Incline Chris Avellone Appreciation Station

[stony3k]

IMHO this is why Obsidian is mediocre, because they're much more worried about timelines and shit than just making the game as great as it could be. In spite of all the cuts (to the good parts), the game was released in a buggy state and the publisher (Bethesda) fucked them due to the metacritic score anyway. They're trying so hard to be a successful business that they're failing at being a successful game studio.

 

[Beastro]

IMHO this is why Obsidian is mediocre, because they're much more worried about timelines and shit than just making the game as great as it could be. In spite of all the cuts (to the good parts), the game was released in a buggy state and the publisher (Bethesda) fucked them due to the metacritic score anyway. They're trying so hard to be a successful business that they're failing at being a successful game studio.

?

What I heard was more them just winging it and doing what they want only to encounter easily avoidable shit that eats up time until they suddenly realize they're low on time and rush.

It's part of why I called them amateurs, they act like modders full of talent but low on discipline so they produce good, but buggy products because they run out of time. The only person there that seemed to try to get everyone focused and ordered was someone that didn't know how to lead and treated people like robots almost (Wonder who that could be...).

 

[Prime Junta]

IMHO this is why Obsidian is mediocre, because they're much more worried about timelines and shit than just making the game as great as it could be. In spite of all the cuts (to the good parts), the game was released in a buggy state and the publisher (Bethesda) fucked them due to the metacritic score anyway. They're trying so hard to be a successful business that they're failing at being a successful game studio.

Yeah fuck them for refusing to work without pay

 

[Roguey]

An Obsidian not-so-concerned with timelines (or rather, given a timeline not-in-writing that's reneged on later) gives you an incoherent final act full of dropped plots.

New Vegas was more successful than Knights of the Old Republic 2 by all metrics.

 

[Lhynn]

An Obsidian not-so-concerned with timelines (or rather, given a timeline not-in-writing that's reneged on later) gives you an incoherent final act full of dropped plots.

New Vegas was more successful than Knights of the Old Republic 2 by all metrics.

What does "all metrics" entail. Because if we are talking gameplay elements kotor 2 was obviously better in a few.

 

[stony3k]

I'm not arguing that the business side is not important, I'm arguing that the way Obsidian deals with it has been bad for us as gamers. They're as scared of failure and taking risks as any AAA studio. After Troika went under, they've gone too far in the other direction.

 

[Roguey]

Because if we are talking gameplay elements kotor 2 was obviously better in a few.

I imagine only those nostalgic for the mid-00s think this.

 

[Lhynn]

I imagine only those nostalgic for the mid-00s think this.

Nonsense, characterization was much stronger in kotor 2 and the crafting was actually interesting.
Everything else is kind of relative and on most things NV handily beats Kotor 2 hands down (even if barely, we are still talking about gamebryo). But credit where credit is due.

Also i can never wrap my head around your comparisons. There are way too many factors that you chose to ignore for them to work in the way you present them.

Finally i do not, nor have ever suffered from nostalgia. Every time i make a judgement on something is because i put myself on neutral and see whats what.

 

[Roguey]

characterization was much stronger in kotor 2 and the crafting was actually interesting.

 

[Lhynn]

Personalizing your lightsaber was great, i never bothered with new vegas crafting, seemed unnecessary and the weight limit on hardcore kind of discouraged it.
As for characterization, kreia, G0-T0, HK-47 were great. Only thing that comes close in new vegas was from dead money.

 

[Roguey]

Personalizing your lightsaber was great

They did that because getting +2, +3 lightstabers with customized attributes would be ridiculous. Once you get a lightsaber, that's it. New Vegas had a different kind of weapon progression/customization.

 

[Lhynn]

It was cool because you could tinker with your weapon and because it really felt yours, even acknowledged your old one on the narrative. Its set up well and the payoff lasted for the entirety of the run.
New vegas sort of did the same with weapon mods, but it was never as cool or as interesting a concept, it couldnt be.

Anyway, new vegas is obviously the superior game, but not in every way. And more importantly, not for everyone.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Anyway, new vegas is obviously the superior game, but not in every way. And more importantly, not for everyone.

Uh... Sure?
Perhaps I'm missing your point, but did you just reduce your argument (in a comparison that I think you brought up) to "different people like different things"?

Mind you, I don't disagree, but it's... not very compelling rhetoric.

 

[Lhynn]

The point roguey made was that FNV was better by all metrics, i disagree. Not only because it has elements that are better, but also because said elements are a priority for a lot of people. Good characterization and a very personal story (the second one being more of a preference thing than objectively better tho). Also a minor addendum was that crafting was infact good and worked better within the gameplay.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

Cool. Thank you for explaining.

I definitely agree that KOTORII had stronger characters (although I actually rather liked Arcade, so wtf do I know?)

TBH though, I felt as though KOTORII's crafting system suffered from many of the same problems that PoE's did. I didn't delve into it as extensively, but too often I felt as though I was choosing between a +1 to dmg or a +1 to acc in a game that had already min/maxed my char for me.
FNV, by contrast, at least let me mod in (admittedly gamier) elements like a scope, laser sight, extended mag, etc, to the point where FNV's crafting system seemed to change up gameplay in a much more meaningful way than KOTORII's.

 

[Roguey]

When I said metrics I really just meant sales and reception but dragged this on anyway.

 

[Fenix]

I think it's also reflective of work culture. Where I'm from organizations tend to be flat and decisions tend to be taken by consensus within a small team responsible for a particular area. You have distinct roles of course, but you generally speaking don't have anyone below the CEO who is the one who "makes the calls." You want to lead? Make a proposal and sell it to the team. Want to become a leader? Make more of them, and eventually the team will come to you for advice.

This kind of anarchy works only in small teams, like from 2 to 6 people.
If your team is bigger, then all this begins to resemble "happy hippy camp", and in the end such "voting" only reproduce most commom mistakes.
I had no expierience of such work (I even have no job lol) but I have read many times about such situation, such management problm since it is a common problem, and everything indicates that flat, horizontal ties work (if at all) works in small teams, like really small, and if you have big team, you need hierarchy, vertical ties.

 

[Prime Junta]

This kind of anarchy works only in small teams, like from 2 to 6 people.
If your team is bigger, then all this begins to resemble "happy hippy camp", and in the end such "voting" only reproduce most commom mistakes.
I had no expierience of such work (I even have no job lol) but I have read many times about such situation, such management problm since it is a common problem, and everything indicates that flat, horizontal ties work (if at all) works in small teams, like really small, and if you have big team, you need hierarchy, vertical ties.

Where I work we're about 60 people ATM.

 

[Fenix]

Where I work we're about 60 people ATM.

Then it is - you don't work efficient like you could, or you are lucky and this doesn't hopple you, or I don't know. )

I even remembered some scientific article that I hope someone of you will find, there was said that some research were undertaken, in management fiels, and it was discovered that the team losing manageability and sufferr drop in effficience if it larger then 6.
As I rememeber (detait for you that you can find it easier) those studies confirmed some empirically derived law - you know something like Murphy's laws, I had book where all such laws were printed in one book, and this one was one of them.
It was very interesting article that I remember, sadly didn't kept in a text file.

 

[80Maxwell08]

EDIT: Beaten by 2 minutes by skacky in the game's thread.

 

[DosBuster]

 

[Prime Junta]

I even remembered some scientific article that I hope someone of you will find, there was said that some research were undertaken, in management fiels, and it was discovered that the team losing manageability and sufferr drop in effficience if it larger then 6.

This is true. It doesn't mean you need to introduce hierarchy though. You do need to introduce structure and process, but that's not the same thing at all.

 

[Taxnomore]

 

[InD_ImaginE]

Well Dishonored was fun and quite good gameplay wise. And this is by the same developer yes? Seemed to be just generic corridor shooter FPS though, I hope is not a waste of MCA.

Inb4, MCA join Bethesda full-time and working as narrative designer for TES franchise.

 

[Excidium II]

WHy the fuck did you take a picture of your screen?