Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[Modron]

"If playtesters find your feature useless or boring, you should throw it out".

All games should be linear because one playtester was super autistic and walked in a circle 58 times instead of going left.

 

[Hammer Of The Heretics]

Hasbro is the toy company that owns Wizards of the Coast, and thus D&D. Presumably their permission would be required to release the source code for ToEE.

 

[Butter]

Fuck permission. Just email me and accidentally include it as an attachment. I'll swear you meant to send me your wasteland salad recipe.

 

[deuxhero]

I am now convinced that players should only get dumped with lore that pertains to you in some way. It's ok if an NPC tells you about a conflict that you're in the middle of, for example. Stories that give you a deeper understanding of the world you're in should be gathered by environmental storytelling and ingame books. Just like in real life, NPC's shouldn't care too much about affairs that don't affect them directly. Unless the NPC is literally a historian I guess, but even then they shouldn't assume you care about their stories, just like other NPC's wouldn't.

Take the chance to get a little education. And I have a few history books in here. Help yourself. You're welcome to them. No point in being part of history if you're too ignorant to understand it.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Just like in real life, NPC's shouldn't care too much about affairs that don't affect them directly

If you visit the Ukraine thread, you'll be amazed how many NPCs from Poland/Brazil/etc care.

 

[NecroLord]

Have you seen any other gamedev-man being so generous

Yes, John Carmack released the code for his id games, for example. Among other old guys releasing source codes and whatnot. That is far more generous than shitposting on youtube.

Tim should learn from Carmack a bit.

 

[Roguey]

Tim should learn from Carmack a bit.

Carmack had the legal right to do so. I already mentioned that Cain says he doesn't have the legal right to put them out there.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

I already mentioned that Cain says he doesn't have the legal right to put them out there.

How do you get "ownership" of the code without the right to distribute it? Sounds more like he has a perpetual license, not ownership.
But I think he has every right, he just wants to get paid for it.

 

[Roguey]

How do you get "ownership" of the code without the right to distribute it? Sounds more like he has a perpetual license, not ownership.
But I think he has every right, he just wants to get paid for it.

Demand Tim upload the contract, surely that's legal.

 

[Infinitron]

I talk about job interview questions, both ones I like to ask and ones I have been asked.

This video is related to my one on press interview questions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CNtL...

 

[StrongBelwas]

Been on plenty of job interviews on both side of the table.
Assumes design and code questions to be solved will be asked, doesn't really to art interviews, don't ask him about that.
Sample question is they are working on a fantasy game, design a theoretical crafting system. How exactly are recipes and ingredients found. If they can't find a problem in their own crafting system, that is a red flag.
Has asked them to create a list of classes for an MMO, the benefits and drawbacks of class systems for an MMO. Asked someone who named WoW as a favorite game to make a solo instance that teaches how a class works.
Doesn't really like puzzle code, just wants to see how people think. Sample code he's asked people to create is psudeocode on the whiteboard for reversing a sentence. Just wants to see them walk through the steps, asks them to think aloud. Knows some people hates that and don't think it's a realistic situation but at some point he needs to see how some people do the work even if your demos and resume look good.
At Interplay, hired a 'programmer', who massively lied about his portfolio and after being hired on Cain's recommendation he turned out to be useless, was a major nuisance in Cain's last years at Interplay. Could see him trying to do stuff and he didn't know even basic math, couldn't rotate sprites or use sin/cine.
Interviewed at Valve once for a design job, they told him there wouldn't be programming questions, he walks in and the first thing they asking are coding questions. Flunked it. Hadn't coded in years, they asked him to write code for running a control panel on an elevator, halfway through he realized he had messed up and had to restart, ran out of time. Was told despite doing very well on the design questions, failed the programming questions meant he didn't get the job as they weren't hiring designers . Lunch was all business questions for whatever reason, receptionist annoyed he didn't finish the lunch.
Carbine was four different interviews with the founders, the programmers, the producer, and then NC Soft employees.
Likes to ask people what the largest team they worked with. Wants to know how they can handle the changing dynamics as teams change. If it's a small team, how many different roles did you do, if it was a large team, how did you answer to and how many people did you manage.
If they went to college, what was their favorite class and inquire about the class they mention. Ask self taught people what their favorite topic was and why it was fun to learn.
If they worked on a project or demo, what did they specifically do on it, and what was the hardest thing they had to implement. Did you have to make decisions your team disagreed with? Had a growing issue with people who did not want to be managed nor manage others.
Tries to meet people halfway when he's a manager. Tries not to give ultimatum when he interviews for a job, wouldn't respond well to them if he was the manager.
Loves asking what hobby do you have that has directly influenced your work. Talked to people who cook who based their crafting system on cooking, hikers who used that to influence level design.
Toward the end of the interview, asks why they want to work for this particular company. Knows some people don't like that question, but likes to hear interest in the company. Not that important, but loves to hear the response.
Takes note of the response to the final question if they have any more questions. Lets him know what they are looking forward to.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

I talk about job interview questions, both ones I like to ask and ones I have been asked.

This video is related to my one on press interview questions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CNtL...

1) "Design a crafting system for a single player RPG."

My answer would've been that I haven't seen a good SP RPG with crafting in my entire life, or the RPG was good, but the crafting was completely optional and didn't work together with the rest of the game. So I don't know how to.

2) "Design a classless MMORPG."

Why? People fall into roles in MMOs. So a classless system would have to have "undocumented" classes anyway. Why avoid the unavoidable? Just make classes.
In classless single player RPGs, you end up being able to do everything and this is fine. This isn't fine for MMOs, where the end-goal is to be dependent on others, which creates jolly cooperation.

3) "Design a quest/solo dungeon that teaches a class to use a new ability in WoW"

I actually don't know how to teach people, nor do I think it's a problem, because others can fill in, as long as I can design cool stuff.
I once designed an alternative paladin class for WoW in my head, the crux of which was this: you roll a level 1 paladin, but why would the Light immediately grant you powers?
Instead, you play as a paladin with weak abilities that don't require mana, because you have none. And you STRUGGLE to prove your worth to the Light through dedication and PAIN.

And every level-up, after level 5, there's a 20% chance the Light will notice you. This can create interesting situations where you go "well I'm level 12 and I'm still not a real paladin... fuck it, I give up, I'm not worthy of the Light" and the whole guild starts sending you those images "guy stops digging meme" and encourages you, and then everyone gets together to push you through to level 13, because on your own you can't do it with your shitty abilities. And then you ding and you still didn't get it, and now the entire guild goes "FUUUUUCK". The entire guild gets emotionally invested and engages with the problem. This is my definition of a fun MMO design. But on the question of how to teach players the rules of becoming a paladin other than by text, I have no idea. Nor do I think it's a problem.

Tim would've probably kicked me out after the first answer.

 

[Roguey]

The story about the Interplay programmer who couldn't do his job and yet remained there for years is hilarious and explains quite a bit about how Interplay turned out the way it did.

Likewise, the story about how Valve hasn't been hiring any designers since at least 2011 also explains quite a bit why they no longer make games.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

about how Valve hasn't been hiring any designers since at least 2011 also explains quite a bit why they no longer make games.

Why they don't make games probably has more to do with lack of leadership and their chaotic work environment. As you probably know, they have no hierarchy and anyone can do anything. This means nobody has to finish their passion projects once the passion runs out. This is extremely typical of indies without iron self-discipline.
It's like making an army without generals and wondering why no wars are being won. This simply doesn't work very well.

As to why they didn't hire him when he couldn't write simple code is because there's a disdain among coders towards game designers, who are seen as useless/inferior. A programmer often thinks he can program and design, and that a designer more often than not can't do anything at all. What's weird is their assumption that he can't code. Like I said before, he's probably on the level of Swen. He's no Carmack, because he doesn't understand low level stuff, but he coded an entire game, so what else do they want is beyond me. Not all programming has to be done in assembly.

 

[Roguey]

Why they don't make games probably has more to do with lack of leadership and their chaotic work environment. As you probably know, they have no hierarchy and anyone can do anything. This means nobody has to finish their passion projects once the passion runs out. This is extremely typical of indies without iron self-discipline.

Ah,Tim and his toys that he drops as soon as he gets to the parts he doesn't want to do.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Tim and his toys that he drops

What did he drop? As far as I'm aware, he's able to stick to his pre-commitments. Valve could use more people like him.

 

[Roguey]

What did he drop? As far as I'm aware, he's able to stick to his pre-commitments. Valve could use more people like him.

I'm talking about all his small prototypes that he talks about making in his semi-retirement that he says he'll never finish or release.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

What did he drop? As far as I'm aware, he's able to stick to his pre-commitments. Valve could use more people like him.

I'm talking about all his small prototypes that he talks about making in his semi-retirement that he says he'll never finish or release.

IIRC he stated his goal was to relearn Unity, not to make entire games, so goal accomplished.

 

[Viata]

Making prototypes is good. Sometimes some good idea sucks when you implement it, so I don't consider that as "dropping it" at the same level as what happens at Valve.

 

[Daedalos]

Love these videoes, Tim might misfire on some projects, like TOW, but his wisdom is great and has great points.
It kind of makes me hopeful for TOW 2 and beyond in terms of lessons learned, eventho I know Tim likes how TOW turned out and Leonard probably less so.
Tim is more hands-off for TOW2, so we'll see.

He got some great points in his video about speech checks, balancing that, and generally paths of the "talker" social route in RPGs.
It's incredibly dumb to pass speech checks, just because my stat on my screen says so, even if totally doesnt fit the situation, the NPC or whatever.

I like his methods of passing a speech check along with something else that makes sense to the narrative and the story, evidence, research, tlaking to other people, something else you need to pass a speech check other than just having a high stat on "paper"

So many RPG devs are dogshit at implementing a good speech/peaceful/diplomatic path in cRPGs, because so much focus is on combat and stealth.
And yea I'm a MAJOR league storyfaggot, so I'm obviously biased towards a speech path, but still, just make some cool shit

And for the record, TOW was bad, not because the underlying story, design and thoughts behind it were bad, but because they were just undercooked, and needed more time, money, budget and whatever to get finished.
That goes for combat and everything else too. It screamed indie/AA but had potential not realized.
All of this resulted in a pretty mediocre game, with a few high points along the way.

The DLCs were almost better than the main game, because they had to to reiterate and stuff on it.

 

[Infinitron]

I talk about what characteristics I like to see in my team, things that not only make the game better but make working with them on the game better.

 

[StrongBelwas]

There have been people Cain has worked with in the past that he made a good game with he probably wouldn't want to work with again. Also vice versa. Not really Cain's guide to people you should look to work for, just what works best for him.
Five things, not in order, Cain avoids giving things in order because people argue about the order.
Likes working with smart people. Someone accused Cain of only wanting to work with college people, he strongly disagrees. Tech director at Interplay, large amount of Fallout and Troika team didn't go to college. Likes working with people who can think of solutions, plenty of people have thought of better ideas than Cain.
Likes proactive people, can notice there is a problem or inefficient process, and brings it up, and offering to be the person to fix it. Different from being smart, as he's had plenty of people who noticed a problem and asked how to solve it, and then some people who just didn't bother. Once did a performance review for someone who wanted a promotion, and told them they were not remotely proactive enough, told them they were the kind of person who would sit in a burning room and do nothing until Cain told him the room was on fire.
Likes working with passionate people, he knows it has become a negative adjective in the industry, but would rather would with a good person who really cares than a great person who doesn't really care. Passion shows in the work they do, you have probably played a game that is technically fine but makes you feel nothing, Cain chalks that up to passion. There have been games that didn't sell or review well, but he enjoyed making them because of the passionate team. Soul draining to work with a team that doesn't care.
Honesty, after having learned that people in the industry will lie to him. Just wants people to tell him things, they don't think a game element is fun, they think there needs to be a priority shift. People push stuff not because it's good, but because a friend worked on it, people saying they like something they hate just to get on Cain's good side. On the same game, Cain had someone lie to his face about something and when confronted about it, the worker told Cain he was told to lie to Cain, Cain doesn't really think that is justifiable, didn't really talk to him for 7 months. On that project, had told people to let him know if something changed in an area because it was important. Came in one morning to play it, found a change, went to the source control to find who changed it, went to their manager and asked what happened. Manager was told to put it in, was told by their manager not to tell Cain. Considered not telling Cain to not count as a lie. Told the manager he would now check the source control every day to see if everything is as it should be, and if he noticed another unexpected change, there would be a problem.
Communication is the final thing, likes to work with communicative people. Not the same as honesty because Cain has worked with people who don't lie, but also don't say anything. They don't like something Cain proposes, have a better idea, don't communicate it. Biggest frustration with these people is that they don't think of themselves as a problem, if there is an issue, they just say they didn't say anything. People who say something negative and thus giving Cain something to springboard on is more respectful to him. If you're introverted, go to your lead and ask them to bring it up. Cain has also created ways for anonymous suggestions.
TL;DR Cain's ideal team is smart, proactive, passionate, honest, communicative people.

 

[Viata]

Cain's ideal team is smart, proactive, passionate, honest, communicative people

Oh, yeah, what a unique ideal team he wants.

 

[BlackheartXIII]

6:38: Cain on passionless games:

I'm sure you've all played games that are technically fine but the just don't do anything for you, you're like , I don't understand, this game doesn't have bugs and these quest are working and I made a character that had attributes I like but why am I feeling absolutely nothing about this game.

The Outer Worlds in a nutshell.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

There have been people Cain has worked with in the past that he made a good game with he probably wouldn't want to work with again. Also vice versa. Not really Cain's guide to people you should look to work for, just what works best for him.
Five things, not in order, Cain avoids giving things in order because people argue about the order.
Likes working with smart people. Someone accused Cain of only wanting to work with college people, he strongly disagrees. Tech director at Interplay, large amount of Fallout and Troika team didn't go to college. Likes working with people who can think of solutions, plenty of people have thought of better ideas than Cain.
Likes proactive people, can notice there is a problem or inefficient process, and brings it up, and offering to be the person to fix it. Different from being smart, as he's had plenty of people who noticed a problem and asked how to solve it, and then some people who just didn't bother. Once did a performance review for someone who wanted a promotion, and told them they were not remotely proactive enough, told them they were the kind of person who would sit in a burning room and do nothing until Cain told him the room was on fire.
Likes working with passionate people, he knows it has become a negative adjective in the industry, but would rather would with a good person who really cares than a great person who doesn't really care. Passion shows in the work they do, you have probably played a game that is technically fine but makes you feel nothing, Cain chalks that up to passion. There have been games that didn't sell or review well, but he enjoyed making them because of the passionate team. Soul draining to work with a team that doesn't care.
Honesty, after having learned that people in the industry will lie to him. Just wants people to tell him things, they don't think a game element is fun, they think there needs to be a priority shift. People push stuff not because it's good, but because a friend worked on it, people saying they like something they hate just to get on Cain's good side. On the same game, Cain had someone lie to his face about something and when confronted about it, the worker told Cain he was told to lie to Cain, Cain doesn't really think that is justifiable, didn't really talk to him for 7 months. On that project, had told people to let him know if something changed in an area because it was important. Came in one morning to play it, found a change, went to the source control of find who changed it, went to their manager and asked what happened. Manager was told to put it in, was told by their manager not to tell Cain. Considered not telling Cain to not count as a lie. Told the manager he would now check the source control every day to see if everything is as it should be, and if he noticed another unexpected change, there would be a problem.
Communication is the final thing, likes to work with communicative people. Not the same as honesty because Cain has worked with people who don't lie, but also don't say anything. They don't like something Cain proposes, have a better idea, don't communicate it. Biggest frustration with these people is that they don't think of themselves as a problem, if there is an issue, they just say they didn't say anything. People who say something negative and thus giving Cain something to springboard on is more respectful to him. If you're introverted, go to your lead and ask them to bring it up. Cain has also created ways for anonymous suggestions.
TL;DR Cain's ideal team is smart, proactive, passionate, honest, communicative people.

So all in all, he's got a problem with the American culture of silently fitting in (lest they be bullied into fitting in) and passive aggressiveness instead of open confrontation.
All he needs is to hire Slavic people in the future. Solved.