies, march into their lands and declare myself the victor.
Perfect power fantasy games.

Doing silly shit with console commands is a totally legit strategy for Paradox games.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Almost everything about Arcanum is laughably bad, but when it's good, it's godlike.

 

[Maxie]

Almost everything about Arcanum is laughably bad, but when it's good, it's godlike.

the uninstaller is nice and straightforward

 

[Hobo Elf]

If a good number of people say the UI sucks, then it sucks.

No..? A good number of simpeltons had a flawed opinion. You're just searching for confirmation bias. And besides that, none of us would be here if we cared about the mass audience opinion on RPGs. I'm sorry but if you can't figure out Arcanums UI then maybe you really do belong in the special camp.

 

[Maldoror]

I read a presentation I gave in 1996 to other Interplay producers titled "How To Build A Motivated Team", based on my still-ongoing experience as producer of Fallout.

 

[Roguey]

If a good number of people say the UI sucks, then it sucks.

No..? A good number of simpeltons had a flawed opinion. You're just searching for confirmation bias. And besides that, none of us would be here if we cared about the mass audience opinion on RPGs. I'm sorry but if you can't figure out Arcanums UI then maybe you really do belong in the special camp.

You mean people like Chris Avellone?

 

[Hobo Elf]

If a good number of people say the UI sucks, then it sucks.

No..? A good number of simpeltons had a flawed opinion. You're just searching for confirmation bias. And besides that, none of us would be here if we cared about the mass audience opinion on RPGs. I'm sorry but if you can't figure out Arcanums UI then maybe you really do belong in the special camp.

You mean people like Chris Avellone?

Did Chris even like playing games or was it just a writing gig for him?

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Cain and Boyarsky were struggling to figure out Fallout 1 UI in that anniversay stream.

 

[Roguey]

Did Chris even like playing games or was it just a writing gig for him?

He went back and completed Wasteland to get inspired to write for Wasteland 2 so he certainly likes games and has some capability.

 

[NecroLord]

Heard Tim is also a pretty good cook.

 

[Nano]

Another day of Codexers not realizing how out of touch they are.

 

[Harthwain]

I no longer understand the argument you're trying to make.

You claimed that Avellone's failings were due to not reading the manual as it was essential to play the game [well] and blamed not reading manual on "the 360 generation". My response was that manuals stopped containing critical information long before "the 360 generation" came into play.

By the way, remember how you said that wolves "were designed to be tough to encourage you to use the damn map"*? The Arcanum's manuals says this:

One would be very wise to explore the entire crash site thoroughly for items, wolves to kill, and whatever clues are available as to why the blimp crashed.

Source: Page 98 - Arcanum Players Guide

Granted, it is advised to do so with a pre-made character, but still - it runs contrary to your claim that "wolves were designed to be tough" and that you're supposed to avoid the via fast travel. Because, another surprise; you don't get access to travel via the World Map until after you finish talking to an elf (again, I am saying what the manual advises almost verbatim!). Which means running into at least some enemies along the way (just like Avellone did).

It's also true that Arcanum has a very unintuitive UI and character system even compared to older games because Troika sucked.

I agree with the UI being unintuitive, even for RPG veterans. That said, I do apploud Troika's ambition, even though the execution was severly lacking.

*

 

[PapaPetro]

Heard Tim is also a pretty good cook.

Tim Cook?

 

[Roguey]

My response was that manuals stopped containing critical information long before "the 360 generation" came into play.

Arcanum's manual clearly has critical information though.

By the way, remember how you said that wolves "were designed to be tough to encourage you to use the damn map"*? The Arcanum's manuals says this:

I was not precise enough in my language. The wolves around the crash site are meant to be fought, and I don't recall Chris having much of a problem with those. It's the wolves at the exit of that area that are meant to be tough. If you're not built for combat, you're not getting past them.

 

[PapaPetro]

That said, I do apploud Troika's ambition, even though the execution was severly lacking.

They nailed it with the modal radial UI menuing in ToEE.
Sadly it was too late.

 

[Harthwain]

Arcanum's manual clearly has critical information though.

Then we must differ on what each one of us thinks the critical information is. I guess we can leave it at that.

I was not precise enough in my language. The wolves around the crash site are meant to be fought, and I don't recall Chris having a much of a problem with those. It's the wolves at the exit of that area that are meant to be tough. If you're not built for combat, you're not getting past them.

OK, that's true.

 

[CrunchyHemorrhoids]

Tim Cain, in his infinite "wisdom", decided that Arcanum needed to have a seamless world full of procedurally generated maps so that it was hypothetically possible to manually walk to every location.

And what was wrong with that, exactly?
I'd much rather today's studios go for that approach that makes the game world feel a lot more coherent and credible instead of the themepark approach modern bethesda games go with or the even more ubiquitous ubisoft design that fills any empty space/travel distance with shit for the player to fuck/loot/kill every 20 seconds.

 

[Roguey]

Tim Cain, in his infinite "wisdom", decided that Arcanum needed to have a seamless world full of procedurally generated maps so that it was hypothetically possible to manually walk to every location.

And what was wrong with that, exactly?
I'd much rather today's studios go for that approach that makes the game world feel a lot more coherent and credible instead of the themepark approach modern bethesda games go with or the even more ubiquitous ubisoft design that fills any empty space/travel distance with shit for the player to fuck/loot/kill every 20 seconds.

It was a detriment that added nothing. Fallout worked perfectly fine with the point to point map with abstracted travel. Arcanum could have been the same.