Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[Harthwain]

I never understood the people who found it difficult or obtuse.

Avellone himself didn't get past the wolves in Arcanum, so what we are even talking about?

Edit:

Sorry, bro. He had to re-do a character, because his first one kept dying. So it proves my point.

 

[Nano]

I had the weirdest dream today. I was on some kind of a school trip as a kid, and Tim Cain and his boyfriend were our tour guides. We were in a hotel, and the only way to exit my room was through Tim Cain's room. I tried going out, but Tim and his bf were banging each other, and Tim jumped up and scolded me that I entered his room. I explained that there's no other way but through his my room. So he agreed that it was okay then, and then offered to show me an early Fallout 1 build with GURPS in it, in exchange for a bit of anal sex.

Why can't I have dreams like this?

 

[Maxie]

Another day of Cain:

He says he will bring on Jason Anderson.

JASON....Friggin' .... Anderson....

I mean, has that man ever been interviewed? On camera, like ever?

One of the most brilliant and private developers ever IMO.
I tried to get him on Matt Chat years ago (around 2015) and failed miserably. Just wasnt interested.
Didn't even wanna answer questions for Da Codex

Boy, if that happens. Cain's YT will go down in history

your puppy worship of fat hasbeens is so cringeworthy that you're legally obligated to kill yourself. sorry bro i dont make the rules

 

[Roguey]

Sorry, bro. He had to re-do a character, because his first one kept dying. So it proves my point.

He kept the character. He just couldn't figure out how to travel on the world map so he kept dying to wolves he didn't even need to fight and who were designed to be tough to encourage you to use the damn map.

 

[Harthwain]

He kept the character.

He had to change the stats and whatsonot though. To me that's pretty much the same as restarting.

He just couldn't figure out how to travel on the world map so he kept dying to wolves he didn't even need to fight and who were designed to be tough to encourage you to use the damn map.

And why exactly we expect players who are less experienced in the ways of RPGs to know better than the legend of the genre?

 

[Roguey]

He had to change the stats and whatsonot though.

He realized with all the fighting he was doing that he needed to put a point into combat skill, yes.

And why exactly we expect players who are less experienced in the ways of RPGs to know better than the legend of the genre?

Avellone went in blind to a game that was made back when you were expected to read the manual from cover to cover while installing. "Manuals are bad design" came with the 360 generation.

 

[Harthwain]

Avellone went in blind to a game that was made back when you were expected to read the manual from cover to cover while installing. "Manuals are bad design" came with the 360 generation.

I am not really buying this argument for 2001. More like 90s'. But it does add weight to Arcanum being difficult and obtuse for new players, especially in the context of Fallouts (both of which came out well before Arcanum!) where you entered the world map after leaving an area (and had to finish The Temple of Trials).

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Avellone went in blind to a game that was made back when you were expected to read the manual from cover to cover while installing.

I didn't know Arcanum was made before 1995.

 

[Roguey]

Avellone went in blind to a game that was made back when you were expected to read the manual from cover to cover while installing. "Manuals are bad design" came with the 360 generation.

I am not really buying this argument for 2001. More like 90s'.

Arcanum's manual is over 180 pages. Of course you're supposed to read it. Temple of Elemental Evil's is over 150. Bloodlines has a 50 page manual. Morrowind had a 50 page manual. Knights of the Old Republic had a 70 page manual. They weren't spending money on all that paper for the fun of it.

But it does add weight to Arcanum being difficult and obtuse for new players, especially in the context of Fallouts (both of which came out well before Arcanum!) where you entered the world map after leaving an area (and had to finish The Temple of Trials).

Tim Cain, in his infinite "wisdom", decided that Arcanum needed to have a seamless world full of procedurally generated maps so that it was hypothetically possible to manually walk to every location.

 

[Harthwain]

Arcanum's manual is over 180 pages. Of course you're supposed to read it. Temple of Elemental Evil's is over 150. Bloodlines has a 50 page manual. Morrowind had a 50 page manual. Knights of the Old Republic had a 70 page manual. They weren't spending money on all that paper for the fun of it.

The amount of paper doesn't really change the fact that 2001 wasn't really the period of time when "you were expected to read the manual from cover to cover while installing". In fact, your examples prove that Arcanum was an outlier, both because other manuals had less pages and because most of the games you mentioned (if not all) I was able to play just fine blind.

I mean, Total War: Napoleon also has a manual with 43 pages. Do you think I really need it? Because I didn't need it for neither Shogun 1 nor Medieval 1. Now compare that to games where manuals contained some ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL pieces of information (including copyright protection).

 

[agris]

Tim Cain, in his infinite "wisdom", decided that Arcanum needed to have a seamless world full of procedurally generated maps so that it was hypothetically possible to manually walk to every location.

man's lucky he didn't get de-ownered after that, eh?

 

[Roguey]

The amount of paper doesn't really change the fact that 2001 wasn't really the period of time when "you were expected to read the manual from cover to cover while installing". In fact, your examples prove that Arcanum was an outlier, both because other manuals had less pages and because most of the games you mentioned (if not all) I was able to play just fine blind.

I mean, Total War: Napoleon also has a manual with 43 pages. Do you think I really need it? Because I didn't need it for neither Shogun 1 nor Medieval 1.

Arcanum was a hardcore computer role playing game, not some dumb first person shooter.

You don't need to read manuals for D&D or D&D-derived games if you're already familiar with the system. Anyone new to D&D had to read the manual for Baldur's Gate (or any first D&D game they play).

 

[Melcar]

Those kind of long manuals (+100 pages) are only good if they mostly contain lore information. Besides the basics, one learns how to play the game, well, by playing it, and it should be designed in a way that it teaches the player (without handholding).

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

The amount of paper doesn't really change the fact that 2001 wasn't really the period of time when "you were expected to read the manual from cover to cover while installing". In fact, your examples prove that Arcanum was an outlier, both because other manuals had less pages and because most of the games you mentioned (if not all) I was able to play just fine blind.

I mean, Total War: Napoleon also has a manual with 43 pages. Do you think I really need it? Because I didn't need it for neither Shogun 1 nor Medieval 1.

Arcanum was a hardcore computer role playing game, not some dumb first person shooter.

You don't need to read manuals for D&D or D&D-derived games if you're already familiar with the system. Anyone new to D&D had to read the manual for Baldur's Gate (or any first D&D game they play).

Dude, you're on fire in this thread. One stupid post after another. I jumped into BG2 without having even heard of TTRPGs and DND. Reading spells, abilities and various tooltips was more than enough. And I was kinda stupid too, I was just 12 and completed the game on Normal. It was the same experience for a lot of youngsters, I loaned BG2 to friends and they had the exact same experience.

But it sounds like you needed some special assistance. How hard was it to select all and click on a mob? Do you need a manual on how to close your mouth when you breath?

 

[Roguey]

But it sounds like you needed some special assistance. How hard was it to select all and click on a mob?

I read the manual. But comprehending the effects of all those spells was difficult and I faced my fair share of brickwalls on account of my lack of knowledge. I did complete it though.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

But it sounds like you needed some special assistance. How hard was it to select all and click on a mob?

I read the manual. But comprehending the effects of all those spells was difficult and I faced my fair share of brickwalls on account of my lack of knowledge. I did complete it though.

Oh my lord.

Please, stop assuming your experience was normal. You have real, medical autism. There's no other option here.

 

[Maxie]

the only manual ive ever bothered to skim through was war3 coz it had samwise didier's cute drawings

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Far Cry Blood Dragon (jokingly): Jump if you wish to Jump. To look around, look around. Moving allows you to go into many directions.
Roguey: woah this is useful!

 

[Roguey]

But it sounds like you needed some special assistance. How hard was it to select all and click on a mob?

I read the manual. But comprehending the effects of all those spells was difficult and I faced my fair share of brickwalls on account of my lack of knowledge. I did complete it though.

Oh my lord.

Please, stop assuming your experience was normal. You have real, medical autism. There's no other option here.

People who are good at games are the outliers. Most people are worse than I am.

Modron Josh Sawyer's QA stories https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...te-march-expansion-thread.100006/post-4409223 These are people paid to test video games!

my expectation really was that players would test the boundaries of northern and eastern routes and either find a way through or make a strategic decision to follow the marker. what i actually saw in the released game was an unending stream of people who would die against deathclaws, cazadores, or super mutants, reload the game, and make the same attempt again in the exact same way. no variation in approach or selected gear, no use of chems or other consumables to raise their stats, no additional scouting for a better view of what was ahead. they would just repeatedly do the exact same thing and die again in the exact same way and eventually get furious.

^ this is the average player

 

[Butter]

People who are good at games are the outliers. Most people are worse than I am.

@Modron Josh Sawyer's QA stories https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...te-march-expansion-thread.100006/post-4409223 These are people paid to test video games!

Your testers should cover the same range of skill levels as your target demographic. If you want noobs to be able to play your game, you need noob testers.

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

A bit late but I love both Vera Lynn's We'll Meet Again and The Ink Spot's Maybe. I unironically love those old songs and they are the most enjoyable aspect of modern Fallouts to me. It doesn't surprise me Lynn's song was outside of their budget and I wonder how much it costed them to even get one song at all in the game. Especially since they haven't had licensing problems like other games have. Rockstar spends half of GTA's budget on song licensing alone, for instance.

 

[Modron]

If you want noobs to be able to play your game, you need noob testers.

The danger to catering to noobs is turning your game into a snoozefest for everyone else, granted that is what difficulty levels are for and even the infinity engine games had them.

 

[Butter]

If you want noobs to be able to play your game, you need noob testers.

The danger to catering to noobs is turning your game into a snoozefest for everyone else, granted that is what difficulty levels are for and even the infinity engine games had them.

Agreed. You have to decide as a developer if it's worth catering to all skill levels or not. FromSoft have done well for themselves by not catering to retards and journalists. The Pillars of Eternity games do a good job of catering to all skill levels (Deadifre after some post-launch patching). A lot of AAA games are for scrubs only, and that's a valid choice too.

 

[Sigourn]

The amount of Codexers that feel the need to consistently reiterate to other Codexers that they didn't like The Outer Worlds is astonishing. That game must be more beloved here than anywhere else on the web!

There's a massive hateboner for The Outer Worlds which is perfectly understandable in circles like Reddit, where people hyped it up as a Bethesda-killer and thus Bethesda fanboys jumped to criticism after the game released.

But one would think TOW would have been simply forgotten by the Codex, as it wasn't even a popular game to warrant hate (it's not a Skyrim that determines the direction of the RPG gaming industry).

 

[Cat Headed Eagle]

Well, I keep forgetting the game even existed. I'm only reminded of it when even when during your seasonal sales it's as expensive as a non discounted AA/AAA game.