Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[goregasm]

Limitation breeds innovation. It's far easier to make games today, yet that also makes it far easier to have a high output of trash as the skills required to make a game is quite low now.

Well put. I'm a tradesman/craftsman as a career, having worked on everything from shiny new skyscrapers in America to ancient churches in Saint Denis, we can build entire neighborhoods in weeks nowadays, where the skill involved in building one mortise and tenon joint, an extremely old, labor intensive, but strong method of framing is lost on 70% of people I work with.

New and old methods in my field result in complete projects, one way ends in completion, perhaps newer methods end up with projects with no "soul" the other older way breeds ingenuity and typically results in a sort of beauty, through a more laborious process.

Folks who take on projects with a "less is more" approach tend to take them on because they want to create them.

With all the tools at hand to make the process more efficient, it's usually about completing a project rather than creating something, at least in my field.

 

[agris]

It's certainly curious how people made better games with worse tools. I guess it's true you can make "more" game with better tools, but that content isn't actually better.

not at all. barriers to entry filter for talent, vision, and drive.

 

[deama]

So all in all, he's got a problem with the American culture of silently fitting in (lest they be bullied into fitting in) and passive aggressiveness instead of open confrontation.
All he needs is to hire Slavic people in the future. Solved.

My experience after living with three Russians is that they are very passive aggressive if they are transplanted into a civilized environment. So Tim better move to some backerwater shithole in Eastern Europe, maybe that way he'll see some Slav chimpout.

What about icelanders/northern-europeans? I heard they're so blunt that they will tell you you're fat to your face and think it's a favour they're doing for you.

 

[deama]

It's certainly curious how people made better games with worse tools. I guess it's true you can make "more" game with better tools, but that content isn't actually better.

Possibly the idea is that due to using worse tools, you're more often put into that "zone" or thought process wherein you have to keep thinking of what you're doing, so as to not make an obvious mistake etc...
Due to this, it gives ample opportunity to re-evaluate certain things you're doing, e.g writing dialogue, you're constantly confronted by it, forcing you to think about all of it more and more, at which point you may come up with a better idea for the dialogue.

 

[__scribbles__]

What about icelanders/northern-europeans? I heard they're so blunt that they will tell you you're fat to your face and think it's a favour they're doing for you.

Somewhat. Here in Sweden, people will tell you straightforwardly what they don't like about you but only if you're a friend or family. Never seen somebody talk like that to a person they don't know or are only acquaintances with. Haven't been to Denmark or Norway for extended periods of time, but they don't seem much different.

Never been to eastern Europe but the people from there that I've met have been more in line with what you describe.

 

[Infinitron]

I talk about the continuum of player agency in games, including what I like to include in my own.

 

[ds]

Quest-critical NPCs have a far better solution than either invulnerability or Tim's cop out of preventing direct access to them (which you can't use all the time without it feeling artificial):

Player agency doesn't mean that your choices can't result in a game over. Of course ideally the game adapts and still lets you go forward if at all possible.

 

[Roguey]

Bizarro-Codexer in the comments

in the past 2 weeks I went from playing Disco Elysium (err rather, trying to play it, it instead, plays the player, and is garbage) to

Torment: Tides of Numenera

the contrast between the two is EXTREME

loving Tides

I was a high-tier backer and then when it finally released, was upset at some of the decisions and on top of always waiting for RPGs to have their bugs and stuff worked out, have put off to playing until now - the writing is top-notch and they understanding agency and behavior and everything in a way almost never seen

I was super excited for Disco Elysium when it came out, and told many people about it, hyping it without having played it - it is truly horrible, nihilistic sophomoric vapid (also using shock value and having no sense of good storytelling or how to build anything of a world or anything) with no sense of good writing, of personality or behavior, anything worthwhile

Disco lacking agency is true.

 

[Old Hans]

I never laughed so hard during a game than when I tried to drag the hanging corpse to the refrigerator during my disco playthrough or failing to steal the raincoat from the convenance store. that game was hilarious

 

[NecroLord]

Quest-critical NPCs have a far better solution than either invulnerability or Tim's cop out of preventing direct access to them (which you can't use all the time without it feeling artificial):

Player agency doesn't mean that your choices can't result in a game over. Of course ideally the game adapts and still lets you go forward if at all possible.

Fallout and Arcanum.
You can kill Main Quest critical NPCs and still progress through the game, though Fallout 2 springs to mind in that you can't kill your fellow tribe members. But why would you do that in the first place? It's monstrous!
Morrowind has the issue of not allowing different quest progression if you do indeed kill quest critical NPCs. Instead, you are hit with the "With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed" message, which has been rightfully turned into a rather hilarious meme.

 

[__scribbles__]

Morrowind has the issue of not allowing different quest progression if you do indeed kill quest critical NPCs. Instead, you are hit with the "With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed" message, which has been rightfully turned into a rather hilarious meme.

What Morrowind did right is that you can actually finish the game in spite of getting the message.

 

[NecroLord]

Morrowind is awesome.

 

[Roguey]

You can kill Main Quest critical NPCs and still progress through the game, though Fallout 2 springs to mind in that you can't kill your fellow tribe members. But why would you do that in the first place? It's monstrous!

The Overseer is immortal because he has to be there for the ending where you do kill him if you have negative karma or bloody mess.

 

[Diggfinger]

I talk about the balance between story and game design...and what that even means.

The Ultimate Non-Question has hereby been asked!
We are back to Year Zero

Tim goes into Buddism and says;
'You un-asked the question'

 

[Infinitron]

You can kill Main Quest critical NPCs and still progress through the game, though Fallout 2 springs to mind in that you can't kill your fellow tribe members. But why would you do that in the first place? It's monstrous!

The Overseer is immortal because he has to be there for the ending where you do kill him if you have negative karma or bloody mess.

Did they ever create death animations for him at that stage?

 

[Roguey]

Tim sounds like he has the 'vid, hope it doesn't get worse.

 

[NecroLord]

Tim sounds like he has the 'vid, hope it doesn't get worse.

He'll survive.

 

[StrongBelwas]

Lot of people try to get in the industry through friends or family, or get help for their children through friends and family. A woman Cain went to high school 30 years ago tried to get him to help. At the end of it all, it's not personal, it's just business.
Worked somewhere that really needed a type of specialist, had a friend who was that specialist, recommended him, it did not work out for either side, Cain's friend did not handle the situation well, the company did not handle him well, he quit, and Cain's boss there told him it would be a while before he ever trusted another recommendation from him.
The second story is someone he worked with at another company as a programmer had some arrangement with the company that no one could look at his code. Code would arrive to Cain's team pre compiled. Ten years later, Cain is at another company and the person asks him to have lunch; He's applying for a job at that company and is hoping Cain could put in a good word. They wanted him to take a programmer test, he wanted to skip that by having Cain vouch for him. Cain recalled two instances at the previous company where he had issues with his code and told him he would have to take the test. The other guy insisted on Cain vouching for him and got mad and left when he won't.
Third story, someone wanted to join a team he was on as a designer. Cain had worked with him before very distantly. Cain said tentatively yes, but there is a design test and you have to get the lead designer's approval. He took the test, the lead knew he and Cain were friends. The Lead looked at it, went to Cain and told him it was not very good, Cain looked at it and agreed it was not very good. Unfinished answers, rambling answers, some design answers showed instant flaws. Lead Designer was glad Cain agreed because he was not going to extend an offer. Sometime later the guy called Cain asking why he wasn't getting an offer, and when told the lead designer wouldn't go for it, asked Cain if he could override him. He left angry when Cain told him how bad that would look.
If you have a game development job, people will ask you to help them get a job, and they will not be willing to put any effort into it, no classes, no demos.
'It's not personal, it's business' is a common phrase people associate with a business about to do something very shady, but Cain understands separating the two. There are friends in the industry he would not want to work with because of their different philosophies.
Some people will take it personal when you tell them it just doesn't make sense for you to work for them, your skillset or your work practices aren't a match, they will say you should find an accommodation for them, and Cain can accept that but only to a point. If you go to a RPG studio, all of your resume is action games, and you response to their design test is what you would see in action games, you probably aren't a fit.
Businesses do nasty things, but some decisions are just practical, and if you bring friendship into it, you're going to cause problems.
Cain had very highly placed friends at a company he flubbed the test for, but he moved on instead of trying to get them to pull strings.
Sometimes Cain regrets failing interviews, but other times something bad happens at a company he didn't join later on and he wonders if he dodged a bullet.
Interview questions can work both ways and give you an indication if the company is not a good fit for you.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Feargus' 3-year old toddler cashing in his Obsidian paycheck: "right on, dude!"

 

[StrongBelwas]

VATS isn't what they called it, but it's what everyone calls it now.
GURPS had a feature called Called Shots at the risk of a penalty to hit at potential advantage of doing more damage or inflicting status effects.
Fallout's GURP combat code was pretty modular, written by Cain himself.
Cain had made a GURPS character creation that had a lot of modules that were external text files you could read in. Wrote the combat code the same way. Game kept separate from game mechanics, mechanics were GURPS. Combat was turn based engine that called information from the modules supporting the mechanics.
After the switch to SPECIAL, Cain just extracted the modules and put them somewhere else. Now they had to make their own system. Cain wanted to keep the called shots mechanic as the sprites were 3d models extracted into sprites, and the called shot system had the wireframe models, which were cool and Cain wanted to keep.
Wanted to keep called shots because it made combat more tactical, and differentiated weapons and armor from each other. Wanted to leave option the possibility of perks altering Called Shots. Called Shots gave Monsters/Weapons/Armor/Perks/Skills/Traits have more differentiation.
It benefited players by allowing clever players to take advantage of all of those differences. If you wanted to ignore it and just brute force it, it was possible.
Whole point of BB Gun was shooting people in the eye, but one of the producers realized you could punch people in the head and consistently knock people out with your Unarmed high enough. Could even do this to robots, which Cain found amusing enough he decided to keep it in.

 

[Quillon]

I talk about the continuum of player agency in games, including what I like to include in my own.

lmao @10:50

There’s another interesting wrinkle to the conversation with Parvati, when she opens up. In most RPGs like The Outer Worlds, players are granted a wide range of responses to every situation. You can be nice, you can be an asshole, you can be indifferent. In this moment, when Parvati chooses to be vulnerable, the game explicitly limits your range of responses.

Apparently this^ is what Tim hates the most.

 

[gurugeorge]

I sometimes enjoy his videos, he's obviously smart and has a lot of experience. But it's sometimes difficult to take him seriously given how fucking crap TOW is.

 

[NecroLord]

I sometimes enjoy his videos, he's obviously smart and has a lot of experience. But it's sometimes difficult to take him seriously given how fucking crap TOW is.

He is definitely running out of subjects to talk about, I think.
He is a treasure trove of information about the gaming industry pre 90s and over. Was such an inventive man with great ideas, now merely a husk...
The Fallout and Troika glory days are gone, replaced with TOW...

 

[Roguey]

Apparently this^ is what Tim hates the most.

Ol' Tim will carve out exceptions when it suits him. People typically aren't 100% consistent in their beliefs or stated preferences.

 

[__scribbles__]

I talk about the differences between games made by committee and games made by collaboration.