Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

[GrainWetski]

The original Call of Juarez is a horrible game by modern standards.

What are these "modern standards" you speak of? Every FPS released being a godawful cuntpad mess? It ticks that box, so that can't be it.

Writing and level design is just plain bad.

Like every modern FPS, so I assume those aren't part of the "modern standards" either.

Voice acting isn't good either

Some have decent VA, so I guess that must be it! Ah, yes, the most important of features. You are a man of great taste.

 

[J_C]

The guys from SA and resetera hate us, but they keep reading the Codex. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So I was just reading RPG Codex and I realized Chris Avellone is reading the Codex and I'm offended because only bad people read RPG Codex. - ResetEra.

The sad thing is that this is the truth. They discredit whatever he is saying just because he is writing it on a forum they hate. Ridiculous.

 

[J_C]

as an aside for anyone who hasn't played Call of juarez (ignore its sequels the 3rd game) I definitely recommend it. O

ftfy, since IMO the 2nd game is also great.

 

[Cael]

The guys from SA and resetera hate us, but they keep reading the Codex. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

So I was just reading RPG Codex and I realized Chris Avellone is reading the Codex and I'm offended because only bad people read RPG Codex. - ResetEra.

The sad thing is that this is the truth. They discredit whatever he is saying just because he is writing it on a forum they hate. Ridiculous.

Not surprising. These are the kind of people who destroy property, physically assault others and hound them to suicide because that person happen to disagree with them on something. These are also the same kind of people who attacked Trump for his bad response to Hurricane Florence when it hasn't even reached land yet. Deranged doesn't even begin to describe them. Yet, not only are they not locked up for obvious looniness, but are elected to the Senate. No wonder Western civilisation is so completely fucked.

 

[Goral]

(...)

It's not trolling so much as I'm interested he's describing New Vegas and Pillars Of Eternity 2 as "shameful" because of their bugs while the most recent game he worked on has very widely discussed technical issues. I wonder if statements like "nobody should EVER have to pay for a buggy product" are him trying to imply without outright saying his feelings about PK, or if he's just willing to overlook bugginess in a game he works on if it comes from a company he likes.

I'd say that about any game, whether I worked on it or not and whether I like the company or not. I've said it about KOTOR2, and I was largely to blame for that game's release state.
(...)
In short, I don't want anyone to buy a broken product, whether I worked on it or not. I wouldn't want to buy a product like that, either, especially if I'd been waiting for it, had reserved time to play it, etc. and you spend most of your time fighting bugs.
(...)

Bethesda was trying to encourage us to do a quality job, they didn't have to, and we missed the mark - but within the realm where it was clear we could have fixed it.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see you criticizing Bethesda games (which are always bugged, often more bugged than any Obsidian game). What's more you're not only not criticizing their games, you're praising them! Also, wouldn't F:NV be less buggy if Bethesda wouldn't make you release it so soon instead of giving you so little time for quality assurance?

And while I'm at it, I don't see you criticizing Todd Howard or Pete Hines either who are total scumbags/weasels lying through their teeth (some examples have already been presented in this thread but I can give more examples) but you have no reservations from criticizing Josh Sawyer or Feargus Urquhart (the latter gets criticism deservedly but he still appears to me as a much better person than Bethesda execs).

There is a good reason why we have these jews as "smilies" (in the developer mugs section, and I won't post the most vulgar, faggish version of Pete Hines).

CA: It's their license, and the two coasts are pretty far apart. Bethesda did reference San Francisco in Kellog's memory dungeon in F4, though, and it was clearly a Fallout 2 reference. I still think it was weird to do a Vegas when we already had a New Reno, it felt like the record was skipping. Still, it's likely because Vegas is more a key (and recognizable) signature city than Reno was, but I don't know why the decision was made.

CA: I think a Fallout MMO would do well. Yes, RPG Codex, light your torches, I'll send you a map to my house.

Bethesda definitely has a better design-exploration-aesthetic than any game I've worked on.

 

[Haba]

Watch out guys, this one has gone Goral

 

[Flou]

I think there are classes of bugs that seems to only turn up in certain hardware combinations, which makes it really annoying for developers because some players will have a perfectly smooth experience, while to others that game will feel like a total mess

I played all 3 games on XBOX, so it's not hardware issues. On PC hardware combinations are definately an issue.

 

[TT1]

Oh, look, another post on SA!

 

[Mikeal]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see you criticizing Bethesda games (which are always bugged, often more bugged than any Obsidian game). What's more you're not only not criticizing their games, you're praising them! Also, wouldn't F:NV be less buggy if Bethesda wouldn't make you release it so soon instead of giving you more time for quality assurance?

And while I'm at it, I don't see you criticizing Todd Howard or Pete Hines either who are total scumbags/weasels lying through their teeth (some examples have already ben presented in this thread but I can give more examples) but you have no reservations from criticizing Josh Sawyer or Feargus Urquhart (the latter gets criticism deservedly but he still appears to me as a much better person than Bethesda execs).

There is a good reason why we have these jews as "smilies" (in the developer mugs section, and I won't post the most vulgar, faggish version of Pete Hines).

If you have some juicy secrets share it.

 

[Jazz_]

I fear that Chris Avellone will one day wake up gagged and tied to a chair with the talking deathclaws guy asking him all teary why he had to cut them from New Vegas and how an extroverted narcissistic sociopath like him will never be able to comprehend the joy that giant talking lizards bring to introverts.

 

[ga♥]

Hey Chris, are you involved in any Kingmaker expansion? I love the game, and I would be happy if you were on board for those as well.
And if you are, any chance to see some attention to the spells system and mages? As you helped also in chosing VO actors (kudos for those) I feel like asking you to lobby for that.

 

[Latelistener]

And while I'm at it, I don't see you criticizing Todd Howard or Pete Hines either who are total scumbags/weasels lying through their teeth (some examples have already ben presented in this thread but I can give more examples) but you have no reservations from criticizing Josh Sawyer or Feargus Urquhart (the latter gets criticism deservedly but he still appears to me as a much better person than Bethesda execs).

They did something to him while he was working on Prey. Now he can't say anything bad about Bethesda.

Spoiler

 

[Flou]

I fear that Chris Avellone will one day wake up gagged and tied to a chair with the talking deathclaws guy asking him all teary why he had to cut them from New Vegas and how an extroverted narcissistic sociopath like him will never be able to comprehend the joy that giant talking lizards bring to introverts.

I think that would be an upgrade over being held hostage by Pete Hines and Todd Howard in some danky basement in Maryland.

 

[fantadomat]

Todd Howard is a funny guy with a nice sense of humour and thick skin,i like him.

When you think about it real RPGs are in simbiotic relationship with popamole RPGs that company like Bethesda and Bioware make. Real RPGs do give ideas and IPs for those companies to make,while popamole bring a small percent of people that get interested but want something more complex.

 

[Quillon]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see you criticizing Bethesda games (which are always bugged, often more bugged than any Obsidian game). What's more you're not only not criticizing their games, you're praising them! Also, wouldn't F:NV be less buggy if Bethesda wouldn't make you release it so soon instead of giving you so little time for quality assurance?

And while I'm at it, I don't see you criticizing Todd Howard or Pete Hines either who are total scumbags/weasels lying through their teeth (some examples have already been presented in this thread but I can give more examples) but you have no reservations from criticizing Josh Sawyer or Feargus Urquhart (the latter gets criticism deservedly but he still appears to me as a much better person than Bethesda execs).

Well he can't be objective on the matter cos Obs/Upper Management fucked him and Bethesda's holding the Fallout license; he needs to doubly make sure that Obs wouldn't get their hands on it again while he's out there doing nothing that matters :D

Also he's not yet openly criticizing Josh for anything but we're getting there

 

[Fairfax]

Question to Chris Avellone :

What do you think about the dialogue wheel of Alpha Protocol in hindsight? I usually don't like dialogue wheels in RPGs, because you simply can't shrink down a few sentences into 2 words, and this leads to characters saying different things than what is implied in the dialogue wheel.

The reason I liked it in AP was that it didn't wanted to do that. It just showed the attitude/style of the answer, so you knew what you are getting into. Also. the timer on the answers added to the flow on the conversations, so it felt more natural. I kinda miss these kind of dialogue wheels in other games.

Would you do something like that in your future games? Or you would improve it somehow?

Since he didn't answer:

The dialogue wheel vs. traditional lines of text. Do you think choosing one or the other for an RPG has significant consequences? Does the former make role-playing easier since you are choosing based on a general principle, or harder since you don’t know exactly what you are choosing to say?

I prefer choosing text lines because I want to know exactly what I am going to say, not the “gist” of what I’m going to say and then passively watching to see what I say. This may sound strange coming from the narrative designer of the title, but I didn’t like the emotion adjectives in Alpha Protocol, even though there were parts of that system that I thought were great.

Also, I don’t usually care for games that give my character a voice – that’s my only comment. I think it works sometimes (Mass Effect), other times I feel it ends up being extraneous and a waste of time… although it all depends what type of “role-playing” you’re doing. If you’re role-playing a specific character (which may sound strange in the context of “role-playing”), then voice is fine and great. If you’re allowed to build and customize your character, I prefer no voice.

Then again, my approach with that may be Old School, so take that with a grain of salt.

[Geraldo] Alright, so can I just ask for your opinion on the systems that Bioware uses now? So Dragon Age, the wheel, that line of dialogue that doesn't really match what the person says?

[Chris] I don't mind the dialogue wheel, it works, and also I think it works better with the controller in some fashion, in terms of choosing options, it's a lot easier to get to certain subjects based on the thumbstick when you have a radial like that. The two issues you have with that are, if you spell out the entire line, and then it shows it, and they say it, that sort of wastes player time, but then when you have just the topic points that you're choosing, and then the player says something in relation to the topic, you have the issue like what you were talking about, and then it's not exactly like you imagined that topic being asked about but I think that's a much lesser evil than doing the "I read the whole line, I hit the button, I say the line", I just get tired, I just get exhausted.

 

[Fairfax]

Also he's not yet openly criticizing Josh for anything but we're getting there

What? He's criticized Sawyer a bunch of times.

 

[2house2fly]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see you criticizing Bethesda games (which are always bugged, often more bugged than any Obsidian game). What's more you're not only not criticizing their games, you're praising them! Also, wouldn't F:NV be less buggy if Bethesda wouldn't make you release it so soon instead of giving you so little time for quality assurance?

And while I'm at it, I don't see you criticizing Todd Howard or Pete Hines either who are total scumbags/weasels lying through their teeth (some examples have already been presented in this thread but I can give more examples) but you have no reservations from criticizing Josh Sawyer or Feargus Urquhart (the latter gets criticism deservedly but he still appears to me as a much better person than Bethesda execs).

Well he can't be objective on the matter cos Obs/Upper Management fucked him and Bethesda's holding the Fallout license; he needs to doubly make sure that Obs wouldn't get their hands on it again while he's out there doing nothing that matters :D

Also he's not yet openly criticizing Josh for anything but we're getting there

He openly criticised Josh like yesterday for going on vacation

 

[Quillon]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see you criticizing Bethesda games (which are always bugged, often more bugged than any Obsidian game). What's more you're not only not criticizing their games, you're praising them! Also, wouldn't F:NV be less buggy if Bethesda wouldn't make you release it so soon instead of giving you so little time for quality assurance?

And while I'm at it, I don't see you criticizing Todd Howard or Pete Hines either who are total scumbags/weasels lying through their teeth (some examples have already been presented in this thread but I can give more examples) but you have no reservations from criticizing Josh Sawyer or Feargus Urquhart (the latter gets criticism deservedly but he still appears to me as a much better person than Bethesda execs).

Well he can't be objective on the matter cos Obs/Upper Management fucked him and Bethesda's holding the Fallout license; he needs to doubly make sure that Obs wouldn't get their hands on it again while he's out there doing nothing that matters :D

Also he's not yet openly criticizing Josh for anything but we're getting there

He openly criticised Josh like yesterday for going on vacation

It was not criticizing Josh. He just outed Feargus for fake development positions for more moneh from publishers.

He said lots of things implying Josh before without openly saying his name tho.

 

[2house2fly]

He said Josh shouldn't have gone on vacation after being made executive producer on a game and got gloriously raked over the coals by the development team for phoning it in his first week. He definitely wasn't Josh's biggest fan for that bit of gossip

 

[Quillon]

He said Josh shouldn't have gone on vacation after being made executive producer on a game and got gloriously raked over the coals by the development team for phoning it in his first week. He definitely wasn't Josh's biggest fan for that bit of gossip

Which is true then? The position is real so what he said about Feargus false? Or vice versa? Anyway, I'd like to see him criticize Josh for what he actually does, the direction he took making NV etc rather than what position fake or real he's in the company, otherwise its more like insider info/reporting news(MCAfinitron) rather than criticism.

 

[Roguey]

He said Josh shouldn't have gone on vacation after being made executive producer on a game and got gloriously raked over the coals by the development team for phoning it in his first week. He definitely wasn't Josh's biggest fan for that bit of gossip

I imagine the ideal situation according to Chris:

a) Josh goes on vacation, someone who's not him inherit's Rich Taylor's role on Outer Worlds
or
b) Josh takes the EP role and cancels his vacation to get right to work.

 

[Fairfax]

Which is true then? The position is real so what he said about Feargus false? Or vice versa?

He thinks there's no value in the position:

As far as we know he left for Blizzard on his own. Are there anyone else who could have replaced him?

Did an Exec Producer... who is somehow different from a Lead Producer, unless incompetent, in which case, you should fire the Lead Producer... need to be replaced?

I'd say no. It's a bullshit position designed to generate income from a publisher, I see no value in it. But okay, Obsidian, good one. Applause.

I have heard of new Exec Producer positions at Obsidian, and it simply reinforces the harm the position causes/will cause. I mean - would you really want Chris Parker as Exec. Producer on your project? I say nay, and I say it with confidence.

The circumstances made it worse and left no doubt that it was fake:

Note I don't blame Josh so much for having a vacation, as it was likely his vacation he had in place once Pillars 2 had shipped (and I don't think Rich's resignation was planned for at all)... BUT, if you are Exec. Producer on a game that may be on its final stages, going on extended vanishing vacation = nope.

(Apparently, the amount of attention Josh gave to the project on his first week was pretty dismal, though, so it may for the best. It even got to the point upper management got complaints - as was relayed to me, the Leads called Josh out on his behavior, which I would have loved to have seen - esp. if Leonard was involved in the raking-across-the-coals.)

I do blame whoever thought it was fucking brilliant to make Josh an Executive Producer when a Design Director should already have enough to do... but whatever, I can guess why: a Design Director you can't charge Take-Two for, but an Executive Producer you can charge Take-Two for to offset your new house costs.

Anyway, I'd like to see him criticize Josh for what he actually does, the direction he took making NV etc rather than what position fake or real he's in the company, otherwise its more like insider info/reporting news(MCAfinitron) rather than criticism.

Some examples related to FNV:

So Chris Avellone , what is the true story behind FNV? I keep hearing how bathesda farked o*sidian with the metacritic score?

I don't believe they did at all - it was our responsibility to do more to make the game better, but the people making the decisions on game quality kept getting distracted by shiny objects.

It was Obsidian's fault, and as Ferg said, Bethesda didn't even have to offer that in the contract at all - it was up to us to manage it to a successful quality completion, and we didn't succeed at that. Good people lost their jobs because of that.

I gave a lot of thought as to why, and some of it came out in my Hierarchy presentations - don't let the person who can enact change be distracted. Let them use their powers for good to fix the title, because they have the authority to ensure quality is achieved.

I thought Cook-Cook was disgusting, and even more disgusting b/c his initial premise in the region doc was 1-2 lines that had a disturbing focus on rape and abuse.

But yeah, I thought Cook-Cook was garbage design, narratively and otherwise. Not only because of the references, but also because those few sentences were his character, which makes the rape and abuse references even worse because the writer/designer hasn't given any thought to the references nor is there any depth beyond shock value.

MCA has criticized Sawyer for decisions on PoE, FNV, and IWD2, though usually without naming him directly. You just have to know Sawyer's role on each project to understand. Example:

My impression is that Chris doesn't call people out unless they've fucked him over (the owners) or tried to call him out first (Fenstermaker). That's not the case with Sawyer:

I don’t have any issues with Josh, he’s not part of the upper management I mention here (he wasn’t even Design Director until a while after I left, I believe), and I think he’s a good Project Director.

 

[Quillon]

Josh wrote Cook-Cook? That's pretty big accusation saying that its his character :D Note that he doesn't say who is the writer/designer nor does he say who specifically is responsible above it. Clearly he didn't like how Josh handled Fallout as its director, its what he cares about the most, but all we get is tid-bits here and there, he should openly criticize with naming names for our enjoyment!

Also why the fuck that thread isn't in RPG forums? I never look at other forums in Codex

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

The only reason Josh is off the hook is because he knows that picking fight with Sawyer wouldn't go down well on the Codex.