Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[Harthwain]

I no longer understand the argument you're trying to make.

You claimed that Avellone's failings were due to not reading the manual as it was essential to play the game [well] and blamed not reading manual on "the 360 generation". My response was that manuals stopped containing critical information long before "the 360 generation" came into play.

By the way, remember how you said that wolves "were designed to be tough to encourage you to use the damn map"*? The Arcanum's manuals says this:

One would be very wise to explore the entire crash site thoroughly for items, wolves to kill, and whatever clues are available as to why the blimp crashed.

Source: Page 98 - Arcanum Players Guide

Granted, it is advised to do so with a pre-made character, but still - it runs contrary to your claim that "wolves were designed to be tough" and that you're supposed to avoid the via fast travel. Because, another surprise; you don't get access to travel via the World Map until after you finish talking to an elf (again, I am saying what the manual advises almost verbatim!). Which means running into at least some enemies along the way (just like Avellone did).

It's also true that Arcanum has a very unintuitive UI and character system even compared to older games because Troika sucked.

I agree with the UI being unintuitive, even for RPG veterans. That said, I do apploud Troika's ambition, even though the execution was severly lacking.

*

 

[PapaPetro]

Heard Tim is also a pretty good cook.

Tim Cook?

 

[Roguey]

My response was that manuals stopped containing critical information long before "the 360 generation" came into play.

Arcanum's manual clearly has critical information though.

By the way, remember how you said that wolves "were designed to be tough to encourage you to use the damn map"*? The Arcanum's manuals says this:

I was not precise enough in my language. The wolves around the crash site are meant to be fought, and I don't recall Chris having much of a problem with those. It's the wolves at the exit of that area that are meant to be tough. If you're not built for combat, you're not getting past them.

 

[PapaPetro]

That said, I do apploud Troika's ambition, even though the execution was severly lacking.

They nailed it with the modal radial UI menuing in ToEE.
Sadly it was too late.

 

[Harthwain]

Arcanum's manual clearly has critical information though.

Then we must differ on what each one of us thinks the critical information is. I guess we can leave it at that.

I was not precise enough in my language. The wolves around the crash site are meant to be fought, and I don't recall Chris having a much of a problem with those. It's the wolves at the exit of that area that are meant to be tough. If you're not built for combat, you're not getting past them.

OK, that's true.

 

[CrunchyHemorrhoids]

Tim Cain, in his infinite "wisdom", decided that Arcanum needed to have a seamless world full of procedurally generated maps so that it was hypothetically possible to manually walk to every location.

And what was wrong with that, exactly?
I'd much rather today's studios go for that approach that makes the game world feel a lot more coherent and credible instead of the themepark approach modern bethesda games go with or the even more ubiquitous ubisoft design that fills any empty space/travel distance with shit for the player to fuck/loot/kill every 20 seconds.

 

[Roguey]

Tim Cain, in his infinite "wisdom", decided that Arcanum needed to have a seamless world full of procedurally generated maps so that it was hypothetically possible to manually walk to every location.

And what was wrong with that, exactly?
I'd much rather today's studios go for that approach that makes the game world feel a lot more coherent and credible instead of the themepark approach modern bethesda games go with or the even more ubiquitous ubisoft design that fills any empty space/travel distance with shit for the player to fuck/loot/kill every 20 seconds.

It was a detriment that added nothing. Fallout worked perfectly fine with the point to point map with abstracted travel. Arcanum could have been the same.

 

[CrunchyHemorrhoids]

It [...] added nothing.

For you. Obviously it added something for others.

It was a detriment

How so, exactly? Correct me if I'm wrong since it's been about 20 years since I last played it (and felt Arcanum was the best in the genre) but wasn't stopping in/exploring procgen zones entirely optional? Couldn't you fast travel to handcrafted areas exactly like in FO if you wanted to?

 

[Roguey]

How so, exactly?

For one thing it led Chris Avellone into having a lot of frustration getting out of the opening area. Also even if the entire thing was generated by an algorithm, it was still a waste of time. There's no real content in any of this empty space.

 

[Hagashager]

I think KotOR 2 did a good job informing the player of the game world without resorting to amnesia, by having a multitude of descriptive dialogue choices. Even if the player doesn't pick the line that says "Atris you fucking bitch, your gloating tone reminds me of the day you exiled me from the Jedi Order", they still learn something about the world by just reading it.

KotOR 2 is the avatar of how not to do dialogue. Repeatedly it gives you choices that you're not informed enough to make, because your character knows a bunch of shit that you the player don't.

Kotor 2 is weird. I recently finished it and noticed that you have to have played this game multiple times to really *get* the game. The protagonist- Meetra if you prefer, legitimately knows shit the player doesn't and the correct path through the game is one where Meetra speaks like she knows what she's talking about.

Alternatively, you can choose expository dialogues, but it's clear the narrative can't reconcile this. It's cool having expositoon as dialogue options, but actually choosing them is immersion breaking and only serves to clutter the conversation window on repeat playthroughs

The overwhelming bulk of dialogue options are just expository in nature. It's not that good either, it's stuff like, "Jack? You mean the Jack that did this long-winded important thing? That jack?"

 

[d1nolore]

It [...] added nothing.

For you. Obviously it added something for others.

It was a detriment

How so, exactly? Correct me if I'm wrong since it's been about 20 years since I last played it (and felt Arcanum was the best in the genre) but wasn't stopping in/exploring procgen zones entirely optional? Couldn't you fast travel to handcrafted areas exactly like in FO if you wanted to?

For the most part it was optional extra yes. Exploration could be done by world map. Only instance I specifically remember requiring exploration was the Stillwater giant. Might be a couple other small things too.

I thought the generated world was great and added to immersion making the game feel more alive. I don’t see a negative to it at all. I think Tim mentioned it being perhaps a mistake in terms of feature creep, an extra feature that wasn’t necessary which took time away from other aspects.

It could have been implemented better also making it more worthwhile.

 

[PapaPetro]

Tim Cain, in his infinite "wisdom", decided that Arcanum needed to have a seamless world full of procedurally generated maps so that it was hypothetically possible to manually walk to every location.

Also even if the entire thing was generated by an algorithm, it was still a waste of time. There's no real content in any of this empty space.

What would good procedural generated mapping look like in this context of isometric RPGs?
Like what to you would make it on par or even superlative to hand designed maps/encounters?

----------------------------

Come on Roguey you gotta have some ideas what you would like or would be the ideal for procedural generation; even if it is pie-in-the-sky fantastical/"unrealistic".

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Did Chris even like playing games or was it just a writing gig for him?

Chris Avellone liked DMing games, especially for the Champions superhero RPG:

"Essential Villainy: What Every Supervillain Needs - Character" by Chris Avellone in Dragon Magazine #207 July 1994
"For Truth and Justice: An Adventure Checklist for Superhero GMs" by Chris Avellone in Dragon Magazine #214 February 1995

 

[gurugeorge]

If a good number of people say the UI sucks, then it sucks.

No..? A good number of simpeltons had a flawed opinion. You're just searching for confirmation bias. And besides that, none of us would be here if we cared about the mass audience opinion on RPGs. I'm sorry but if you can't figure out Arcanums UI then maybe you really do belong in the special camp.

I think with something like a UI, you have to go with public opinion, because usability by the end-user is what a UI is supposed to be all about. It's not a matter of taste like some other aspects of the game might be.

 

[Beans00]

How so, exactly?

For one thing it led Chris Avellone into having a lot of frustration getting out of the opening area. Also even if the entire thing was generated by an algorithm, it was still a waste of time. There's no real content in any of this empty space.

I played arcanum when it came out, when I was 9. So I agree with you that it's a waste of content ant time, the empty space is completely pointless.

Believe it or not, as a 9 year old I actually spent around 10-15odd minutes walking from the landing site to shrouded hills since reading manuals wasn't something I was going to do. Anyways it was pretty obvious something was wrong so eventually I realized the fast travel button.


IDK if a grown man can't figure that out maybe he shouldn't be playing arcanum. I guess it's pointless content and the fast travel button could be marked more clearly but this is definitely a 'can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink' moment.

 

[Hobo Elf]

If a good number of people say the UI sucks, then it sucks.

No..? A good number of simpeltons had a flawed opinion. You're just searching for confirmation bias. And besides that, none of us would be here if we cared about the mass audience opinion on RPGs. I'm sorry but if you can't figure out Arcanums UI then maybe you really do belong in the special camp.

I think with something like a UI, you have to go with public opinion, because usability by the end-user is what a UI is supposed to be all about. It's not a matter of taste like some other aspects of the game might be.

While I get where you're coming from, I have to disagree. The general public opinion might be that it is obtuse, but to me it would seem to be that it's people not familiar with RPGs who are complaining about it (in which case just about any "real" RPG will be a challenge for them UI wise). It is understandable that it'd be difficult for them, it makes sense, but they aren't the target audience. Bit of a hyperbolic statement but do airplane cockpits have shit UIs because the general public can't use them, or is it functional for those who it is intended for? Of course airplanes aren't necessarily commercial products but again commercial products are also allowed to be targeted toward specific audiences and don't have to try and have mass appeal. I mean that much should be obvious to Codexers at least.

 

[Roguey]

The general public opinion might be that it is obtuse, but to me it would seem to be that it's people not familiar with RPGs who are complaining about it

I wouldn't say Chris Avellone is someone unfamiliar with RPGs.

 

[d1nolore]

If a good number of people say the UI sucks, then it sucks.

No..? A good number of simpeltons had a flawed opinion. You're just searching for confirmation bias. And besides that, none of us would be here if we cared about the mass audience opinion on RPGs. I'm sorry but if you can't figure out Arcanums UI then maybe you really do belong in the special camp.

I think with something like a UI, you have to go with public opinion, because usability by the end-user is what a UI is supposed to be all about. It's not a matter of taste like some other aspects of the game might be.

It’s important to be user friendly but not necessary to cater to the lowest common denominator. We are not talking about a bank app or gmail. Just build for your audience. Not all UIs should be uniform, they should be fitted to the game. Otherwise you get horrid trash like MMO UIs. Public opinion 25 years ago for RPGs was a much smaller pool than today with modern accessibility. You get lots of idiots giving negative reviews on Steam because games are too hard or they don’t understand mechanics, etc.

Arcanum’s UI was fine, sure they could improve it if they had done a sequel.

 

[d1nolore]

The general public opinion might be that it is obtuse, but to me it would seem to be that it's people not familiar with RPGs who are complaining about it

I wouldn't say Chris Avellone is someone unfamiliar with RPGs.

To be honest you’re just derailing an interesting thread into nonsense.

 

[NecroLord]

The general public opinion might be that it is obtuse, but to me it would seem to be that it's people not familiar with RPGs who are complaining about it

I wouldn't say Chris Avellone is someone unfamiliar with RPGs.

It was almost the same as when Tim and Leonard played Fallout after so many years.
Those wolves really kicked Avellone's ass.

 

[Roguey]

To be honest you’re just derailing an interesting thread into nonsense.

Can't forget this blast from the past that caused a great shitstorm:

they just shouldn't have a steep learning curve this is like fallout 1 character creation screen this
is horrible this is a horrible UI you may have played it I think it's hideous
everything on there that looks like a button is a button but they're all they all do different things I mean the
attributes move them up and down and the skills tag it and all the buttons at the top can change your age and gender and
race and but they look totally different than all the other buttons and this is just a really bad UI part of the reason
is we didn't have a UI designer on fallout UI was done by whatever designer and artists have to be free that week
but still I would completely change how I designed this today you'd think I'd
learn from this mistake but here's Arcanum UI which is even worse
it may look prettier but it's got more attributes it has more skills and other laser pointer doesn't work but like the
buttons on the top right change what that panel below it displays and that panel itself has buttons that display
what that change what it displays so rather than putting less skills and less spells and less technical skills what I
did is I just hid them so it didn't look complicated so I didn't scare Sierra who
was publishing it but still it was a very complicated game for people to get into and again I wouldn't make I
wouldn't make such a complex front-end for a RPG today

tl;dr/w "Fallout and Arcanum UIs are shit and I'd never make anything like that again" -- Tim Cain

 

[Camel]

A bit late but I love both Vera Lynn's We'll Meet Again and The Ink Spot's Maybe. I unironically love those old songs and they are the most enjoyable aspect of modern Fallouts to me.

I Don't Want to Set the World on Fire by the The Ink Spots is the perfect song for setting the mood for any Fallout. It's a great find for the Fallout 3 teaser.

It doesn't surprise me Lynn's song was outside of their budget and I wonder how much it costed them to even get one song at all in the game. Especially since they haven't had licensing problems like other games have. Rockstar spends half of GTA's budget on song licensing alone, for instance.

Lol what? Rockstar spends $100 million on song licensing alone?

The cost of music licensing varies depending on the size of the game company and the music business, but it typically costs between $600 and $1,500. Some music licenses also scale up based on the number of game copies that are distributed. For example, a license for a game with 3,000 copies distributed may cost $300, but a license for a game with 100,000 copies distributed may cost $1,000.

 

[whocares]

I will not eat the bugs. I will not live in a pod. I will not use 2FA.

 

[PapaPetro]

I

Did Chris even like playing games or was it just a writing gig for him?

Chris Avellone liked DMing games, especially for the Champions superhero RPG:

"Essential Villainy: What Every Supervillain Needs - Character" by Chris Avellone in Dragon Magazine #207 July 1994
"For Truth and Justice: An Adventure Checklist for Superhero GMs" by Chris Avellone in Dragon Magazine #214 February 1995

I wonder if he ever DM'd a session of D&D Immortal Rules...

 

[Shadenuat]

What a great kick into modern uis by accident. As by his words, f1 ui was made not by designer, but by designer/artist. That is why buttons are varied and it all looks visually appealing and is like part of game world instead of shallow skyrim bullshit of today. Artist is not afraid of some embellishments for extra aesthetics and we know these old ui in games worked, even if "buttohs r different1!". Our eye likes variety and noble materials like metal stone wood. F1 has some of cleaniest and laconic chargens ever.
Arcanum has lot of beauty in it, but i agree it is worse due to all submenus and multiple screens during chargen etc.