Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

[Rev]

Btw, Fairfax, what do you think of the Sawyer-MCA relationships now that Josh has been praising his former co-worker in pretty much all the recent interviews/videos and Chris has expressed his wish to work on Apocalypse Now, although the team is essentially (as far as we know, at least) three guys plus JES as a consultant?
Seems to me that most of the conspiracy theories about their hate for each other were just bullshit.

 

[Infinitron]

I think Chris' grudge against Obsidian is strong enough that he likely did resent Josh' status as the consummate loyal company man, but he may have gotten over that by now.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

I think Chris' grudge against Obsidian is strong enough that he likely did resent Josh' status as the consummate loyal company man, but he may have gotten over that by now.

I don't think the two are friends - they don't follow each other on Twitter - but Sawyer had some very nice words to say about Chris recently. I really hope they can bury the hatchet. I don't doubt Chris is better off now - maybe he will finally get to be a creative lead on his own game again - but it's a shame he left a great company like Obsidian on acrimonious terms, and it has only got worse since. Seriously, he's sniping at them all the time now.

 

[Fairfax]

Btw, Fairfax, what do you think of the Sawyer-MCA relationships now that Josh has been praising his former co-worker in pretty much all the recent interviews/videos and Chris has expressed his wish to work on Apocalypse Now, although the team is essentially (as far as we know, at least) three guys plus JES as a consultant?
Seems to me that most of the conspiracy theories about their hate for each other were just bullshit.

I never thought they hated each other. I said I believed they had a falling out during PoE's development, and that the frustration was probably just from MCA's side. He stopped mentioning Sawyer by name in interviews, unfollowed him on twitter, and said he didn't enjoy writing for PoE.
Chris had 3/4 of his content cut after investing "a lot of research and creative energy", according to Fenstermaker. He has said many times that he doesn't mind cuts and no game writer should, but that he does care about how it's handled.

My assumption has always been that it was Sawyer's decision as Project Director and that it was poorly handled. I don't believe Chris would've written so much content before getting some sort of approval, specially after what happened to Ulysses. Unfortunately, NDAs prevent MCA from talking in detail about what happened, so we won't know the details anytime soon.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Would you back a barebones MCA studio RPG?



yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

MCA not acting all butthurt, plus a team of writers and designers (of the John Gonzalez/George Ziets/Nathaniel Chapman/Tony Evans/Travis Stout/Eric Fenstermaker/Jeff Husges level), and some real programmer/developer bros like Anthony Davis, Adam Brennecke, Tim Cain, plus world designers and artists like Brian Menze, Scott Everts... yes, that would be awesome.

But most of those other people are at Obsidian, or working at other companies. I don't know how much talent is out there that Avellone can pick up and he definitely needs it if he isn't just going to be providing feedback to other people for the rest of his life.

 

[Rev]

I never thought they hated each other. I said I believed they had a falling out during PoE's development, and that the frustration was probably just from MCA's side. He stopped mentioning Sawyer by name in interviews, unfollowed him on twitter, and said he didn't enjoy writing for PoE.
Chris had 3/4 of his content cut after investing "a lot of research and creative energy", according to Fenstermaker. He has said many times that he doesn't mind cuts and no game writer should, but that he does care about how it's handled.

My assumption has always been that it was Sawyer's decision as Project Director and that it was poorly handled. I don't believe Chris would've written so much content before getting some sort of approval, specially after what happened to Ulysses. Unfortunately, NDAs prevent MCA from talking in detail about what happened, so we won't know the details anytime soon.

Yeah, I wasn't accusing you of thinking they hated each other or whatever, to be honest. I was just interested about your opinion on the matter, given that you're one of the users who know the most about everything-MCA and since recently there have been new elements to consider, like their willingness to work together again.

As for what exactly went wrong between Obsidian and Avellone after 2010, I think we won't know for at least some other years.

 

[Fairfax]

Would you back a barebones MCA studio RPG?



yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

MCA not acting all butthurt, plus a team of writers and designers (of the John Gonzalez/George Ziets/Nathaniel Chapman/Tony Evans/Travis Stout/Eric Fenstermaker/Jeff Husges level), and some real programmer/developer bros like Anthony Davis, Adam Brennecke, Tim Cain, plus world designers and artists like Brian Menze, Scott Everts... yes, that would be awesome.

But most of those other people are at Obsidian, or working at other companies. I don't know how much talent is out there that Avellone can pick up and he definitely needs it if he isn't just going to be providing feedback to other people for the rest of his life.

It's not that hard to bring people over if they feel passionate about the project. Look at David Gaider, for instance. There's no way he's making nearly as much money at Beamdog as he was at BioWare. Boyarsky might be another example, I wouldn't be surprised if he took a pay cut to join Tim Cain's project.

Also, sometimes even money could be a reason to leave, actually. Obsidian doesn't have a lot of departments or director roles, so there's very little upward mobility. Best you can do is become a project lead, as nobody is taking Sawyer's job or replacing the partners anytime soon. A Troika-sized studio could end up bringing more money to each developer than a major project at a big studio.

I never thought they hated each other. I said I believed they had a falling out during PoE's development, and that the frustration was probably just from MCA's side. He stopped mentioning Sawyer by name in interviews, unfollowed him on twitter, and said he didn't enjoy writing for PoE.
Chris had 3/4 of his content cut after investing "a lot of research and creative energy", according to Fenstermaker. He has said many times that he doesn't mind cuts and no game writer should, but that he does care about how it's handled.

My assumption has always been that it was Sawyer's decision as Project Director and that it was poorly handled. I don't believe Chris would've written so much content before getting some sort of approval, specially after what happened to Ulysses. Unfortunately, NDAs prevent MCA from talking in detail about what happened, so we won't know the details anytime soon.

Yeah, I wasn't accusing you of thinking they hated each other or whatever, to be honest. I was just interested about your opinion on the matter, given that you're one of the users who know the most about everything-MCA and since recently there have been new elements to consider, like their willingness to work together again.

As for what exactly went wrong between Obsidian and Avellone after 2010, I think we won't know for at least some other years.

It's alright. And yeah, it was interesting to see Sawyer saying that stuff. I even sent MCA the article, though I doubt he'll comment. Wouldn't be surprised if he reached out to Sawyer right after reading it.

My FNV comment was more of a joke, but I have no doubt Sawyer truly misses having some of these guys around. I think TTON in particular will highlight how prolific MCA is. With all this stretch goal controversy, it's worth reminding that MCA single-handedly wrote PS:T's 7 companions, even though Guido wanted to cut all of them. The TTON team had 4 years to deliver 9 companions and the game will ship with 6. All humans, and from what I've seen in the beta, inferior to PS:T companions.

 

[Cosmo]

My assumption has always been that it was Sawyer's decision as Project Director and that it was poorly handled. I don't believe Chris would've written so much content before getting some sort of approval, specially after what happened to Ulysses.

Knowing a little my Obsidian, i imagine it to be rather the absence of clear leadership and frank decisions, even towards his work, that ended up pissing off MCA.
Maybe the guys in fault were indeed the intermediate links between Sawyer and Avellone though...

Way i see things, on one hand he was probably confined to writing companions when he would have preferred tackling more global aspects of storytelling, and on the other if you spend that much energy for ultimately axed content (and let's not talk about the two NPCs that survived) there's no way you don't feel like having been kept in the dark, a fact rendered all the more insulting when no one in particular has had the balls to go and take responsibility for it (soft/absent leadership and all that).

 

[pippin]

I think MCA could have been a bit bothered by how JSawyer was getting all the hits with Obsidian while he was practically tossed to the side, but he probably does not have anything personal against him. If you hated someone that much, you won't work with them. But, at the same time, there are times where you ar feeling under the weather and you need some clean air.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Alright, I'm tired of you guys stumbling in the dark like blind puppies. I thought it was pretty obvious, but you still haven't figured it out, so alright, I'll give you a hint. If you connect all the dots, you'll see that what happened between Sawyer and Avellone is clear as day.

Combine the following facts:
- Sawyer is a sjw who hates masculinity and would like to have a more "diverse" working environment.
- Avellone was a ripped dude (high T), but then suddenly went on to become a bloated and fat guy, something that is usually associated with estrogen.
- Avellone started acting out and left the company, said he felt "unloved" and "unwanted", emotions usually associated with women.
- After leaving the company, Avellone got back into shape. He now hates Josh for something that Josh did to him. What might it have been huh?

Just connect the dots.

 

[Roguey]

Knowing a little my Obsidian, i imagine it to be rather the absence of clear leadership and frank decisions, even towards his work, that ended up pissing off MCA.
Maybe the guys in fault were indeed the intermediate links between Sawyer and Avellone though...

Way i see things, on one hand he was probably confined to writing companions when he would have preferred tackling more global aspects of storytelling, and on the other if you spend that much energy for ultimately axed content (and let's not talk about the two NPCs that survived) there's no way you don't feel like having been kept in the dark, a fact rendered all the more insulting when no one in particular has had the balls to go and take responsibility for it (soft/absent leadership and all that).

Avellone criticized the decision of giving Sawyer so many hats to wear in Pillars, and here's Pillars 2 coming out with Sawyer wearing significantly fewer hats, so it looks like they agreed with his assessment.

 

[Cosmo]

Avellone criticized the decision of giving Sawyer so many hats to wear in Pillars, and here's Pillars 2 coming out with Sawyer wearing significantly fewer hats, so it looks like they agreed with his assessment.

But do you see them butting heads directly ?
I know i don't.

 

[Fairfax]

My assumption has always been that it was Sawyer's decision as Project Director and that it was poorly handled. I don't believe Chris would've written so much content before getting some sort of approval, specially after what happened to Ulysses.

Knowing a little my Obsidian, i imagine it to be rather the absence of clear leadership and frank decisions, even towards his work, that ended up pissing off MCA.
Maybe the guys in fault were indeed the intermediate links between Sawyer and Avellone though...

Way i see things, on one hand he was probably confined to writing companions when he would have preferred tackling more global aspects of storytelling, and on the other if you spend that much energy for ultimately axed content (and let's not talk about the two NPCs that survived) there's no way you don't feel like having been kept in the dark, a fact rendered all the more insulting when no one in particular has had the balls to go and take responsibility for it (soft/absent leadership and all that).

As I've mentioned here before, there's this transition where MCA went from being the only full-time writer on PoE to just working on 2 companions, but we don't know why. Maybe he wanted to do more, maybe that was his own call, but again, NDAs. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Knowing a little my Obsidian, i imagine it to be rather the absence of clear leadership and frank decisions, even towards his work, that ended up pissing off MCA.
Maybe the guys in fault were indeed the intermediate links between Sawyer and Avellone though...

Way i see things, on one hand he was probably confined to writing companions when he would have preferred tackling more global aspects of storytelling, and on the other if you spend that much energy for ultimately axed content (and let's not talk about the two NPCs that survived) there's no way you don't feel like having been kept in the dark, a fact rendered all the more insulting when no one in particular has had the balls to go and take responsibility for it (soft/absent leadership and all that).

Avellone criticized the decision of giving Sawyer so many hats to wear in Pillars, and here's Pillars 2 coming out with Sawyer wearing significantly fewer hats, so it looks like they agreed with his assessment.

PoE and FNV, where he was Project Lead, Lead Designer, System Designer and wrote one companion. And I think that has more to do with Sawyer becoming Design Director than self-analysis. I'd expect him to wear just as many hats when he moves on to his historical RPG.

 

[Sensuki]

I assume it's also to 'breed' upcoming talent.

 

[2house2fly]

Would you back a barebones MCA studio RPG?



yessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

I'd rush to back an RPG headed by MCA even if "RPG headed by MCA" was literally the entire pitch.

 

[throwaway]

I think Chris' grudge against Obsidian is strong enough that he likely did resent Josh' status as the consummate loyal company man, but he may have gotten over that by now.

We've all witnessed the surge in his career but Sawyer doesn't exactly strike me as a "consummate loyal company man"..

it's worth reminding that MCA single-handedly wrote PS:T's 7 companions, even though Guido wanted to cut all of them.

 

[Rev]

PoE and FNV, where he was Project Lead, Lead Designer, System Designer and wrote one companion. And I think that has more to do with Sawyer becoming Design Director than self-analysis. I'd expect him to wear just as many hats when he moves on to his historical RPG.

He spent a lot of words saying how happy he is that there is a new system designer on the team, so we know that being the lead systems designer wasn't entirely his choice. For his historical rpg, he'll likely wear many hats as well, but that's because I guess it'll be a pretty minor project with a rather small team working on it.
MCA himself in case he finally starts a new game of his own would likely have more than just one role, unless he manages to get enough funds to hire a big team for it. But I'd assume he'd still be at least project lead/lead designer and lead writer, anyway.

 

[duanth123]

there's this transition where MCA went from being the only full-time writer on PoE to just working on 2 companions

Roguey, even you don't know why this was? Is there some suggestion in the development history?

 

[Fairfax]

PoE and FNV, where he was Project Lead, Lead Designer, System Designer and wrote one companion. And I think that has more to do with Sawyer becoming Design Director than self-analysis. I'd expect him to wear just as many hats when he moves on to his historical RPG.

He spent a lot of words saying how happy he is that there is a new system designer on the team, so we know that being the lead systems designer wasn't entirely his choice. For his historical rpg, he'll likely wear many hats as well, but that's because I guess it'll be a pretty minor project with a rather small team working on it.

Yeah, RPG systems designers (good or bad) are very rare, according to both Sawyer and MCA, so I imagine it wasn't even a question when they started PoE. The problem is that creating a D&D-like ruleset from the ground up was already a huge task. On top of that, he was also Project Lead, Lead Designer, wrote one of the companions, created the setting and designed much of the lore. The game suffered for it, as Sawyer admitted he didn't even notice the trash mobs, the Temple of Eothas being much harder than surrounding areas, etc.

MCA himself in case he finally starts a new game of his own would likely have more than just one role, unless he manages to get enough funds to hire a big team for it. But I'd assume he'd still be at least project lead/lead designer and lead writer, anyway.

MCA thinks it becomes a problem at 3 titles or more, so he probably would be ok as Project Lead and Lead Designer/Writer. One might argue that he was de facto Lead Designer and Lead Writer on both PS:T and KOTOR2, but neither team had "writers" per se, only designers. I don't know if he'd have separate departments in his own project.

there's this transition where MCA went from being the only full-time writer on PoE to just working on 2 companions

Roguey, even you don't know why this was? Is there some suggestion in the development history?

Nobody does. The tl;dr of the timeline is:

1. Stormlands is canned, Obsidian is fucked.
2. Sawyer wants Obsidian to do a Kickstarter, threatens to quit if they don't.
3. MCA is in favour, but most of the partners are skeptical.
4. Partners come around.
5. Feargus, Tim Cain, Sawyer, Adam Brennecke and MCA sit down to discuss the Kickstarter. Project Eternity is born.
6. Project Eternity campaign is launched. Sawyer, MCA and Tim Cain are the key figures.
7. Sawyer and MCA are the only ones working full-time on the project.
8. More people join the project.
9. Bunch of designers make their pitch for PoE's story. Fenstermaker and MCA had pitches, don't know who else.
10. Fenstermaker's pitch is chosen.
11. ?????????
12. MCA is assigned to writing 2 companions.

Years later MCA says he "didn't want to be Lead Writer at Obsidian". I intend to ask him why in the interview, but anything specific about PoE's development is under NDA, so the best person to explain what happened in that gap would be Sawyer, I guess.

 

[2house2fly]

The game suffered for it, as Sawyer admitted he didn't even notice the trash mobs, the Temple of Eothas being much harder than surrounding areas, etc.

I have trouble believing the last one, Temple of Eothas struck me as an early difficulty spike dungeon, somewhere you get owned and come back later. Kind of disappointed if it was just an accident, really.

 

[Rev]

Yeah, RPG systems designers (good or bad) are very rare, according to both Sawyer and MCA, so I imagine it wasn't even a question when they started PoE. The problem is that creating a D&D-like ruleset from the ground up was already a huge task. On top of that, he was also Project Lead, Lead Designer, wrote one of the companions, created the setting and designed much of the lore. The game suffered for it, as Sawyer admitted he didn't even notice the trash mobs, the Temple of Eothas being much harder than surrounding areas, etc.

Never had a problem with the Temple of Eothas myself (and when you pick up Durance it becomes much easier) and I thought it was intended to pose a bigger challenge than the rest of Gilded Vale and surroundings, since it was optional and all, but yeah, the trash mobs were too many, something I'm glad Sawyer himself is aware of so we can hope PoE2 will have less of them. Overall I agree with you, anyway, he had too many roles, one or two tasks less would've been better.

MCA thinks it becomes a problem at 3 titles or more, so he probably would be ok as Project Lead and Lead Designer/Writer. One might argue that he was de facto Lead Designer and Lead Writer on both PS:T and KOTOR2, but neither team had "writers" per se, only designers. I don't know if he'd have separate departments in his own project.

Well, he designed both Torment and KotOR II from the initial concepts till the end-product and wrote most of the content, so yes, I'd say he was both lead designer and lead writer on both.
Since you're asking him questions, did he already say anything about his possible future project? Hopefully, he'll not waste five more years doing just minor stuff on other people's games.

 

[Kev Inkline]

Yeah, RPG systems designers (good or bad) are very rare, according to both Sawyer and MCA, so I imagine it wasn't even a question when they started PoE. The problem is that creating a D&D-like ruleset from the ground up was already a huge task. On top of that, he was also Project Lead, Lead Designer, wrote one of the companions, created the setting and designed much of the lore. The game suffered for it, as Sawyer admitted he didn't even notice the trash mobs, the Temple of Eothas being much harder than surrounding areas, etc.

Never had a problem with the Temple of Eothas myself (and when you pick up Durance it becomes much easier) and I thought it was intended to pose a bigger challenge than the rest of Gilded Vale and surroundings, since it was optional and all
I had troubles with the final battle on the hard difficulty, but a lot of it had to do with the initial positioning: After the cutscene your whole party is bunched up in the final chamber, your PC in front of everyone.

 

[Fairfax]

I didn't have a problem with the Temple of Eothas either, I actually liked it. I mentioned that because someone asked Sawyer on stream if it was meant to punish players for entering the wrong area (or something like that), but he said it wasn't intentional. My point was that it was his job to notice that (not necessarily change it) and the trash mobs, but he was too busy due to his many roles.

Well, he designed both Torment and KotOR II from the initial concepts till the end-product and wrote most of the content, so yes, I'd say he was both lead designer and lead writer on both.
Since you're asking him questions, did he already say anything about his possible future project? Hopefully, he'll not waste five more years doing just minor stuff on other people's games.

No, I haven't asked about his pet project yet. I asked about the new studio, but that was one of the questions he saved for when he has more time to answer.

I'm thinking Bard's Tale IV since the stretch goal wasn't reached and he's miffed about not getting to design dungeons.

Found a strong clue that it was BT4:

At a certain stage they started to joke that Avellone became a professional additional objective, which is used to help the Thunder stand out. This kind of popularity not really enjoys it.

- Frankly, I'm tired of it - he says. - Bard's Tale IV is probably the last project, to which I joined in this way. Unless there is something special, I've had enough. I prefer to create a game than to promote them.

Cooperation with Avellone can make the project more prestigious, but there's something that bothers creator.

- My presence on a project where I am treated as a prestigious addition, it can obscure the hard work of people who engage even eighty hours a week to their game really shone. I do not work as much as they, and everyone looks at me. It's not fair.

The human stretch goal is leaving his stretch goal days behind, it would seem.

EDIT:

That was a google translation, here's a better translation by Radek:

It's pretty close Fairfax:

At a certain stage they started to joke that Avellone became a professional additional objective, which is used to help the games stand out. This kind of popularity he not really enjoys.

- Frankly, I'm tired of it - he says. - Bard's Tale IV is probably the last project, to which I joined in this way. Unless something special appears, I've had enough. I prefer to create a game than to promote them.

Cooperation with Avellone can make the project more prestigious, but there's something that bothers creator.

- My presence on a project where I am treated as a prestigious addition, it can obscure the hard work of people who engage even eighty hours a week to their game really shone. I do not work as much as they, and everyone looks at me. It's not fair.

Other interesting things:

I will be available as long as Swen will need me.

There are four major characters in his Wasteland 2 book.

 

[Russia is over. The end.]

Bunch of designers make their pitch for PoE's story. Fenstermaker and MCA had pitches, don't know who else.

Ask MCA if he had a pitch of his own and what it was, would you?

 

[Sensuki]

From what I recall from official info, he didn't pitch one and didn't attend all the story meetings either. It's also possible he may have spoken about it before, but I do not recall.