Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

CD Projekt's Cyberpunk 2077 Update 2.0 + Phantom Liberty Expansion Thread

tritosine2k

Erudite
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
1,399
That Sweeney bit (which is from this article) is as unspecific as it could be but even that isn't about baking lighting to megatextures (or nanite vertices or whatever), it is about streaming data from a server for games that are too big to fit in a console's storage (i mention consoles because he was referring to console generations previously), something that is made more clear from a bit you didn't copy/paste:

Fortnite's mainstream success in spite of being entirely dependent on a decent Internet connection has only confirmed for Sweeney that this will be the future of video games. "I think that more and more games will go in that direction in the future, and that even games that we look at as singleplayer might in the future have so much content and variety that parts of the experience are streamed in dynamically in the background as you're playing, and you won't even notice."

(emphasis mine)

This has nothing to do with megatextures or even rendering and if anything they can already add it in UE5's new world partition system to download partition data per cell as you approach the cells form a distance. But this isn't anything revolutionary, in fact i wouldn't be surprised if some MMOs already did something like that for years now.

Burden of proof is on you and let me guess you can't show mesmerizing realtime lighting stuff extending to hundreds of meters and kilometers without running into cascades and cutting off abruptly. And nvidia is cooking numbers.




Yeah, CDPR should have just scanned the actual Night City instead of modelling it by hand. Would have saved them millions.

Couldn't they have built set models of Night City and scanned those?
Wouldn't it even be cheaper?

Could be worth it, if they can store it reliably and it'd be perfectly converged for time of day and account for distance and occlusion better. But now it's a bigger deal to sell some realtime Moonshot kool-aid and you're supposed to believe how they can light up a city and such in realtime.

stop.png

how about you fuck off with your authority power trip
 
Joined
Nov 21, 2014
Messages
410
I didn't feel like waiting till 2023 for the next expansion, so I figured I'd start a second playthrough and go through some of the side content slowly. Started as a Nomad, ran over the sheriff and the guards with my car. Even though I hadn't even met Jackie at this point, he randomly spawned in my car and began spraying the locals. For some reason, the guards didn't open fire and just walked around yelling as I crashed into them one by one. Thought I'd found a pretty cool exploit when I picked up the rare loot they dropped, only to realize I must be level 30 to use any of them.



Managed to reproduce it for posterity. Also, the driving mechanics have improved considerably as you can see.
 
Last edited:

Gerrard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
11,837
The stock will bounce back, as it did back when the game was originally delayed in the spring. Its sales are a more concrete indication of its success or failure, and 13+ million units, even on just the PC, is by no means a number that indicates a failed game.
The stock did not drop because the game was delayed in spring. That was a market crash.

Nah it will recover.
Any minute now.

FI0pvpA.png
ml45lj4.png

:hero:

I'm still laughing at gamblers who bought CDPR stock days before CP2077 premiere.
I'm laughing at people who bought it at ~170 expecting that it will surely bounce back up when they release the Witcher 3 nextgen update.
:betrayed:
 

Bad Sector

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
2,213
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Couldn't they have built set models of Night City and scanned those?
Wouldn't it even be cheaper?

Unlikely for the whole city, AFAIK the best scanners available commercially (at least those you can actually buy) can give around 0.25mm of detail (some can scan in more detail but that is to reduce the noise in the output which is still limited at that resolution). Even if we assume that the largest buildings are at most 100 meter tall (the shortest height for something to be called a skyscraper according to Wikipedia) and a scale down 1:100 (i.e. one meter), that would only give you at most ~2.5cm in-game detail or around 38% of the detail you'd get in regular 256x256 textures as used in Quake 3. Also even that 0.25cm detail in reality would need to be sculpted somehow and mistakes simply are way more costly in physical form than in digital form where you can undo, etc.

3D scanning can be very useful for small objects and for capturing materials with better accuracy than what photographs can give you.

But it also isn't "for free" either, consider what the people working on Vanishing of Ethan Carter went through - and while some tools have improved, they haven't improved to the point where you can just scan and drop an item into an engine with minimal work.

Burden of proof is on you and let me guess you can't show mesmerizing realtime lighting stuff extending to hundreds of meters and kilometers without running into cascades and cutting off abruptly.

Burden of proof for what (and why it'd be on me?)? Also realtime lighting extending to kilometers is something that even classic deferred shading can do since world scale is irrelevant for it as it is all done in screen space.
 

tritosine2k

Erudite
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
1,399
Couldn't they have built set models of Night City and scanned those?
Wouldn't it even be cheaper?

Burden of proof for what (and why it'd be on me?)? Also realtime lighting extending to kilometers is something that even classic deferred shading can do since world scale is irrelevant for it as it is all done in screen space.
all done in screen space
How many samples per pixel to match photogrammetry or texture space shading at >200meter? That just happens to be available on demand? And why would that ever work on consumer cards?

In other SAD news someone is still mad about not getting his GRAND car game (like this glamorous dynamic lighting stuff even allows that :) ) :
123123c3jcv.jpg


stay mad Gerrard
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
I didn't feel like waiting till 2023 for the next expansion, so I figured I'd start a second playthrough and go through some of the side content slowly. Started as a Nomad, ran over the sheriff and the guards with my car. Even though I hadn't even met Jackie at this point, he randomly spawned in my car and began spraying the locals. For some reason, the guards didn't open fire and just walked around yelling as I crashed into them one by one. Thought I'd found a pretty cool exploit when I picked up the rare loot they dropped, only to realize I must be level 30 to use any of them.



Managed to reproduce it for posterity. Also, the driving mechanics have improved considerably as you can see.

Half a billion dollars spent for this.
 

Bad Sector

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
2,213
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
How many samples per pixel to match photogrammetry

Photogrammetry is irrelevant here, you are confusing two separate things. Photogrammetry is used to scan models, the models however can (and really most often are) be lit by the engine.

or texture space shading

Texture space shading is orthogonal to deferred shading. You can have one, the other or both.

at >200meter?

Distance is irrelevant as deferred shading computations are done in screen space so as long as you have the correct values in the g-buffer you can perform shading on them.

That just happens to be available on demand?

Why on demand?

And why would that ever work on consumer cards?

What wouldn't? That stuff is already available and working on consumer cards.
 

tritosine2k

Erudite
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
1,399
How many samples per pixel to match photogrammetry



What wouldn't? That stuff is already available and working on consumer cards.



Why is this a feature if it "works" ? Neither photogrammetry shimmers and megatexture+streaming enables photogrammetry for example of a complete racetrack.


serbian guy made this in 5 day on bicycle with ghetto go-pro setup.
 
Last edited:

Bad Sector

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
2,213
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Why is this a feature if it "works" ? Neither photogrammetry shimmers and megatexture+streaming enables photogrammetry for example of a complete racetrack.

Dude, you are jumping from point to point without making any sort of coherent connections between them and then add in unrelated stuff. Stop for a moment and read the entire discussion from the moment i replied (and to what i replied) up to this point and try to realize that you are writing makes little sense.

serbian guy made this in 5 day on bicycle with ghetto go-pro setup.

Sure, but this doesn't have much to do with anything discussed so far except perhaps something that is in your head that you haven't bothered to put it in clear and coherent writing.

My entire point with these replies was that i think it is very unlikely for UE6 specifically to go towards network streaming baked virtual geometry since pretty much everything in the industry nowadays goes more and more towards realtime processing, from the developers' own goals (working in realtime is faster even when making the game) to the hardware itself (HW accelerated raytracing, etc) to pretty much all the research focus around games (see all the presentations in GDC, etc being increasingly about realtime approaches). Yes, you can do it and yes it is technically possible to scan 3D scenes, precalculate volumes/points/voxels/whatever with lighting and stream data that requires very little processing power GPU-wise, this is nothing new, people did it even back in the 90s - it is how the qsplat algorithm for streaming and rendering point clouds was invented - but my point wasn't if it was technically feasible, it was about what i think UE6 would do in the future based not only on UE's but also the entire industry trajectory so far.
 

tritosine2k

Erudite
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
1,399
entire industry trajectory so far.

https://twitter.com/UnrealEngine/status/1521485488024166407

they put this out today, it's full of remote and streaming references

https://www.theregister.com/2022/05/03/intel_siru_innovations/?td=keepreading-btm
Intel acquires graphics tech biz founded by ex-AMD, Qualcomm engineers
The Twitter account for Intel's graphics team had a slightly less buzzword-filled description of the areas it expects help from Siru: mobility-as-a-Service, advanced driver assistance systems, gaming, and hyperscale datacenters, which are run by large companies like Meta and Amazon.

doesn't seem like they are hell bent on supplying you with the discrete graphics "fix". And that's no use anyway for the average consumer because this "temporal reconstruction" stuff was hardly ever a solution.
 
Last edited:

Bad Sector

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
2,213
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
they put this out today, it's full of remote and streaming references

There is no "remote" reference anywhere in the tweet or the linked page and the only reference to streaming is in a linked PDF about Google Stadia-like streaming and the existing (for UE4 even) plugin to stream data assets - from what i can tell - based on world position. Network streaming of data assets is old news for UE games.

doesn't seem like they are hell bent on supplying you with the discrete graphics "fix". And that's no use anyway for the average consumer because this "temporal reconstruction" stuff was hardly ever a solution.

What does that have to do with anything? What the hell does even "temporal reconstruction" has to do with anything in the discussion?

Dude, i give up, it is technically impossible to communicate with you.
 

Bad Sector

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Messages
2,213
Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
at this point I rate the probability that tritosine is a chat-bot made by Carmack at above 40%

I think AI-generated text makes more sense, e.g. this is from here (bold text is a bit of text tritosine2k wrote):

chatbot said:
RTX doesn't hit any sensible framerate at sensible resolution in unreal5 "thanks to" dynamic lighting and that's with cascaded shadows stuff so it's already sub-optimal even below 48 fps and not as smooth distance gradiation as RAGE. Not to mention temporal "reconstruction" .

I'd love to be proven wrong but there are games using AA (f.i. in Skyrim the sky appears to be rendered in AA even though no AA is applied)

So I agree but I'm saying that I doubt the game developers are trying to emulate that for a reason because it looks like shit. I can't tell if the shadow distance is caused by some strange lighting mode but I can assure you it's not what game developers are trying to do.

But I agree it looks shit. Because it's not what game developers are trying to do. Games are trying to render all the details, which results in a different lighting mode that looks like crap if you render all the details at a higher resolution.

So the next step is to try and emulate more details with different lighting modes. It's just a problem that most game developers are not able to come up with a more "advanced" lighting model that looks even better at lower resolutions.

or

How many samples per pixel to match photogrammetry or texture space shading at >200meter? That just happens to be available on demand? And why would that ever work on consumer cards? Why not just take them as is, given that the average consumer probably won't bother to change the brightness and contrast?

If you're asking about the textures on the objects themselves, then if you want a "perfect" texture, you are going to have to use the photogrammetry, because texture space is just a single representation, while the photogrammetry model represents it as a collection of separate samples. This can sometimes lead to slight variations that are not noticeable. For example, a texture pattern that repeats itself over all of the surfaces of a model, may end up appearing more blurry at some places than others. (this actually makes more sense than anything written so far by tritosine)

I don't think the average consumer has the skills or the tools required to do this. Many of us don't have time to even go through those extra steps, but if you want to do it correctly, you have to.

I can think of 3 levels of details:

1. No details (like the default in some games

(yes it stops at 1 :-P though i think that is a character limit from the site)
 

tritosine2k

Erudite
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
1,399
4444itjic.jpg

What does that have to do with anything? What the hell does even "temporal reconstruction" has to do with anything in the discussion?

Apparently to you neither shimmering or temporal smear is a problem and if that's so I'm not quite sure what you have to do with the discussion either.
 

lukaszek

the determinator
Patron
Joined
Jan 15, 2015
Messages
12,499
to whoever it might interest tested monowire against tech weapon feats and couldnt see much difference.
However, there is this cyberware that heals you when you hit enemy with fully charged tech weapon. That one works with monowire even when its not 100%. Paired with wire being aoe weapon it can heal you nicely.
Get poison feats, poison wire mod and you will be doing quite nicely. Bleeding feats could come into play against bosses i guess... not tested.
 

Gargaune

Magister
Joined
Mar 12, 2020
Messages
3,067
to whoever it might interest tested monowire against tech weapon feats and couldnt see much difference.
However, there is this cyberware that heals you when you hit enemy with fully charged tech weapon. That one works with monowire even when its not 100%. Paired with wire being aoe weapon it can heal you nicely.
Get poison feats, poison wire mod and you will be doing quite nicely. Bleeding feats could come into play against bosses i guess... not tested.
Ah, Cyberpunk 2077 build porn, featuring such prestigious perks as:

Killing an enemy using a yellow tech weapon that has the letter "n" in its name gives you a 7.34(6)% crit chance bonus on your next attack performed within 78 seconds on a target with ginger hair, but only if it's a leap year and it's raining outside. If the attack is a critical hit and you're standing on your head while clicking, each projectile deals an additional Xd6 lead poisoning damage, where X is the square root of the total number of dildos in a six metre radius.

Damn shame they took out the swimming perk, that pissed off a lot of min-maxers.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,709
Since i am rich now and got 3080 i decided to test the RTX stuff in C77. I finished game 3 times before on ultra on my 1080 that barely could hold 50-60fps at 1080p without RTX.

C77 with raytracing definitely hits quite different at times. At times you experience almost no change but on other times it is huge change. Every if you turn on Psycho which add ray traced Global illumination there is still probe based global illumination and raytracing GI can't edit that.

By far the biggest difference is in the highlights especially when there is huge area light source and how shadows behave. Here is good example:

This is ULTRA:

L3q4t3e.jpg


And this is RTX with all bells and whistles:

xrGI3Z3.jpg


The first thing you can notice is complete lack of shadow. In raytraced one it grounds character. The second thing is lack of shadows coming from clothes. Black shirt is completely shadowless. In raytraced version of game there is distinct shadow that is created from part of jacket onto that black shirt.

Another scene:

This is the worst case scenario for standard restirization mode. Lot of objects that are lit from multiple sides with different amount of light level and via area lights. In this scene character is lit from the back which is correct but also receives yellow light from that light source in up left corner. Problem here is that sun is directional light source that has very limited ability to cast shadows otherwise it would murder performance while that orange light is just a point light.

The scene looks weird because there is distinct lack of correct shadows. The thing is weirdly lit and shadowed.

GvIckaJ.jpg


Now comes RT: Suddenly scene makes sense because shadows make sense.


G6cdlNO.jpg



Another scene. C77 cars have very intricate interior designs which look great.

cl06uSH.jpg


Then you take RTX pill and you suddenly see that it lacked something. Self shadowing and actual GI from outside world:

QILUatz.jpg


Then again there are some scenes in which GI raytracing seems to not work at all and build in probe based GI takes over and you have weirdly lit character.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,709
Here is another good one. Interiors of cars seems to be places where raytracing "shines" the most.

In this interior everything looks ok, just like in any other game.

8O00DaL.jpg


Then you add RTX and you sudenly see that original picture without RTX is quite different. Legs and floor is shadowed and wheel is in sun which makes wheel centerpiece of screenshot instead of being just part of it:

As7gD3V.png
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,709
Imho when it comes to raytracing it is not the reflections that are gamechanging but how scenes are properly shadowed. That is what gives depth to scene. The current rasterization methods are pretty good but you can clearly see where they fail. Human brain doesn't really care much about quality of reflection as long as they overall make stuff similar to what is supposed to be. On other hand it can easily see something is wrong with depth of image when shadows are wrong.
 

tritosine2k

Erudite
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
1,399
Imho when it comes to raytracing it is not the reflections that are gamechanging but how scenes are properly shadowed. That is what gives depth to scene. The current rasterization methods are pretty good but you can clearly see where they fail.
nothing special and just as doable without RT, crytek did "per object" stuff like this for cutscenes all the time

7-Figure7-1.png

Soft irregular shadow mapping: fast, high-quality, and robust soft shadows |
 
Last edited:

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,709
nothing special and just as doable without RT, crytek did "per object" stuff like this for cutscenes all the time

7-Figure7-1.png

Soft irregular shadow mapping: fast, high-quality, and robust soft shadows |

Per object shadows and self shadowing isn't really anything new, like you said crysis did it years ago.

What i am talking about is mostly penumbra and umbra. The shadows in this paper you quoted are made with point light which is why they are possible in restirization. The problem comes when light source is not point like object but has a volume. Area light it is called in rasterization but i don't really know any game that managed to get for those area lights proper "area shadows" They always produce point like source of shadow or no shadow at all.

Diagram_of_umbra%2C_penumbra_%26_antumbra.png
 

tritosine2k

Erudite
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
1,399
it's done, not a selling point, besides doing it on whole screen tanks perf regardless RT or:



so it's preferably a per-object technique still with scene wide stuff streamed in / precomputed.
 
Last edited:

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom