Cain on Games - Tim Cain's new YouTube channel

[Russia is over. The end.]

What did he drop? As far as I'm aware, he's able to stick to his pre-commitments. Valve could use more people like him.

I'm talking about all his small prototypes that he talks about making in his semi-retirement that he says he'll never finish or release.

IIRC he stated his goal was to relearn Unity, not to make entire games, so goal accomplished.

 

[Viata]

Making prototypes is good. Sometimes some good idea sucks when you implement it, so I don't consider that as "dropping it" at the same level as what happens at Valve.

 

[Daedalos]

Love these videoes, Tim might misfire on some projects, like TOW, but his wisdom is great and has great points.
It kind of makes me hopeful for TOW 2 and beyond in terms of lessons learned, eventho I know Tim likes how TOW turned out and Leonard probably less so.
Tim is more hands-off for TOW2, so we'll see.

He got some great points in his video about speech checks, balancing that, and generally paths of the "talker" social route in RPGs.
It's incredibly dumb to pass speech checks, just because my stat on my screen says so, even if totally doesnt fit the situation, the NPC or whatever.

I like his methods of passing a speech check along with something else that makes sense to the narrative and the story, evidence, research, tlaking to other people, something else you need to pass a speech check other than just having a high stat on "paper"

So many RPG devs are dogshit at implementing a good speech/peaceful/diplomatic path in cRPGs, because so much focus is on combat and stealth.
And yea I'm a MAJOR league storyfaggot, so I'm obviously biased towards a speech path, but still, just make some cool shit

And for the record, TOW was bad, not because the underlying story, design and thoughts behind it were bad, but because they were just undercooked, and needed more time, money, budget and whatever to get finished.
That goes for combat and everything else too. It screamed indie/AA but had potential not realized.
All of this resulted in a pretty mediocre game, with a few high points along the way.

The DLCs were almost better than the main game, because they had to to reiterate and stuff on it.

 

[Infinitron]

I talk about what characteristics I like to see in my team, things that not only make the game better but make working with them on the game better.

 

[StrongBelwas]

There have been people Cain has worked with in the past that he made a good game with he probably wouldn't want to work with again. Also vice versa. Not really Cain's guide to people you should look to work for, just what works best for him.
Five things, not in order, Cain avoids giving things in order because people argue about the order.
Likes working with smart people. Someone accused Cain of only wanting to work with college people, he strongly disagrees. Tech director at Interplay, large amount of Fallout and Troika team didn't go to college. Likes working with people who can think of solutions, plenty of people have thought of better ideas than Cain.
Likes proactive people, can notice there is a problem or inefficient process, and brings it up, and offering to be the person to fix it. Different from being smart, as he's had plenty of people who noticed a problem and asked how to solve it, and then some people who just didn't bother. Once did a performance review for someone who wanted a promotion, and told them they were not remotely proactive enough, told them they were the kind of person who would sit in a burning room and do nothing until Cain told him the room was on fire.
Likes working with passionate people, he knows it has become a negative adjective in the industry, but would rather would with a good person who really cares than a great person who doesn't really care. Passion shows in the work they do, you have probably played a game that is technically fine but makes you feel nothing, Cain chalks that up to passion. There have been games that didn't sell or review well, but he enjoyed making them because of the passionate team. Soul draining to work with a team that doesn't care.
Honesty, after having learned that people in the industry will lie to him. Just wants people to tell him things, they don't think a game element is fun, they think there needs to be a priority shift. People push stuff not because it's good, but because a friend worked on it, people saying they like something they hate just to get on Cain's good side. On the same game, Cain had someone lie to his face about something and when confronted about it, the worker told Cain he was told to lie to Cain, Cain doesn't really think that is justifiable, didn't really talk to him for 7 months. On that project, had told people to let him know if something changed in an area because it was important. Came in one morning to play it, found a change, went to the source control to find who changed it, went to their manager and asked what happened. Manager was told to put it in, was told by their manager not to tell Cain. Considered not telling Cain to not count as a lie. Told the manager he would now check the source control every day to see if everything is as it should be, and if he noticed another unexpected change, there would be a problem.
Communication is the final thing, likes to work with communicative people. Not the same as honesty because Cain has worked with people who don't lie, but also don't say anything. They don't like something Cain proposes, have a better idea, don't communicate it. Biggest frustration with these people is that they don't think of themselves as a problem, if there is an issue, they just say they didn't say anything. People who say something negative and thus giving Cain something to springboard on is more respectful to him. If you're introverted, go to your lead and ask them to bring it up. Cain has also created ways for anonymous suggestions.
TL;DR Cain's ideal team is smart, proactive, passionate, honest, communicative people.

 

[Viata]

Cain's ideal team is smart, proactive, passionate, honest, communicative people

Oh, yeah, what a unique ideal team he wants.

 

[BlackheartXIII]

6:38: Cain on passionless games:

I'm sure you've all played games that are technically fine but the just don't do anything for you, you're like , I don't understand, this game doesn't have bugs and these quest are working and I made a character that had attributes I like but why am I feeling absolutely nothing about this game.

The Outer Worlds in a nutshell.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

There have been people Cain has worked with in the past that he made a good game with he probably wouldn't want to work with again. Also vice versa. Not really Cain's guide to people you should look to work for, just what works best for him.
Five things, not in order, Cain avoids giving things in order because people argue about the order.
Likes working with smart people. Someone accused Cain of only wanting to work with college people, he strongly disagrees. Tech director at Interplay, large amount of Fallout and Troika team didn't go to college. Likes working with people who can think of solutions, plenty of people have thought of better ideas than Cain.
Likes proactive people, can notice there is a problem or inefficient process, and brings it up, and offering to be the person to fix it. Different from being smart, as he's had plenty of people who noticed a problem and asked how to solve it, and then some people who just didn't bother. Once did a performance review for someone who wanted a promotion, and told them they were not remotely proactive enough, told them they were the kind of person who would sit in a burning room and do nothing until Cain told him the room was on fire.
Likes working with passionate people, he knows it has become a negative adjective in the industry, but would rather would with a good person who really cares than a great person who doesn't really care. Passion shows in the work they do, you have probably played a game that is technically fine but makes you feel nothing, Cain chalks that up to passion. There have been games that didn't sell or review well, but he enjoyed making them because of the passionate team. Soul draining to work with a team that doesn't care.
Honesty, after having learned that people in the industry will lie to him. Just wants people to tell him things, they don't think a game element is fun, they think there needs to be a priority shift. People push stuff not because it's good, but because a friend worked on it, people saying they like something they hate just to get on Cain's good side. On the same game, Cain had someone lie to his face about something and when confronted about it, the worker told Cain he was told to lie to Cain, Cain doesn't really think that is justifiable, didn't really talk to him for 7 months. On that project, had told people to let him know if something changed in an area because it was important. Came in one morning to play it, found a change, went to the source control of find who changed it, went to their manager and asked what happened. Manager was told to put it in, was told by their manager not to tell Cain. Considered not telling Cain to not count as a lie. Told the manager he would now check the source control every day to see if everything is as it should be, and if he noticed another unexpected change, there would be a problem.
Communication is the final thing, likes to work with communicative people. Not the same as honesty because Cain has worked with people who don't lie, but also don't say anything. They don't like something Cain proposes, have a better idea, don't communicate it. Biggest frustration with these people is that they don't think of themselves as a problem, if there is an issue, they just say they didn't say anything. People who say something negative and thus giving Cain something to springboard on is more respectful to him. If you're introverted, go to your lead and ask them to bring it up. Cain has also created ways for anonymous suggestions.
TL;DR Cain's ideal team is smart, proactive, passionate, honest, communicative people.

So all in all, he's got a problem with the American culture of silently fitting in (lest they be bullied into fitting in) and passive aggressiveness instead of open confrontation.
All he needs is to hire Slavic people in the future. Solved.

 

[Roguey]

Cain is seething over the Patel approach to work.

I had someone lie to my face about something and when I discovered it later, and I called him out on it, he said "I was told
to lie to you" and I was very confused at why he thought that made it better. You know, I said "If I tell you to murder
someone you're not going to do it, so I don't know why you think being told by someone above you in the chain to lie
to my face is something that's going to get you off the hook later." It ended up with me basically not talking to him for
several months. I don't know if he noticed I don't know if he cared. I do know that there were things that came up that we were supposed to work together that I just went "Can't, I'm not available," and didn't say anything else.

More of that passive aggressive behavior from Tim.

A similar thing that happened on the same project: I told people to let me know if something changed in an area because it was an important area of the game. I come in the morning and play the game every morning. Came in one morning and that thing was changed and I was like "what?" I mean I have access to perforce, saw who changed it. Went to the person who is in
charge of managing those things and said "What happened here?" I didn't want to go talk to the person who put it in, I wanted to talk to the person who scheduled it to go in and I said "What happened here?" and he goes "Oh, you noticed that?" Like of course I noticed it, and he said "Well I was told to put it in," and it was again by someone above both of us and I was like "But you were told to let me know" and he goes "He told me not to tell you that" and I'm like... and he said "So I didn't lie to you," so he thought not telling me something was not as bad as lying to me about it, and keep in mind this is something I was going to notice and it was going to come up, and again it was a complete trust breaker and I even told him "I understand that you are in a bad situation, that somebody above both of us told you not to tell me something that you know you should have told me but I hope you know this means going forward, I don't trust you" and I mean he was broken, and I was like I had to tell him, he asked me "What do you mean by that?" and I said "Every day I'm going to look at perforce check-ins on anything that you're responsible for scheduling and I'm going to confirm that it's something that I knew was on the schedule and that was done the way I had approved of and if I find a problem again, you and I are going to have issues. So I don't care what anyone else tells you, if you put something in that's not what I said, you and I are going to talk and if you tell someone that you're scheduling to put something in that isn't what I said, we're going to have a problem" and that put him in a very bad position but I didn't know how else to trust him going forward.

I get the feeling both of these incidents were from The Outer Worlds? More of that Feargus/Parker meddling.

What can they do when the choice is to either risk getting fired/reprimanded or get a stern talking to from their project lead who can't actually fire them considering the owner has their back for doing what they told them to do?

 

[Viata]

"I was told to lie to you"

What an amazing environment to work. No wonder Obsidian keeps releasing shitty game after shitty game.

 

[0sacred]

So all in all, he's got a problem with the American culture of silently fitting in (lest they be bullied into fitting in) and passive aggressiveness instead of open confrontation.
All he needs is to hire Slavic people in the future. Solved.

My experience after living with three Russians is that they are very passive aggressive if they are transplanted into a civilized environment. So Tim better move to some backerwater shithole in Eastern Europe, maybe that way he'll see some Slav chimpout.

 

[Alienman]

he knows it has become a negative adjective in the industry

What? I guess that explains why so many games feels so plain. No passion allowed.

 

[Butter]

I get the feeling both of these incidents were from The Outer Worlds? More of that Feargus/Parker meddling.

What can they do when the choice is to either risk getting fired/reprimanded or get a stern talking to from their project lead who can't actually fire them considering the owner has their back for doing what they told them to do?

To be fair, these anecdotes could easily have been from Carbine, given how dysfunctional it apparently was.

 

[NecroLord]

Tech director at Interplay, large amount of Fallout and Troika team didn't go to college.

Probably a major reason why their games are so awesome.
College educamashun doesn't necessarily make one smart or creative.
Just take a look today...

 

[Roguey]

I get the feeling both of these incidents were from The Outer Worlds? More of that Feargus/Parker meddling.

What can they do when the choice is to either risk getting fired/reprimanded or get a stern talking to from their project lead who can't actually fire them considering the owner has their back for doing what they told them to do?

To be fair, these anecdotes could easily have been from Carbine, given how dysfunctional it apparently was.

Possibly, but my recollection is that the biggest issue there was with the art director whose attitude was "fuck you, we're doing things my way", not someone above them trying to be sneaky. Additionally I'm not sure if an MMO could be considered to have an "important area of the game."

 

[The Wall]

Tim Cain is simultaneously Genius and Retard

 

[StrongBelwas]

He mentioned using Perforce for source control on Outer Worlds/Obsidian in the Evolution of Source Control video, but no mention of what they used at Carbine one way or the other.

 

[NecroLord]

Tim Cain is simultaneously Genius and Retard

I think he got retarded the more he aged.
Fallout and Troika days - Pure Genius and creativity.
Anything after that - Retard, lacking vision and direction.

 

[ds]

Tim Cain is simultaneously Genius and Retard

I think he got retarded the more he aged.
Fallout and Troika days - Pure Genius and creativity.
Anything after that - Retard, lacking vision and direction.

The fate of most creative people. You either retire as a legend or see yourself become mediocre.

 

[Infinitron]

I talk about multiple quest solutions using an example from Fallout. I explain how some solutions are systemic, arising from the existing game rules and needing zero effort from the developers to create.

 

[ds]

That's some grade A autism at the end, being annoyed at giving money being implemented inconsistently for different NPCs. Guess what, real people are not consistent robots. Different conversations doing the same thing differently makes them feel more organic even if the differences are not intentional but the result of them being implemented by different people.

 

[Butter]

That's some grade A autism at the end, being annoyed at giving money being implemented inconsistently for different NPCs. Guess what, real people are not consistent robots. Different conversations doing the same thing differently makes them feel more organic even if the differences are not intentional but the result of them being implemented by different people.

Also gender parity autism. Garl should've reacted exactly the same way to his mother as to his father, not because it makes sense for a person to do that, but for B A L A N C E.

 

[StrongBelwas]

If you're going to work on tools, you should know disciplines besides your own.
Cain learned how to make dialogue tools better from writing his own dialogue and reading the dialogue of others, having an understanding how textures are done can help art programmers.
If you try using the mainstream game engines, at some point you'll run into some annoying process that makes you wonder if anyone in that company has actually made a commercial video game with that engine.
Going from Fallout to Arcanum, they hade to remake all of their tools. During Fallout, he had not made a single level. But he had heard a lot complaints about the process of making levels. It could be unclear where walls and tiles matched up, you'd put them down, realize they don't quite connect, and than have to find another tile that connects, a tedious process. He implemented a spray tile function for Arcanum that would automatically transition the tiles to connect correctly and select random variations of those tiles. Made creating the base of the maps trivial. Than implemented being able to quickly create walls for buildings, and add doors or swap them out in the building.
For Fallout didn't make the Scripting system, but fixed a lot of bugs related to them. For Arcanum, before anyone wrote a script, designed SockMonkey. Tried to make it very difficult to create infinite loops and generally made the script to be restrictive, but underestimated the ability of some scripters to create bugs. Generally though, the bugs with the scripting remained in the semantic (Script just isn't doing what it was supposed to do, instead of crashing the game) area, saving them a lot of time.
Saw a lot of bugs in Fallout's dialogue, as well as wasted memory. Lots of similar sounding strings that had to be translated or stored, which led to Tim creating generated dialogue for Arcanum. Could quickly implement things like bribing and made localization easier.
These tools helped considerably to make it possible to make Arcanum in the same time as Fallout with a third of the team size.
TL;DR Good tools are made by knowing who uses the tool and how they use it, ideally use it yourself. Build the tool that lets them do common things quickly. Design the tool so it reduces the amount of mistakes they could possibly make, or the memory they can use. People will find a way to make mistakes, but you can keep the issues down.

 

[Roguey]

It's certainly curious how people made better games with worse tools. I guess it's true you can make "more" game with better tools, but that content isn't actually better.

 

[Viata]

Limitation breeds innovation. It's far easier to make games today, yet that also makes it far easier to have a high output of trash as the skills required to make a game is quite low now.