Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

[Lhynn]

I like Chris Avellone THIS much.

 

[Nutria]

Is this Avellone vs. Sawyer thing like in the last Olympics when NBC tried to make up a feud between that black speed skater and the Texas honkey to drive up ratings?

 

[Luckmann]

That's enough, Chris Avellone. I'm honestly disgusted by that tweet. The way LucasArts forced them to release KotOR 2 in a year was inhumane, and it had a significantly negative affect on everyone at Obsidian at the time. Whether or not the fucking interface got changed doesn't change the fact that having to develop a triple-A game in one year is horrible.

It was Feargus' fault for doing a verbal agreement instead of getting the release date in writing.

I'm not sure how it is in the states, but verbal agreements are still agreements. The issue is the burden of proof when verbal agreements are broken. Why they don't record all conversations like this is completely beyond me.

It was Feargus' fault for doing a verbal agreement instead of getting the release date in writing.

and LucasArts for being dishonorable corporate whores

Thing is, though, they're expected to be. Expecting them to not be corporate whores is what makes me question their cognitive capabilities.

 

[Cross]

A lot of us expected the Genius Artist to start his own company pronto and show the talentless hacks how it's done.

Couple of years pass, Obsidian seems to be doing great and are probably in best condition they have ever been. Meanwhile, the Genius Artist spends his days bitching on twitter to his 85 followers and whoring himself out to mediocre developers doing forgettable side jobs.

Funny how things change.

best condition they have ever been

Tyranny was a disaster and the PoE franchise, while commercially succesful, is about as unoriginal as an original IP can be. You have a strange definition of 'best condition they have ever been'.

 

[Deleted Member 16721]

Obsidian and Larian are two that are poised to blow up and do big things going forward. They both have found that sweet spot of "old-school CRPG yet still modern enough to attract new fans." I'm kind of shocked how well D:OS2 was received and I expect similar things from PoE2.

 

[Daedalos]

Keep in mind, we still got the Boyarsky/Cain project brimming behind the scenes at Obsidian, it might be nothing, but it might also just be the next great thang.

 

[Lahey]

It might be the next gre- http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-a-better-rpg-seven-mistakes-to-avoid.114809/

 

[Alienman]

Shapes!

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Tyranny was a disaster and the PoE franchise, while commercially succesful, is about as unoriginal as an original IP can be. You have a strange definition of 'best condition they have ever been'.

I have the same definition that the entire planet uses to describe the condition of company - financial situation and future prospects in the industry. PoE may have been controversial as game, but it gave them a reliable leg to stand on for years to come and it gave them their own IP they can rely on if hard times were to come again. And that's something Obsidian never really had since their inception.

Whether that security will make them fat and lazy and they will end up producing mediocre work, remains to be seen. There's an argument to be made that only starving artists reach heights of creativity.

But as a company they're in as good of a shape as they've ever been.

 

[ga♥]

I have the same definition that the entire planet uses to describe the condition of company - financial situation and future prospects in the industry.

You have access to Obsidian books? Wow! Mind to share? Otherwise why don't you go shitpost on the Obsidian thread instead of polluting here.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

I have the same definition that the entire planet uses to describe the condition of company - financial situation and future prospects in the industry.

You have access to Obsidian books? Wow! Mind to share?

I can try, let me ask Feargus, hold on a second.

Edit: Feargus says that your mother sucks uncircumcised donkey cocks. Sorry fella, I did my best but I guess you are just not worthy.

 

[Fairfax]

I'm not sure how it is in the states, but verbal agreements are still agreements. The issue is the burden of proof when verbal agreements are broken. Why they don't record all conversations like this is completely beyond me.

Even if they could've enforced the agreement, suing their very first partner over a deadline would've been a terrible look, especially given how lucky they were to get the project in the first place.

Tyranny was a disaster and the PoE franchise, while commercially succesful, is about as unoriginal as an original IP can be. You have a strange definition of 'best condition they have ever been'.

Their best period was 2009-2011. In terms of talent the studio was its peak, and they had (though not simultaneously) FNV, Alpha Protocol, Dungeon Siege III, Aliens, South Park, and Stormlands to work on. A very popular RPG series and a less popular one, 2 pop culture licences and 2 original AAA projects. All great opportunities to become as successful as the biggest RPG studios. However, in true Obsidian fashion, they botched most of them, and in 2012 they almost went bankrupt.

 

[Flou]

Their best period was 2009-2011. In terms of talent the studio was its peak, and they had (though not simultaneously) FNV, Alpha Protocol, Dungeon Siege III, Aliens, South Park, and Stormlands to work on. A very popular RPG series and a less popular one, 2 pop culture licences and 2 original AAA projects. All great opportunities to become as successful as the biggest RPG studios. However, in true Obsidian fashion, they botched most of them, and in 2012 they almost went bankrupt.

So how did they botch most of them? FNV is still the best Fallout game from Bethesda -era. It sold like water in a motherfucking desert.

Dungeon Siege 3 made profit according Obsidian, unless Squuenix spent ton on marketing. Yea, it wasn't a solid hit since people were expecting something similar to the original 2 games that were just fucking terrible. Publisher decided on the naming afaik. Obsidian didn't want to call it DS3 due to the change in the game mechanics and such. They also developed their engine that got to use again on South Park.

South Park also sold quite fucking well and was good enough to get a sequel. Who knows how much problems they had due to THQ going bankrupt in middle of development.

Alpha Protocol. Still better crpg than any of the Mass Effects. Sega's decision to push it behind ME2 cost them dearly, otherwise it wouldn't have reviewed as horribly in USA as it did. In Europe the game did well, but then again us Europeans can actually appriciate a good game even though it is not perfect.
AP development was hellish though and it cost them Aliens. But in a scenario where Aliens doesn't get cancelled, Obsidian isn't free to develop FNV and that deal might have fallen through if Bethesda would have had to wait for Obsidian to have a team available.

Stormlands, yes. They fucked up with that, but then again Microsoft didn't seem like an easy partner to work with, with their ridicilous expectations on what the new console should be able to do.

Also it's still too early to compare their talent pool from those years to the present day. These new people have what? 1 or possibly 2 games under their belt at Obsidian. Where as these people from 2009-2011 have worked on multiple games since year 2009. That's 9 years worth of games. Wait an another 5-9 years and compare the talent pool then once you've actually seen what these people are capable of. It's quite possible we will have this same conversation in 5 years with people crying after Patel and Kirsch who've gotten a bigger payday in a bigger company and calling the 17-20 the golden age of Obsidian while spitting on the new people.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Stormlands getting axed was all of their own fault. We're talking launch-date console exclusive, something that is supposed to awe people and get them to rush the stores and buy the boxes. Microsoft would be willing to dump endless millions on this shit if Obsidian showed them a compelling project. But they didn't.

And yeah, corporate executives don't know shit about RPGs, don't know much about gaming at all, and you have to present your game to a room packed with some Harvard educated finance people with MBAs who only care about the numbers. That's your job to make them understand and get them to play ball, they provide the money, you provide them with proof that that money isn't being wasted. That's just how any contract work on any level in any industry works. Your client is a moron and you have to make him happy and put up with his stupid request, and do it in a way that you both are satisfied so you can land another contract down the line.

And looking at what was released about Stormlands, I don't fucking even know what was Obsidian thinking. The artwork is goofy, the concept is too weird to be appealing to mainsteam console audience, and the whole thing just reeks of creative impotence.

 

[Fairfax]

FNV is still the best Fallout game from Bethesda -era. It sold like water in a motherfucking desert.

AP, Aliens, Stormlands, DS3 = 4 out of 6. FNV was a major success, yes, but it also cemented their Bugsidian reputation and had the metacritic bonus fiasco.

Dungeon Siege 3 made profit according Obsidian, unless Squuenix spent ton on marketing. Yea, it wasn't a solid hit since people were expecting something similar to the original 2 games that were just fucking terrible. Publisher decided on the naming afaik. Obsidian didn't want to call it DS3 due to the change in the game mechanics and such. They also developed their engine that got to use again on South Park.

The fact they made DS3 with a small budget ($8 million IIRC?) is remarkable, but nothing about the game itself or its reception is. It effectively killed the series, and SE has yet to work with them again.

South Park also sold quite fucking well and was good enough to get a sequel. Who knows how much problems they had due to THQ going bankrupt in middle of development.

They got that one right, and the THQ thing was out of their hands.

Alpha Protocol. Still better crpg than any of the Mass Effects. Sega's decision to push it behind ME2 cost them dearly, otherwise it wouldn't have reviewed as horribly in USA as it did. In Europe the game did well, but then again us Europeans can actually appriciate a good game even though it is not perfect.

They game had to be delayed multiple times. It would've been considerably worse if they hadn't.

AP development was hellish though and it cost them Aliens. But in a scenario where Aliens doesn't get cancelled, Obsidian isn't free to develop FNV and that deal might have fallen through if Bethesda would have had to wait for Obsidian to have a team available.

Yes, it was a blessing in disguise, but still a wasted opportunity, and you can add SEGA to the list of publishers which never worked with them again.

Stormlands, yes. They fucked up with that, but then again Microsoft didn't seem like an easy partner to work with, with their ridicilous expectations on what the new console should be able to do.

The stuff they've shown confirms it was all on Obsidian.

Also it's still too early to compare their talent pool from those years to the present day. These new people have what? 1 or possibly 2 games under their belt at Obsidian. Where as these people from 2009-2011 have worked on multiple games since year 2009. That's 9 years worth of games. Wait an another 5-9 years and compare the talent pool then once you've actually seen what these people are capable of. It's quite possible we will have this same conversation in 5 years with people crying after Patel and Kirsch who've gotten a bigger payday in a bigger company and calling the 17-20 the golden age of Obsidian while spitting on the new people.

They lost 2/3 of the people who made their most successful and popular game. Also, if you consider writing is supposed to be their wheelhouse, the damage was even worse. They lost all FNV writers (MCA, John Gonzalez, Travis Stout, Eric Fenstermaker) + George Ziets. Now look at their writing.

 

[Jarmaro]

Isn't Obsidian financially sucessful though?

 

[Trashos]

Their investment on the Cain/Boyarsky game indeed makes me think that they are doing well.

Also, do we have another reasonable theory for their financial troubles after FNV, other than Bethesda fucking them over? Because it sure looks to me like Bethesda fucked them over in the most unacceptable way possible.

 

[Fairfax]

Their investment on the Cain/Boyarsky game indeed makes me think that they are doing well.

That's Take-Two.

Also, do we have another reasonable theory for their financial troubles after FNV, other than Bethesda fucking them over? Because it sure looks to me like Bethesda fucked them over in the most unacceptable way possible.

Bethesda did shaft them, but IIRC Feargus said it wasn't a lot of money and that they didn't even ask for the bonus.

Obsidian's financial troubles came down to the fact they lived from contract to contract. They didn't own anything they created and didn't make money from sales. They depended entirely on publishers, and after a while, none of them were interested anymore. RPGs are inherently more expensive than most games, and Obsidian had become too risky of a gamble. If you pay Obsidian to make a game for you, you never know what you'll get. You hope you'll get a FNV, but it could be a NWN2, a DS3, or a Stormlands. PoE restored some of their reputation, which made Paradox gamble on them with Tyranny, but look at how that went. In short, the most reliable thing about Obsidian is the fact they're unreliable.

 

[Infinitron]

IMO Obsidian are almost certainly partially financing Indiana with their own cash. Most publishing arrangements where the developer gets to keep the IP work that way.

Anyway these "Obsidian is the worst developer, except for everybody else" conversations are getting p. boring

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

IMO Obsidian are almost certainly partially financing Indiana with their own cash. Most publishing arrangements where the developer gets to keep the IP work that way.

Anyway these "Obsidian is the worst developer, except for everybody else" conversations are getting p. boring

Boring and pointless, because we can't make a remotely accurate assesment until at least POE2 and Indiana come out. There's some good signs - they seemed to have cleaned up their act in terms of bug fixing, keeping the projects focused and actually getting them out in a timely fashion. And there's bad signs = most of their proven talent is gone. They're certainly a different company than 10 years ago, but whether they've changed for the better or worse? Too early to tell.

 

[MRY]

Obsidian made three undeniably great RPGs (MOTB, F:NV, and KOTOR2), a nouveau Infinity Engine and a well-regarded (even on the Codex!) RPG in it, and several other titles that at least some people seem to like. It did so while remaining independent from giants like EA, and in so doing, nurtured a lot of great talent and paid a lot of people a lot of money doing jobs they loved, even if some of them stopped loving those jobs in the process. Hard to see why you would hate on them.

 

[Latro]

I can deny MOTB, F:NV, and kotor2.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Obsidian made three undeniably great RPGs (MOTB, F:NV, and KOTOR2), a nouveau Infinity Engine and a well-regarded (even on the Codex!) RPG in it, and several other titles that at least some people seem to like. It did so while remaining independent from giants like EA, and in so doing, nurtured a lot of great talent and paid a lot of people a lot of money doing jobs they loved, even if some of them stopped loving those jobs in the process. Hard to see why you would hate on them.

I think the sentiment here isn't whether Obsidian have been good for RPGs or not (they have). It's more aboutt whether they underperformed given their potential. I mean, we're talking about of a core group of developers from arguably the most accomplished RPG developer in the West, who started their own company and had full control to do things their way. They've had level of know-how and expertise far beyond the level available to anyone else in the industry, and by a mile. They were all still basically young adults with room to grow into even better versions of themselves. That's the thing that always amazes me by the way, these fucking guys have made original Fallouts and PST while still in mid 20s.

So with all of that potential, 15 years later. Should they still be a struggling company that has to worry about the future, while Todd Howards of the world are driving around in different limo every day of the week?

That's what always bugs me about Bethesda made Fallouts. It's like George Lucas making the New Hope only to get bought up by a studio and forced to hunt down random contracts just to pay the bills, or Pink Floyd going bankrupt and being forced to play Lady Gaga pop covers on prom nights. All while some talentless hack is laughing all the way to the bank with a creation that isn't his.

 

[Roguey]

Black Isle never had a megahit. Bioware they weren't.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Everything Black Isle has done was a megahit, and remains a megahit 20 years later.

Whether it made profit? I don't give a shit.